Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

seventiesdemon

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My Dad bred racing pigeons for the royal lofts many a year ago..............not that she would know this. Was in the day when many Aussies thought Britannia thought many nations was strength.....................now it thinks one nation is it's future.

Answer me why the UK wishes to hold on to the Commonwealth...........yet it does not wish to be part of the EU?

Most of the argument seemed to be it did not wish to observe the rulings from the majority of EU nations.

Yet, when it comes to the Commonwealth, it wishes to sublimmily retain overall power?
 
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seventiesdemon

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Australia could have become a member of the EU...............but it seems no-one asked. There could have been an Euro-Pacific economic trading power.

There was once...back in the day....East India Trading.........................but it was ignored, we were left for dead because we were the end of the Earth..

Now you guys are struggling to survive in your own zone.

We can still become a rich trading partner. Just think about it for a moment.....

My suggestion is that the UK can become a direct conduit between China ---Aus---Europe, I suggest we have connections here you dream of. Just think about it.
 

Jason

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My Dad bred racing pigeons for the royal lofts many a year ago..............not that she would know this. Was in the day when many Aussies thought Britannia thought many nations was strength.....................now it thinks one nation is it's future.

Answer me why the UK wishes to hold on to the Commonwealth...........yet it does not wish to be part of the EU?

Most of the argument seemed to be it did not wish to observe the rulings from the majority of EU nations.

Yet, when it comes to the Commonwealth, it wishes to sublimmily retain overall power?

The Commonwealth is an association of nations. The UK has no power over it But is just one of the 53. It exists as long as its members consider it beneficial. It is not a political grouping or a trading bloc. Trade agreements cannot be made with the Commonwealth.

I think the UK does want to remain part of the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is mostly English-speaking Common Law jurisdictions with similar government structures. It makes sense for all members to be talking.

Brexit is just one feature in a changing world. We are seeing mutual need for strengthening of the five eyes, so UK, Aus, NZ, USA and Canada. This is around the needs of all. For the UK it seems that the Commonwealth connections will make trade deals with all individual nations that little bit quicker and easier.

The Commonwealth does offer some interesting global possibilities. Right now South Sudan has applied to join. We all know the problems of South Sudan. Membership - if granted - may give a mechanism for providing the support the nation needs.
 

seventiesdemon

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It's not beneficial to us, it is to you, and the conservatives. It is a political grouping.

Trade agreements can be made within the Commonwealth. Just like we hold Commonwealth Games.

No, the only reason why the Commonwealth exists is because you started it. It encompasses the globe...For good or bad...it does.

Brexit is a throwback to nationalism, plain and simple. If you took Star Trek and imposed Brexit you would be the Klingons. Cling on.

You had better hope with our rapidly expanding military...outstripping you 10 fold you can keep up...we have to with Donald Trumps brainless and his Secretary Of States fuckwit ramblings.

The Commonwealth maybe your only way out of the shit you have found yourselves in. Fucking stop loging into LPSG and procrastinating.
 
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Jason

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Well @seventiesdemon if a majority of Australians feel as you feel then you should leave the Commonwealth. For that matter maybe you should have a vote on whether the Queen is head of state. Oh, wait, you've already done that.

The Commonwealth is not directly a part of the solution for the Brexit conundrum, but it has some indirect use for the UK in terms of 52 relationships and frequent meetings.

My thought is that Brexit is a part of a global rebalancing. We're seeing an oppressive China with ever more power, a resurgent Russia, chaos throughout the Arab world and an inflexible EU. I think the new order will be the Five Eyes working together more closely. However if the people of Australia really don't want this then it will be four eyes.

A sleeping giant is India. Brexit has little direct impact on India. There seems to be little dialogue. However there are opportunities for India as well as for others.
 
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seventiesdemon

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Well, for your info, when we did have a referendum on leaving and becoming a republic....John Howard...known as the liar.....rigged it by saying the only way a President could be elected was by a majority of Parliament. There was no way..and he knew, that Aussies would leave it up to politicians to elect their President.

Brexit is an Unbalancing jason. Your little itty bitty British Isles is on the verge of collapse.

Yes, we are seeing an oppressive China and Russia forming alliances, while your government dilly dally around in separation, argue points of law, births of royal underlings....you don't think this is being taken advantage of? You just said it yourself.

You have mentioned the 5 Eyes before....................yet your nation can only spare 1 aging old ship to sail the China Sea....reminiscent of your Singapore will never fall, Titanic will never sink.. and Donald Trump bravado living in fantasy land..

