Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

[DiamondJoe]

It came up when Varadkar advised the EC to change their tone. If you spend half an hour searching you will find it.

The key point is that we are going to have people picking over this allegation. The UK government will already have done so. If there is something in it, it may well be that the UK government sees no sense in acting now - but it may later. Or events may force it. NI seems set to have a right wing creationist nut job as leader of DUP, and this is going to stoke tensions in NI. If he can get hold of a bit of paper that says EU threatened to stoke violence then we can all be sure it will be published.

Pfft!

 

[dandelion]

Being free and poor would not be a good mix!

It is however, more the rule than the xception for newly inependen countries. They become poorer fter independence. The same seems likely for the UK leaving the EU. The exception you outline for the US would seem to be because a numbe of small nations united themselves into one larger alternative to rule by England.

The EU needs to decide what it wants to be. The eurozone part of the EU will need to become one sovereign nation with ability to set fiscal policy, determine taxes, declare war, as one nation sign peace treaties and other treaties if it is to succeed much longer.

It isnt obvious to me why that should be. The US is a very obvious example where members of some collective retain major freedoms, in pretty much all the issues which concern people day to day.

They see unification as something to be done despite the will of the people of the EU, who are ignorant and need to be governed by them.

The same might be said of the Westminster government, who took the Uk out of the EU despite this only having active support of about 1/3 of the people, and indeed a net overall against it happenening by the time they did it. At the last election before brexit, more people voted for remain inclined parties than leave, but con left anyway.

For the UK there is a practical issue. The Eurocrats are acting as enemies of the UK.

Er...the sort of enemies who have made Britain rich again as a member of the EU?



People will have noticd the recent news that UK ships can no longer fish in Norwegian waters. Which is a disaster for the Uk fishing industry. The sort of 'success' likely to spread to very many industries after Brexit.

There is a very interesting shortage of skilled staff shaping up for the hospitality industry, becuase they cn no longer get european labour. The logical outcome has to be fewer such jobs paying more money, so they become of interest to UK citizens. Brexit means...costs more to eat out.

 

[Drifterwood]

Interesting that the Brexit Anti Vaxers won't be travelling to Europe this year. Banned!

 

[Jason]

[QUOTE="dandelion, post: 54908331, member: 467489"
The same might be said of the Westminster government, who took the Uk out of the EU despite this only having active support of about 1/3 of the people, and indeed a net overall against it happenening by the time they did it. At the last election before brexit, more people voted for remain inclined parties than leave, but con left anyway.
[/QUOTE]

Quite what counts as a democratic mandate is an issue which has been fought in the UK over the Brexit issue.

1) the 52/48 vote raises the issue of the didn’t votes. My view is that they have implicitly said they accept the decision of the majority who vote. I rather think @dandelion you see them as supporting the status quo.
2) the status of the outcome was disputed. In theory all referendums in UK are advisory. The Westminster class thought they could say no, This is the Brecow approach. Bollocks to Brexit, I know better because I’m better than the voters.
3) the 2019 election was one where people voted for the package of policies of political parties. At best it is a very rough gauge of opinion on anything. This said we had a clear Conservative victory, and the party had certainly made Brexit their big campaigning issue.

Curiously in a democracy it is rare to get more than half of the electorate (so including don’t knows and don’t votes) supporting anything. And when it is not a binary choice it is all but impossible. If we waited for 50+ for anything then noth8ng much would ever happen.

 

[Drifterwood]

[QUOTE="dandelion, post: 54908331, member: 467489"
The same might be said of the Westminster government, who took the Uk out of the EU despite this only having active support of about 1/3 of the people, and indeed a net overall against it happening by the time they did it. At the last election before brexit, more people voted for remain inclined parties than leave, but con left anyway.

Quite what counts as a democratic mandate is an issue which has been fought in the UK over the Brexit issue.

