Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

[southeastone]

Jealous?

Of what?

 

[southeastone]

IMF says the consequences fpr the UK ecnomy of Brexit range from deal (bad) to no deal (worse) IMF says no-deal Brexit will hit UK economy

The all knowing IMF who have got so many things wrong even they have lost count, that's funny

 

[eurotop40]

Of what?

Of people being international and escaping the status of “subjects” of HM...

 

[southeastone]

[QUnot at all, happy to be a British citizenOTE="eurotop40, post: 7614587, member: 135782"]Of people being international and escaping the status of “subjects” of HM...[/QUOTE]

 

[Drifterwood]

Of people being international and escaping the status of “subjects” of HM...

Humour not hate.

You'll enjoy this.

 

[eurotop40]

 

[dandelion]

I see a government report is proposing there should be no restriction on immigrant high skills workers. Call to scrap high-skilled migrants cap

Currently the government has imposed such a cap, and the result has been such nonsenses as the NHS not being able to get doctors because they are refused visas to come here. Obviously this would become much more difficult if we leave the EU, because currently EU doctors do not need visas.

The truth is the Uk has an economy reliant on imported workers. The problem is not that people are allowed to come here, but that we are asking them to come here because government believes we need them here. leaving the EU would do nothing whatever to solve this problem, and it is very clear the politicians do not intend to restrict immigration, despite pretending they would if we leave the EU.

They have always had the power to restrict immigratin totally from outside the EU, but also from within by making life more difficult for would be immigrants. They have chosen to encourage immigration. Nor have they taken steps to limit demand for immigrants, such as boosting training within the UK.

Of course, the basic problem is that to expand an economy you need workers. If ther arent enough workers, then government must impose a policy to restrict growth of the economy one way or another.

While this is about skilled workers, who exactly is going to tell the pensioner brexit voters that they will no longer get a care asitant to help them, because the policy they called for will ban low paid care workers coming to the UK?

Brexit - if it is allowed to happen - will not reduce immigration to the UK (unless it causes a recession, of course, so fewer wokers are needed)

 

[Drifterwood]

The lovely irony is that the racists in the UKIP Brexit camp don't want non whites in the UK and they deliberately confused Muslim immigration with European immigration in their Brexit campaign. Now they are being told post Brexit there is no justifiable reason to prefer European migrants above anyone else wishing to migrate to the UK for low paid work.

And the real kick to the nuts of Brexit racists is that their Brexit has devalued the £ so much that the UK is no longer attractive to European migrant workers. The U.K. can now only afford non European migrant workers, exactly what the racists really don't want.

Isn't the world of unintended consequences funny.

 

[Drifterwood]

Dands, the truth that may be beginning to dawn on some, is that in a post Brexit currency devalued UK, there are a number of things to add to the list that ordinary Brits will not be able to afford. Housing, health, education and care are already pretty crap for the majority. You can add fresh local food, holidays, cars etc.

Around 55% of Brits already get a pretty crap deal in the UK, Brexit will push that bar to 60%.

 

[Drifterwood]

And for those with an open mind, did you hear the Honda guys talking about the impact of a no deal, or even a bad deal, I.e. one with border controls?

If you understand the costings in running manufacturing, they were saying that tariffs could be 10% and additional logistics, around 5%. UK manufactured cars would be at least 15% more expensive for export. Productivity would also fall.

This is one of the reasons that British industry disappeared as the Empire went and before we joined the common market. Leaving the common market means that we will lose these industries again.

Sadly Brexit doesn't have anyone with the first idea of global business. To be fair, not many people do.

 

[Drifterwood]

To simplify this discussion, to what actually matters when you have a vote, Brexiteers told people that they would be better off post Brexit.

Let's say that the 55% who get a crappy deal in the UK would be reduced to 50% post Brexit. But what was dismissed as project fear, warned that this could rise to 60%.

Project fear is looking like project probable and Boris is looking like project pie in the sky.

 

[eurotop40]

To simplify this discussion, to what actually matters when you have a vote, Brexiteers told people that they would be better off post Brexit.
Let's say that the 55% who get a crappy deal in the UK would be reduced to 50% post Brexit. But what was dismissed as project fear, warned that this could rise to 60%.
Project fear is looking like project probable and Boris is looking like project pie in the sky.