We have dwelling in the centre of Australia the US's first eye, it's first and, second line of intelligent defence..

You used us for nuclear testing and said goodbye.

We appreciate you sending a worn out battlecruiser from the seventies to back us up. It just goes to show how weak your position in the world has become. Keep talking it up............while those above you..way above you by birth alone live in luxury, given the best dental, medical care, car insurance, drive Aston Martins, Range Rovers....absolutely everything your taxpayer can provide.
 
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seventiesdemon

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1024px-How_to_Vote_Yes_1999.jpg
 

g0nz0

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A sleeping giant is India. Brexit has little direct impact on India. There seems to be little dialogue. However there are opportunities for India as well as for others.

Interestingly, India has pegged trade negotiations with extra visas. How does that fit within an increasingly xenophobic post-Brexit Britain? or is it just Europeans you guys don't want "taking British jobs"...

The interview with Tony Blair I linked to previously very clearly spelt out the fallacy of small countries like the UK striking out without alliances in the modern world of super states and trading blocs (the US, China, India, the EU) and medium countries (Indonesia, Pakistan, Brasil, Russia)...
 

Jason

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Interestingly, India has pegged trade negotiations with extra visas. How does that fit within an increasingly xenophobic post-Brexit Britain? or is it just Europeans you guys don't want "taking British jobs"...

The interview with Tony Blair I linked to previously very clearly spelt out the fallacy of small countries like the UK striking out without alliances in the modern world of super states and trading blocs (the US, China, India, the EU) and medium countries (Indonesia, Pakistan, Brasil, Russia)...

I've just posted in the HK thread the idea of the UK giving standard UK passports to many HongKongers. This has been taken up by the UK's most popular tabloid, The Sun. I think it has popular support.

India is complex, but more visas for Indians probably would be something the UK would support. The details are important, but the basic idea is fine.

There's no problem with visas for EU nationals - but they have to be visas which the UK grants, not an automatic entitlement. Ireland of course has special status. @g0nz0 is welcome at all times. He can even travel to Wales and meet @Joll
 
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dandelion

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Not really Jason. Its still the same remainers in parliamenet. And BJ may blow all he can, but he still doesnt really want to leave the EU. Remember he was caught on camera looking horrified that he had won for leave !

I've just posted in the HK thread the idea of the UK giving standard UK passports to many HongKongers. This has been taken up by the UK's most popular tabloid, The Sun. I think it has popular support.
Do you mean the 55% of the UK who would now vote remain and are more welcoming of incomers would suport it?

India is complex, but more visas for Indians probably would be something the UK would support.
It has been clearly established that many of the most committed leavers hate immigrants, and that is one big reason why they voted to leave the EU. So you are saying they will not get what they were led to expect?

Mind, I dont think they will either. It was always a lie to win their votes.
 
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dandelion

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Oh...the UK sends 1 aging battleship. Yay.
Well technically the last british battleship was scrapped quite some time ago. We have had cuts in the armed forces for the last 9 years, basically ever since the conservative govenment took office.

Well @seventiesdemon My thought is that Brexit is a part of a global rebalancing.
Yes indeed. It will see the final vestiges of Uk power destroyed, the uK split up into constituent nations going their own way, and a sell off of yet more of the Uk to the chinese as the pound tumbles. Russia will see revenge for sanctions we imposed on them.
 
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Adrian69702006

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From my blog today:

On Friday we learned that Ken Clarke, the Member for Rushcliffe, had emerged as another possible contender for the role of caretaker Prime Minister, should the Government lose a no confidence vote early in September. According to this morning’s Daily Telegraph it would appear that Mr Clarke didn’t actually put himself forward as a contender for the role but has signified his willingness to take it, were greatness to be thrust upon him. Mr Clarke is a respected elder statesman but, even if his premiership had the tacit consent of the opposition parties, we very much doubt whether it would be supported by the majority of Conservative party members and voters.

There are essentially two reasons why we think Mr Clarke would be unsuited to the role, particularly given the difficulties of the times in which we are living.