1) the 52/48 vote raises the issue of the didn’t votes. My view is that they have implicitly said they accept the decision of the majority who vote. I rather think @dandelion you see them as supporting the status quo.
2) the status of the outcome was disputed. In theory all referendums in UK are advisory. The Westminster class thought they could say no, This is the Bercow approach. Bollocks to Brexit, I know better because I’m better than the voters.
3) the 2019 election was one where people voted for the package of policies of political parties. At best it is a very rough gauge of opinion on anything. This said we had a clear Conservative victory, and the party had certainly made Brexit their big campaigning issue.

Curiously in a democracy it is rare to get more than half of the electorate (so including don’t knows and don’t votes) supporting anything. And when it is not a binary choice it is all but impossible. If we waited for 50+ for anything then noth8ng much would ever happen.[/QUOTE]

Do we wish to have a discussion or debate about democracy? The culture of intelligent debate has all but gone. The quality of the 70's EU debate between Jenkins and Benn is a fading memory of a now seeming golden age of considered debate.

If you are Jason, you could see Brexit as a great victory for democracy, if you are me, you see it as a clear sign of the increasing failure of democracy. Democracy has been perverted by Ayatollahs, Putins, Erdogans, a whole series of African Dictators, how sad to see Democracy in the UK being abused in a slightly similar way. It may be the thin end of the wedge, but democracy is abused to endorse these people, it was abused by Trump and it was abused by Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson.

What does this type of democracy prove? That people aren't very nice when you give them an anonymous ballot? that too many are simply too stupid to have their own opinion and that some are clever enough to manipulate enough people to win elections.

What does this achieve?

One thing is an abusers paradise.

 

[DiamondJoe]

Quite what counts as a democratic mandate is an issue which has been fought in the UK over the Brexit issue.

1) the 52/48 vote raises the issue of the didn’t votes. My view is that they have implicitly said they accept the decision of the majority who vote. I rather think @dandelion you see them as supporting the status quo.
2) the status of the outcome was disputed. In theory all referendums in UK are advisory. The Westminster class thought they could say no, This is the Bercow approach. Bollocks to Brexit, I know better because I’m better than the voters.
3) the 2019 election was one where people voted for the package of policies of political parties. At best it is a very rough gauge of opinion on anything. This said we had a clear Conservative victory, and the party had certainly made Brexit their big campaigning issue.

Curiously in a democracy it is rare to get more than half of the electorate (so including don’t knows and don’t votes) supporting anything. And when it is not a binary choice it is all but impossible. If we waited for 50+ for anything then noth8ng much would ever happen.

We're still fighting a lost referendum from nearly 5 years ago? As much as I didn't like the outcome... it's gone!

I think your 2nd from last para is instructive, "What does this type of democracy prove? That people aren't very nice when you give them an anonymous ballot? that too many are simply too stupid to have their own opinion and that some are clever enough to manipulate enough people to win elections."

If the referendum had gone the other way, would you still have written this?

What the referendum showed, like with the Trump result in 2016, is just how out of touch the elites and the progressives - myself included - were with the baulk of voters who felt lost and left behind by the tide of globalisation.

People weren't stupid or mean, they were pissed off. And when we understand the reasons why people voted for Brexit or Trump then the left can begin to build an actual alternative.

Until then, it's gnashing of teeth and pissing in the wind.

 

[chrisrobin]

You give people the vote.
They can chose to vote or otherwise, that's democratic.
Its not good after the losing side screaming you didn't take into account those that didn't vote as its just sour grapes.
The only alternative is not to have a vote whereby there is a democratic choice to vote or not and that is to make it mandatory.
Those in the elite Westminster bubble are totally out of touch with the bread and butter earners on the ground. Cameron and his cronies presumed, and so they didn't do anything, put up a fight or offer alternative reasons fro remaining, consequently the bluster of Boris carried the day.
Much of the UK could see where the bulk of benefit was going and so voted to leave the EU rather than continue to enrich those with their hands in the Brussels gravy pot.
Democracy is a fragile thing and cannot be abused. Its all very well the civil rights activists making a lot of noise and creating a "woke" - in their view - new way of living, in the end the woke will turn round and bite back, the snowflakes will melt away in blistering heat and reality will return. Till then as members of a democratic society we have to vote according to our consciences, inform our MP's, make sure our voices are heard above the clamoring of the media and the voices of those out for five minutes of fame or trying to bolster a fading career.
Don't compare whats happening here with the Trumpism of America, we do at least have a civilised approach to voting rights and Parliament would have a say for changing those - an d that would lead to rebellion, unlike in the USA where the population lies down and takes it.
Politics in the UK might not be the best.might have seen better days but at least it doesn't have the corruption that invades the GOP, almost all the representatives and so many of its members