You know what is appalling to me? It seems that most politicians in the UK (as in most other European countries) are not competent in their areas, i.e. a Boris Johnson is a history graduate. Please: does that make him competent in international relations? I doubt it very strongly. Basically, he can only write fairy tales. That's probably what people want to hear though.

 

[185248]

The deal is done. No matter how close or how far, it is done.

I think as a Unified force in the world, the UK, US, AUS, Japan... everyone of the many smaller Asian and pacific nations can form a peaceful alliance with China and regional nations.

What I find at the moment is, we need to get rid of the dead wood holding us all and the world back from moving forward into a new region of human understanding.

Get rid of the fucking greed. Close the tax loopholes, close the tax havens. Then many of us would at least feel like we are being treated equally instead of tax cuts to the rich...rising prices for goods in the US which will support the rich, and tax concessions to companies which support the rich.

Sorry, in the past. The rich always lost their heads. Their families as well. Seems they do not learn.


OK...so who is going to buy the products? The Chinese? Umm, they make 85% of what is on your desk, in your shed out on the street already. So, at best you could sell back 20-25%.....

Anything less than 50-50 is not a fair deal. You are losing and in deficit.

 

[Jason]

The UK government's majority since the 2017 election has been tiny.

Right now the UK has a House of Commons of 650. There are 316 Con, plus the confidence and supply of 9 DUP = 325. There are all sorts of little modifications which mean that this is a majority (Sinn Fein are abstentionist, speakers don't vote, a couple of independents who vote with the government.) However it is very tight.

Lab, LibDem, SNP, PC and Green have all said they will vote against Chequers - that's 310. Additionally 27 Conservative MPs have made a public declaration saying they will vote against (and in reality the number could be 80). We're actually looking at a situation where it is unthinkable that Chequers would pass the UK parliament.

What would pass is a free trade deal. Con+DUP will vote for it, possibly one or two others. This is the reality for the EU. It's now a free trade deal or no deal.

 

[dandelion]

We're actually looking at a situation where it is unthinkable that Chequers would pass the UK parliament.

You have a very odd turn of phrase Jason. Unthinkable that a compromise deal no one understands could actually happen? Unthinkable?

All the politicians in the country seem to be thinking it might, including actually you. Unthinkable would be if the Uk leaves the EU, and the consequences for the economy. Cameron believed leaving the EU was unthinkable and winning the referendum would be easy, which is why he put up such a lacklustre campaign where the tories refused to attack each other. The direct cost of the referendum result was £100bn in expenditure by the government and Bof E. The total cost of that result to the nation is probably already £1tn because of the lost growth which has already happened and which is now unstoppable whatever we do next. The cost if we actually leave is obviously a lot more.

Leavers have no idea whatever what the Uk could do as an alternative to EU membership. The EU will proceed to do what its charter requires, which is whatever benefits its members most. So their aim will be to remove as much industry as they can from the Uk into the EU. That has been one aim of the EU from its creation, to benefit them as against outsiiders. We joined because this was the case, so we would be beneficiaries instead of losers. Yet just as a world trade war is getting started and the end is in sight for globalisation, the UK has been persuaded to destroy its own industrial base.

Why do you imagine Russia is going round poisoning spies in Britain? because it has nothing to fear from antagonising the British government, and everything to gain from being seen as capable of laughing at Britain. It sees it has won a major victory over the Uk by its contribution to encouraging the Uk to leave the EU. What contribution? Anyone seriously believe now the Russians did not engage in influencing the vote? With such a tiny lead for leave, they very probably have a secret report on Putin's desk from the secret sevice claiming their efforts were what tipped it to leave.

Though many people could claim the same when the result was so close. Cameron. Boris. May.

Cameron refused to take any further part in the charade that tories accept leaving the EU. Boris has boxed himself in a corner after a result he did not want. May...agreed to try to sort out the mess and somehow keep the UK inside the EU.

Its pretty clear that tories oppose a 'no deal' outcome. Leavers are trying to dress up a 'Canada' deal as if it amounted to something more than 'no deal'. But any deal where we lose our current favoured access to the EU should be seen as amounting to 'no deal', because that is what it is.

Tories also oppose a Norway deal, or chequers deal, or any compromise position.