Firstly, at seventy-nine he is too old for a job which would tax the strength of most men and women half his age. At seventy, Lord Palmerston still holds the record of being the oldest person to become Prime Minister the first-time round. That was in 1855 and he didn’t have a hostile press, a literate public and, a fast-moving electronic media to contend with. Sir Winston Churchill demonstrated exceptional leadership as Prime Minister during the darkest days of World War II and, writing his own speeches, was no mean orator. However, during his somewhat shorter post war premiership, it rapidly became apparent that he had passed the height of his powers. In much more recent times, Downing Street aged both Mr Blair and Mrs May, neither of whom were what the world would call senior citizens. We would very much prefer Mr Clarke to retire, at a time of his choosing, whilst he still has health and strength on his side, rather than be retired by a stroke or heart attack as the result of trying to a job to which he was no longer equal.

Secondly, the Europhile Mr Clarke is acknowledged unreconstructed Remainer. That would no doubt please some people and he could probably command cross party support in Parliament. However, it would put him at a grave disadvantage in trying to deliver a meaningful Brexit. Although we have no hard proof of it, we have a well-founded suspicion that Mrs May’s Remainer credentials put her at a disadvantage when trying to negotiate with our EU colleagues and that it’s a weakness which was exploited fairly ruthlessly. If we are right about that, it would be even truer in Mr Clarke’s case. It gives us no pleasure to say so, but we fear the danger of a non-existent Brexit - or one which was so soft as to be meaningless – would be greater under a Clarke premiership than a Corbyn one. As things stand, we believe there is a good chance of the Government surviving a September confidence vote, albeit perhaps by the slenderest of margins, and if that happens there will be no reason for Mr Johnson to stand aside. If, however, the worst happens and he must, we think the caretaker Prime Minister must not only be a Conservative and a Brexiteer but have the advantages of relative youth on his side.
 

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The idea of a caretaker PM is deeply flawed. Events mean that whoever is PM has to be capable of doing every task. For starters it is the PM who has the nuclear codes. I think MPs will pull back from the idea of a caretaker.

A vote of no confidence may not be called. If Corbyn feels there is no chance at all then what is the point?

If it is called, Johnson may just squeak through. It probably needs some Labour MPs to abstain, which is possible. If he doesn't then it is up to someone else to demonstrate that they can command confidence. It is not the case that everyone who voted against Johnson would fall in behind another candidate. I think we're close to showing that there is no viable candidate.

Johnson would have another chance to demonstrate that he can command confidence. The scenario could be that he loses a vote, a couple of weeks of muddle, then people recognise that he is the only possibility and he gets confidence.

If no one can demonstrate that they have confidence then we go for a General Election - after 31st October.

Much wild depend on the polls. I think many Lab MPs will realise that they will lose their seats (assuming Johnson remains high) and will want to avoid an election. I'm increasingly feeling that Johnson will (just) squeak through.

The risk is that the EU makes some unilateral decision to delay Brexit. In effect they say that they will change nothing on 31st Oct and if an incoming government wants to rescind A50 they will treat UK as not having left. This would mean that an election would become a re-run of the Brexit referendum. However I think there are a lot of obstacles here.

Tidier for Johnson would be for Brexit to happen then an election called. I think it would probably be an Autumn budget (which may or may not be passed by the Commons) followed by a January election. I doubt an election could be fitted in before Christmas - though I suppose it is technically possible.
 
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g0nz0

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Apparently, after saying he’d wait until Europe came to him, Boris is now planning on scooting around Europe telling European leaders it would be an historic mistake to think he is bluffing about a hard Brexit. The funny thing is — nobody in Europe thinks he is bluffing. Merkel’s recent comments underline this. We know he is nuts.

This isn’t a game from the European perspective. The brinksmanship play by the UK had been widely flagged almost three years ago, so it is surprising nobody now - and Europe has no options other than the existing withdrawal agreement to offer even if the UK wants to chubb up and go fully hard Brexit. There simply is no other preferential deal ready and waiting to swoop in from the wings.

There are no cards left for Boris to play, no new moves to make that weren’t thought about and considered by the EU 3 years ago. And the EU knows Boris. He has written bullshit about Europe for almost 30 years, making Trump-esque shit up with an utter disregard to the facts, and he is certainly not viewed as a credible politician. This is what Europe thinks of Boris:

“The British people deserve much, much better political leadership than what they’ve got. And now one of the worst is becoming prime minister” ...
Source:
This is how Europe’s press reacted to ‘shameless clown’ Boris Johnson taking control

So Boris can continue waffle and bullshit about confiding in article 24, paragraph 5(b) of the GATT agreement while being totally ignorant of paragraph 5(c), (‘I thought you were a man of detail!’: Boris Johnson admits he does not know details of his own Brexit plan) — his continuing detachment from reality unfortunately cannot but fail to help shape it to his will...