 

[DiamondJoe]

You give people the vote.
They can chose to vote or otherwise, that's democratic.
Its not good after the losing side screaming you didn't take into account those that didn't vote as its just sour grapes.
The only alternative is not to have a vote whereby there is a democratic choice to vote or not and that is to make it mandatory.
Those in the elite Westminster bubble are totally out of touch with the bread and butter earners on the ground. Cameron and his cronies presumed, and so they didn't do anything, put up a fight or offer alternative reasons fro remaining, consequently the bluster of Boris carried the day.
Much of the UK could see where the bulk of benefit was going and so voted to leave the EU rather than continue to enrich those with their hands in the Brussels gravy pot.
Democracy is a fragile thing and cannot be abused. Its all very well the civil rights activists making a lot of noise and creating a "woke" - in their view - new way of living, in the end the woke will turn round and bite back, the snowflakes will melt away in blistering heat and reality will return. Till then as members of a democratic society we have to vote according to our consciences, inform our MP's, make sure our voices are heard above the clamoring of the media and the voices of those out for five minutes of fame or trying to bolster a fading career.
Don't compare whats happening here with the Trumpism of America, we do at least have a civilised approach to voting rights and Parliament would have a say for changing those - an d that would lead to rebellion, unlike in the USA where the population lies down and takes it.
Politics in the UK might not be the best.might have seen better days but at least it doesn't have the corruption that invades the GOP, almost all the representatives and so many of its members

^ speaking of wailing and gnashing of teeth...

 

[Drifterwood]

We're still fighting a lost referendum from nearly 5 years ago? As much as I didn't like the outcome... it's gone!

I think your 2nd from last para is instructive, "What does this type of democracy prove? That people aren't very nice when you give them an anonymous ballot? that too many are simply too stupid to have their own opinion and that some are clever enough to manipulate enough people to win elections."

If the referendum had gone the other way, would you still have written this?

What the referendum showed, like with the Trump result in 2016, is just how out of touch the elites and the progressives - myself included - were with the baulk of voters who felt lost and left behind by the tide of globalisation.

People weren't stupid or mean, they were pissed off. And when we understand the reasons why people voted for Brexit or Trump then the left can begin to build an actual alternative.

Until then, it's gnashing of teeth and pissing in the wind.

My point is not particularly about Brexit, but rather that most democratic processes in the world are corrupted to one level or another. I don't think that this has happened by accident or evolution of the democratic process. Democracy is being deliberately undermined.

 

[Freddie53]

You give people the vote.
They can chose to vote or otherwise, that's democratic.
Its not good after the losing side screaming you didn't take into account those that didn't vote as its just sour grapes.
The only alternative is not to have a vote whereby there is a democratic choice to vote or not and that is to make it mandatory.
Those in the elite Westminster bubble are totally out of touch with the bread and butter earners on the ground. Cameron and his cronies presumed, and so they didn't do anything, put up a fight or offer alternative reasons fro remaining, consequently the bluster of Boris carried the day.
Much of the UK could see where the bulk of benefit was going and so voted to leave the EU rather than continue to enrich those with their hands in the Brussels gravy pot.
Democracy is a fragile thing and cannot be abused. Its all very well the civil rights activists making a lot of noise and creating a "woke" - in their view - new way of living, in the end the woke will turn round and bite back, the snowflakes will melt away in blistering heat and reality will return. Till then as members of a democratic society we have to vote according to our consciences, inform our MP's, make sure our voices are heard above the clamoring of the media and the voices of those out for five minutes of fame or trying to bolster a fading career.
Don't compare whats happening here with the Trumpism of America, we do at least have a civilised approach to voting rights and Parliament would have a say for changing those - an d that would lead to rebellion, unlike in the USA where the population lies down and takes it.
Politics in the UK might not be the best.might have seen better days but at least it doesn't have the corruption that invades the GOP, almost all the representatives and so many of its members

You have a point about Americans. The problem is not in the US Constitution. The problem is with the American people. I lay much of the blame on public schools who now teach skills and procedures, not good citizenship.

