Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

dandelion

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Going back to a point you (and Dandy) have mentioned - altho I do think the way the euro was set up worked well for Germany, and disadvantaged others - you're right in saying Greece and everyone could (and should) have used the low interest opportunity to reform labour and gain competitiveness, rather than going on a borrowing spree. Why didn't they? Dunno. :redface:
Politicians are the same the world over. As are people. We tend to err on the optimistic side. Add to that the natural desire to please the electorate, or simply the masses if its a dictatorship, the odd war for a bit of agrandisement, and it always seems better to spend now rather than saving for a rainy day. Some now attack Brown for spending too much during the last labour government. no one. i said NO ONE, said this at the time.Ok, people quibbled about a little here or there but essentially all politicians and pundits agreed on the general level of an affordable budget. That level is well above what we now regard as sensible, but only with the benefit of hindsight.

Then US BANKS LOST AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF MONEY. I keep saying this but people dont seem to be listening. Whether a particular country was behaving carefully or profligately, overnight a manageable situation became a crisis. A few countries have come through this quite well but most have not. The US appears to be doing ok, as does the UK. But both are still spending stunning amounts of money they dont have. They are OK only because they still have credit. And because they are printing money to spend.

Likewise, europe as a whole is doing the same, and the crisis at the moment is about the richer countries giving credit to the poorer. Germany has been dripping in credit only slowly for what I think are two very good reasons. It is not possible even for Germany or via eurobonds to finance debt indefinitely. If we try to do so, what evidence is there that the worst offenders have yet repented their old style behaviour and will now invest rather than spend? if they do not do this, then it doent matter how much money germany provides, it will not be enough.

There are three gropups who might make use of cheap money. The government, private industry, and private individuals. In the Uk, Ireland, and i dont know which other countries, a huge amount of private money has gone into property. People complain that individuals are not saving, but most of us regard a house as an investment and therefore as savings. Except, it isnt. In the UK successive governments have fostered the illusion that buying a house is the same as investing in a pension or having cash in the bank. The reality is that we have run up whopping debts because of this. Likewise, most investment in stocks and shares, although it is backed by a tangible asset in the form of a fractional ownership of a company, buying and dealing in shares normally makes no real investment in actual production. What it does do, is make bankers rich, and even governments if they care to tax those bankers. But this is illusionary wealth. All that has happened is that money earned by individuals has been spent on buying paper, and part of that money has been taken by the banks and government. The person ends up with a piece of paper, which has an intrinsic value equal to any other scrap piece of paper. It only has value if someone else with cash is willing to buy it.

Then, private companies may borrow money, buy machine tools and make something. I expect even in Greece companies have been doing this, How well they do this is debateable. Private companies have no interest in making the rest of us rich. Right now, they mainly seem to have noticed there is a real problem with the economy and it is a bad time to invest in new projects. Sensible, at least from their perspective. But governments give more of the money we dont have to people who intend to do nothing with it? In the good times private industry still had no interest in helping countries. jason will tell you that at the drop of a hat it will run for a different country. Sure, it will if you let it.

Then there are governments. A number of people object to governments dabbling in manufacturing or providing services. This is absurd. It is as bad as banning private industry. Governments must provide services which operate on a national scale. If it is considered necessary or desireable to boost the economy then governments may be the only way this can happen. Private industry can have a very narrow focus, and governments may be the only actor which can start interest in a new area or blue skies research, or even subsidising whole new industries to start up. But if you take the mindset that governments must not intervene, then this cannot happen.
 

dandelion

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also its stupid to say (not you joll) germany has to raise their salaries or to "become less competitiv" compared to the others... if we would akt more like the rest of europe, it wouldnt create more jobs in europe. It would just distroy jobs in germany and everyone would start to import thouse goods, they got from germany bevor, now from out of europe
yes. Its completely pointless to blame germans for doing things right. Though I guess its natural because the alternative is to blame yourself for doing things wrong.