Boris is obviously a charlatan full of bluster and rogue charm, but ultimately aimless. And although he is not ignorant, details very evidently seem to escape his ability to understand and process them. To paraphrase the British bard, he is ...

“... that poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: his Brexit strategy a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”

@Jason, in many ways Boris is your caretaker PM. He has a tenuous majority in parliament, and untested support amongst the electorate. He has threatened to prorogue parliament if he loses confidence in order to force through a hard Brexit.
More interesting is that there is precedence for this in British history (Opinion: Boris Johnson could learn a lot from Pitt the Younger when it comes to no-deal Brexit). I wonder if history will judge Boris and the Tories in the same way in the years to come...
 

Jason

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@g0nz0 the parallel with Pitt the Younger is fun but I don't think it is more than that. Pitt was 24 when he became PM. Somehow I don't think a 24 year old could become PM today.

However I think Boris does have a trajectory which leads to a General Election victory. And then:
* The boundary changes go through. This gets rid of the gerrymander that has given Labour maybe 20 too many MPs. Think about it right now - without the gerrymander we would have a majority Conservative government right now.
* Labour falls to bits. I don't think the defeated party would rally behind an anti-Semitic pro-terrorist Marxist.
* Support for Scottish independence dwindles post-Brexit. Scotland both outside UK and EU would be in a difficult position.

Johnson is not Hamlet. He's not a clown either, though he puts forward the image of the genial buffoon. What I haven't decided is whether he wants no deal. I'm inclined to think probably yes. As such the views of the EU media about him really don't matter. Indeed the more negative the media and politicians are the easier it is to bring off no deal.

The EU is harder to all because it is the EC, the nation states, and even different views within nations. I doubt there is really anything that can be called an EU view. I don't think the EU likes the idea of no deal, but I'm not convinced there is the political will to do anything about it.
 

g0nz0

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@Jason, I think it has always been clear that the EU doesn’t like the idea of no deal, but you’re right - there is nothing other than the withdrawal agreement on offer.

The age of 24 is an immaterial fact - the more interesting parallels are overplaying your mandate vs. respecting the house. Boris wants to be Prime Minister, and commander-in-chief of the Tory party. Anything else is suitable for use as a means to an end, including no deal Brexit, or indeed Brexit itself. Boris would sell his granny to achieve his aspirations, including selling his country down the Suwannee. Throw NI or Scotland under that red £350million Brexit bus? Collateral damage.

As I see it, Boris likely has two trajectories to an election:
  1. The first is post Oct 31st where he has achieved the short-sighted immediate goal of Brexit by having taken the UK out, and thus gutting support for Farage’s Brexit party, in much the same way UKIP disappeared up its own arsehole post the Brexit referendum.
  2. The second is to call an election pre-Oct 31st - where to fight his enemies he needs to double down on the most erect approach to Brexit possible... So again, hard to see how Boris (who, lets face it, never really seems like the most ardent of Brexiteers other than for the purposes of political expediency) can pull any emergency brake on this train he’s set rolling down the hill at full tilt.
I respect your confidence but I’m not at all certain of your arithmetic that Boris is guaranteed any sort of majority post a General Election - I have absolutely no idea how that would go, and would have to rely on and confide entirely in article 5(b) for that one...
 

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The idea of a caretaker PM is deeply flawed. Events mean that whoever is PM has to be capable of doing every task. For starters it is the PM who has the nuclear codes. I think MPs will pull back from the idea of a caretaker.
Really dont get you. Anyone think BJ is the sort of person who should have nuclear launch codes? But dont worry, the UK isnt allowed to launch nuclear missiles unless the US tells us to (thats what the 'special relationship' means). so Trump will make sure thy are only used sensibly.

Much wild depend on the polls.
You mean, conservatives wont call an election unless they believe, like last time, that they stand a good chance of losing? The last thing the conservatve party wants is a stong majority. What it needs is an excuse to get out of government. Before calling an election -just like last time - it needs polling which suggests superficially it could win, but actually masks a huge weakness in its position. What happened was that the dont knows and remainers all came together behind labour, and they would this time too. Oly ther are more of them now. The country was 55% remain at the last poll I saw.

Which is a vert very ood reason to get out of government fast if you have pledged to leave the EU, but actually its very plain most people do not want to.
 
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