The idea of tax supported schools was to teach the students how to become good citizens, not only learn computer skills.

 

[DiamondJoe]

My point is not particularly about Brexit, but rather that most democratic processes in the world are corrupted to one level or another. I don't think that this has happened by accident or evolution of the democratic process. Democracy is being deliberately undermined.

...and my point is about democracy not going the way you want... that's also democracy

 

[Drifterwood]

But I am not trying to make it go anywhere.

Autocrats know how to abuse it, and self appointed progressives are the new Puritans and about as popular in Britain as the ones we chucked out before.

We need an elected Upper House soon.

 

[dandelion]

Quite what counts as a democratic mandate is an issue which has been fought in the UK over the Brexit issue.

In the UK a democratic mandate is 1 more MP in a ote than he opposition. Might be achieved on as little as 1/4 national support. Thats should be 'democratic' rather than democratic.


Interesting piece on R4 this morning after a TV program last night. Research on I think about a dozen skeletons taken from the wreck of Henry VIIIs sunken flagship Mary Rose, showed one of (black) african descent but born in Britain and a couple of other who were southern Europeans. So using european immgrant labour was government policy even then.

 

[dandelion]

1) the 52/48 vote raises the issue of the didn’t votes. My view is that they have implicitly said they accept the decision of the majority who vote. I rather think @dandelion you see them as supporting the status quo.

Yes. I assume anyone not bothering to vote in any kind of election is assuming it will make little or no difference to their future whatever way they might vote. So...I would count that satified if a decision like brexit does in the end make little difference. That is not what has happened so far.

At the moment brexit looks like it will break up the United Kingdom.

 

[Drifterwood]

Those in the elite Westminster bubble are totally out of touch with the bread and butter earners on the ground.

As one commentator said, Brexit was the working class throwing an almighty tantrum. Interestingly, it is Labour that continues to suffer the fall out.

Every walk of life has an elite, most we celebrate, academics, scientists, entertainers, sports people, doctors, even business people, but somehow a political elite is a bad thing. It says a lot about the British mindset. I am quite happy to throw your tomatoes at the political elite, even though you voted for them, but I would prefer it if we treated all elites the same way.

Personally, I am living with Brexit quite happily. Don't tell Jason but the EU has some unresolved issues and resolving them could be very messy. For example, I can't see how you accommodate French entitlement with German pragmatism. No one is going to miss that dreadful little man Farage, but I imagine Germany will miss many aspects of UK membership.

Regarding the anonymity of the ballot box, what do you think would happen if the British people had a vote on restricting the number of Muslims, for example, in the UK?

 

[Drifterwood]

Yes. I assume anyone not bothering to vote in any kind of election is assuming it will make little or no difference to their future whatever way they might vote. So...I would count that satified if a decision like brexit does in the end make little difference. That is not what has happened so far.

At the moment brexit looks like it will break up the United Kingdom.

That was a misquote in my post. It came with quoting what Jason had written for some reason. ??

But yes, non voters are predominantly saying that they don't believe their vote will count for anything, rather than being hardcore anarchists. The brilliance of Cummings was to persuade many traditional non voters that in this instance their vote would count, and he was spectacularly correct.

 

[Jason]

As one commentator said, Brexit was the working class throwing an almighty tantrum.

The elite thought that the compliant population would vote Remain. This was what the elite told them to do, so all political parties, business, the US president, all the betters who have a right to herd the sheep.

The elite were shocked at the outcome. It was a form of grief. And yes we’ve had the denial and the effort to change it.