but back to the eurobonds and take spain as an example...
in the late 1990´s spain had an unemployment rate of 20% and youth unemployment of 50%. also the state debts were around the same as today... the only reason why spain lowered their debts and unemployment, was the euro and with this, the boom in building. so without the euro, spain would propably in a even worst situation. the only one you can blame for this situation in spain, are the spains self and their gov. they didnt used the last 10 years to reform their system and to create a new and stable economy.
so why should someone pay for their fault, if they, even now, arent willing to reform... you can see it at the demonstrations, as soon as the gov starts some reforms[/QUOTE]
 
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sadly i think the same... the uk wount join a united eu / ez. but it would be a major plus for bouth
Thanks. I doubt we will - but very nice of you to say. :smile:

FC bayer won the semi finals vs real madrid :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1:
Chelsea v Bayern - shall we go?

[PS: I blame the euro for Spain's Barca and Madrid getting knocked out. :wink: :biggrin1:]
 

Perados

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Chelsea v Bayern - shall we go?

[PS: I blame the euro for Spain's Barca and Madrid getting knocked out. :wink: :biggrin1:]
its a home game and bayern is in a good shape... but the same situation was in munich (germany vs england), spring 2001 too :cool:

but i dont think it was the euro´s fault... come on, who owns chelsea - russian mafia??? and dont get the germans mad - not as a spanish in this situation
both didnt had a real choise

very interesting situation in netherlands, 3 days after the end of the coaltion and gov. the austarity (reason why the gov failed) got gratified... it shows, no matter if apolemic party is part of the gov. if a law is needed, the other parties will find a way
it proofs jason wrong :tongue::tongue::tongue:
 
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Jason

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And yeh, if the EU wants to survive, it does need a single government, and to unify more - altho that's something I feel sure the UK would stay out of.

That's a scenario that would make people in the UK very happy indeed.:wink: I think Europe would be happier with the UK outside rather than standing on the sidelines complaining. After all the UK is not a European nation.:cool:

The challenge is for many nations to decide whether they want to be in or out of a central EU group. Ireland is surely out. Nordic nations probably out, and most of the former Eastern Europe. Greece out. Portugal out. What about Spain and Italy? I think the core is Germany+France+BeNeLux+Austria. And I think this could work.
 

Jason

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yes. Its completely pointless to blame germans for doing things right.

But it is such fun!

The Germans had this curious view that the peoples of Europe would start acting responsibly, like Germans. They really thought that the euro could be as safe as the DM. They thought - even still think - that Club Med obey the rules and submit figures which are vaguely correct.

Now that Germany is propping up Club Med there seems to be an expectation in Germany that these nations will say "thank you". I don't think most Germans understand the extent to which the opposite is happening. Germany is being blamed and hated. As far as Greeks are concerned the second world war is being fought again, and Greece is again occupied by Germany.
 

LuciferChild

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Grrr Why French candidates are after portuguese comunity in france?? they visit and eat in portuguese restaurants, they are talking about being the best comunity in france, and bla bla bla dont understand this interest from one day to another toward to it... portuguese comunity can be crucial to this elections?

the portuguese socialist party are now begging for the comunity to vote on Hollande,while Sarkozy says that it was socialism politics who destroyed Portugal,Spain Italy Greece.

Then Hollande says - "Portugal approved the EU fiscal pact? it doesnt matter because if i win there will be renegotiations about it", how can this guy devalue the decisions of a EU country?

Now Merkel said to Hollande that EU fiscal pact isnt renegotiable.

And Greece will give 18 billions to the banks, it wasnt the banks who forgave some part of the debt of the country?

What kind of Union is this one??
 
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Jason

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Venizelos the socialist leader in Greece has come out against more austerity. Sounds as if after election (and he's certainly likely to be part of a Greek coalition government) he plans to do a Hollande and renegotiate the bailout terms.

Cameron speaking this morning has said the Euro crisis is not halfway through.
 

Perados

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hollande is an idiot and distroys every "success" we had doring the last 2 years. If he wanna negotiate everything again, fine do so... but it would be real fun to see all the countries, who wants new negotiations, start to strugle, should germany say: should hollande win, wo wount no longer grant for other ez states...