So what is left is remaining in the EU. And if the tories do not deliver this, they know their party will be destroyed by the economic fallout which will take decades to put right. Labour is studiously avoiding having any part in brexit, so it can squarely distance itself from blame when it all goes horribly wrong.

 

[dandelion]

Oh, and this morning news says EU leaders call for a second referendum in the Uk. Whatever result that might have, plainly the EU still think remaining in the EU is perfectly possible to do.

 

[southeastone]

The EU wants to sanction Hungary by removing its voting rights in the EU.

Poland will likely block it but if it didn't a whole nation of people would be ruled by Brussels with no say in the policies of the EU for electing a government the EU doesn't like.

Think about that.

 

[Drifterwood]

You have a very odd turn of phrase Jason. Unthinkable that a compromise deal no one understands could actually happen? Unthinkable?

All the politicians in the country seem to be thinking it might, including actually you. Unthinkable would be if the Uk leaves the EU, and the consequences for the economy. Cameron believed leaving the EU was unthinkable and winning the referendum would be easy, which is why he put up such a lacklustre campaign where the tories refused to attack each other. The direct cost of the referendum result was £100bn in expenditure by the government and Bof E. The total cost of that result to the nation is probably already £1tn because of the lost growth which has already happened and which is now unstoppable whatever we do next. The cost if we actually leave is obviously a lot more.

Leavers have no idea whatever what the Uk could do as an alternative to EU membership. The EU will proceed to do what its charter requires, which is whatever benefits its members most. So their aim will be to remove as much industry as they can from the Uk into the EU. That has been one aim of the EU from its creation, to benefit them as against outsiiders. We joined because this was the case, so we would be beneficiaries instead of losers. Yet just as a world trade war is getting started and the end is in sight for globalisation, the UK has been persuaded to destroy its own industrial base.

Why do you imagine Russia is going round poisoning spies in Britain? because it has nothing to fear from antagonising the British government, and everything to gain from being seen as capable of laughing at Britain. It sees it has won a major victory over the Uk by its contribution to encouraging the Uk to leave the EU. What contribution? Anyone seriously believe now the Russians did not engage in influencing the vote? With such a tiny lead for leave, they very probably have a secret report on Putin's desk from the secret sevice claiming their efforts were what tipped it to leave.

Though many people could claim the same when the result was so close. Cameron. Boris. May.

Cameron refused to take any further part in the charade that tories accept leaving the EU. Boris has boxed himself in a corner after a result he did not want. May...agreed to try to sort out the mess and somehow keep the UK inside the EU.

Its pretty clear that tories oppose a 'no deal' outcome. Leavers are trying to dress up a 'Canada' deal as if it amounted to something more than 'no deal'. But any deal where we lose our current favoured access to the EU should be seen as amounting to 'no deal', because that is what it is.

Tories also oppose a Norway deal, or chequers deal, or any compromise position.

So what is left is remaining in the EU. And if the tories do not deliver this, they know their party will be destroyed by the economic fallout which will take decades to put right. Labour is studiously avoiding having any part in brexit, so it can squarely distance itself from blame when it all goes horribly wrong.

But Dands, 27 Tory cunts have the right to bring down the government and fuck us up.

That's the sovereignty we should be fighting for. That's real democracy.

 

[dandelion]

The EU wants to sanction Hungary by removing its voting rights in the EU. Poland will likely block it but if it didn't a whole nation of people would be ruled by Brussels with no say in the policies of the EU for electing a government the EU doesn't like.Think about that.

Think about this. The Uk is planning to cease being a member of the EU, but it desperatly needs to remain a member of all the trading arrnagements. Just ask Theresa May!

Hungary might have got itself into trouble by breaking EU rules. The UK is choosing to voluntarily give up its power to control the EU and simply become a rule taker.

And all leavers can think of as an alternative is to watch th Uk economy melt away by leaving with no deal.

 

[southeastone]

Think about this. The Uk is planning to cease being a member of the EU, but it desperatly needs to remain a member of all the trading arrnagements. Just ask Theresa May!

Hungary might have got itself into trouble by breaking EU rules. The UK is choosing to voluntarily give up its power to control the EU and simply become a rule taker.

And all leavers can think of as an alternative is to watch th Uk economy melt away by leaving with no deal.

Did you listen to Junkers speech, vetoes are going to be a thing of the past, by hook or by crook this will be done