Now the elite are rationalising it. The terrible unwashed working class were throwing an almighty tantrum.

And the elite is still wrong. People like me don’t fit their narrative. I’m not working class. I’ve more degrees than a thermometer and a professional job. And there are many like me who voted Brexit.

The reality is that despite the threats of the elite that the sky would fall people of all sorts voted for Brexit. Yes it was 52/48. If there hadn’t been operation fear (and hadn’t been a nasty racist murder of an MP a few days before) it would surely have been 55/45. Is 60/40 crazy? Right now we have clear support for Brexit, so I think there is a case even for 60/40.

I don’t think Brexit can be analysed as right/left or class. It wasn’t an economic decision. Rather Brexit was about identity. People in UK feel British first, not European. Right now we are seeing the nationalist backlash, but it is fizzling. We’re going to end up with UK as a nation state and people happy with that. The key word is happy.

 

[Jason]

That was a misquote in my post. It came with quoting what Jason had written for some reason. ??

But yes, non voters are predominantly saying that they don't believe their vote will count for anything, rather than being hardcore anarchists. The brilliance of Cummings was to persuade many traditional non voters that in this instance their vote would count, and he was spectacularly correct.

There, I thought you had adopted my views in their entirety!

 

[chrisrobin]

As one commentator said, Brexit was the working class throwing an almighty tantrum. Interestingly, it is Labour that continues to suffer the fall out.

Every walk of life has an elite, most we celebrate, academics, scientists, entertainers, sports people, doctors, even business people, but somehow a political elite is a bad thing. It says a lot about the British mindset. I am quite happy to throw your tomatoes at the political elite, even though you voted for them, but I would prefer it if we treated all elites the same way.

Personally, I am living with Brexit quite happily. Don't tell Jason but the EU has some unresolved issues and resolving them could be very messy. For example, I can't see how you accommodate French entitlement with German pragmatism. No one is going to miss that dreadful little man Farage, but I imagine Germany will miss many aspects of UK membership.

Regarding the anonymity of the ballot box, what do you think would happen if the British people had a vote on restricting the number of Muslims, for example, in the UK?

Yes indeed, the French entitlement is going to be a problem as Macron fails to see that being al things to all men wont work. Le Pen has stirred stuff up, the politicians failed to see the light that shines on everyday lives and the military are rumbling about reducing that status of being French. And Germany, always pragmatic could now be about to feel the revelations of the cost of unification, when, in the name of unity so many things were swept under the carpet, high ranking Stasi embers pensioned off handsomely and told to be quiet, this new Germany couldn't cope with trials against humanity for the second time in a century. Like the EU Germany has presented a one face to the public regardless of cost.
If Brexit only achieved one good thing it was to reveal the cracks in a deranged dream where leadership, media exposure are more important than the truth. Plus of course the French showing their true niggling weaselly sides again - in the event of another world war would the UK be so wiling to step in and help them out for a third time?

 

[chrisrobin]

You have a point about Americans. The problem is not in the US Constitution. The problem is with the American people. I lay much of the blame on public schools who now teach skills and procedures, not good citizenship.

The idea of tax supported schools was to teach the students how to become good citizens, not only learn computer skills.

The problem is indeed with the Constitution upon which to much importance is laid. It is a basic for freedom and not a blue print and today totally unfit for purpose. It was relevant at the time of written, today it should be updated. The very fact that a centralised government came make laws which are not applicable it all states all the time. A system whereby states can take away basic rights- as included in the constitution so dearly beloved, is, to say the least, outdated and not fit for purpose.
The American people are to blame, they allow politicians to use politics to better their own ends, enrich themselves, regardless of the electorate they are supposed to serve. That said many Americans, without thinking with claim the fifth, claim the right to bear arms without thinking of what that really means and what it meant at the time of wring and without thinking is such a "right" relevant today.
Regrettably so many of the American people are being lead along by a series of pied pipers and dancing to a jolly tune unaware of the consequences. In time, with luck they will all realise that being "woke" is all a scam.