A really dangerous bastard
 

Drifterwood

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hollande is an idiot and distroys every "success" we had doring the last 2 years. If he wanna negotiate everything again, fine do so... but it would be real fun to see all the countries, who wants new negotiations, start to strugle, should germany say: should hollande win, wo wount no longer grant for other ez states...


A really dangerous bastard

He is 40 years out of date, rather like Strauss Khunt and the others. France needs to move forward without these dinosaurs and their 1968 memories. It's 2012.
 

Jason

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Of course Hollande is out of date. But the Fiscal Union was driven through by Merkozy, with many nations feeling there was nothing they could do when confronted by this united front. Yet Spain has already broken the terms. France under Hollande will renegotiate. Other countries including Italy are likely to want to renegotiate.

Socialism works as long as there is someone who can have their money pinched. For France plus Club Med this someone is Germany. I think Hollande will renegotiate the FU to mean an end to austerity for Club Med (he is pledged to increasing spending) with the money coming from Germany. And I think the negotiation will be supported by a threat - either Germany agrees or Club Med plus France will go broke and bring the euro down. Germany has to sign up to Eurobonds, debt union and a policy of 30+ years of massive subsidy of most EZ nations. Possibly Germans could see on their wage slip a monthly deduction to pay for the EZ south, comparable to the German reunification tax.
 

dandelion

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Jase, i think you are getting a little apocalyptic. But I am interested to know whether anyone thinks the situation has materially worsened recently, or is simply proceeding as might have been (was) predicted?

The last round of economic statistics in the UK were a bit negative and everyone now seems to be going round saying how surprised they are that things have not turned out as they predicted (er, hoped?) I dont really see this downtown as surprising. I still have this mental model of the world economy as in one of those disaster movies, where they start with a warehouse full of fuel and then end staring at the last barrell. This world bank collapse thing has effectively dropped every country back onto their reserves and they are running out.


The US latest figures also show a downturn. Do people thing we are all just showing a blip, or is even the US showing the effects of a rundown in money being pumped into the economy?


Socialism works as long as there is someone who can have their money pinched.
Ah good, a glimpse of hope. We can tax all those bankers....

As to the new politicians. Nothing can be said until the elections are over and whoever wins has to deal with the truth.
 

Drifterwood

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Jase, i think you are getting a little apocalyptic. But I am interested to know whether anyone thinks the situation has materially worsened recently, or is simply proceeding as might have been (was) predicted?

The last round of economic statistics in the UK were a bit negative and everyone now seems to be going round saying how surprised they are that things have not turned out as they predicted (er, hoped?) I dont really see this downtown as surprising.

Europe's woes are wholly a result of the sort of politics and economics that you so easily espouse, Dandy. Just given some momentum by the banking disaster and the rise of other economic powers, which frankly wasn't that hard to see.
 

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Europe's woes are wholly a result of the sort of politics and economics that you so easily espouse, Dandy. Just given some momentum by the banking disaster and the rise of other economic powers, which frankly wasn't that hard to see.
I tend to agree with you.
But then I'm always puzzled by the Scandinavian countries.
 

Jason

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@Dandelion, the issues right now are mostly political. Merkozy kept the euro alive. Spain promised to be good. Greece promised to commit suicide to save the euro. Italy got rid of its rapist buffoon of a PM and put in a dictator. Ireland promised not to hold a referendum. All these issues now look dodgy.

But the economic issues haven't gone away. Monetary union without fiscal must fail.
 

Jason

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Hollande has just made a speech in which he has stated that a Hollande government will increase spending and demanding that the ECB issue Eurobonds to enable this to happen. He also suggests that all EZ nations should go on a spending spree.

It is interesting that his demand is to the ECB. Strictly the ECB cannot decide to issue Eurobonds. Yet the ECB has enormous powers to ensure the survival of the euro. Hollande is in effect suggesting that the ECB set up the process for agreement by the 17, and this in an environment where there can be no disagreement because the markets will not accept any other solution. On this scenario Germany has lost. Eurobonds will be created without any genuine agreement by Germany. And the transfer of wealth from Germany to the rest of the EZ will be of a magnitude scarcely comprehensible today. I suppose the reparations of the 1920s gives an idea.

@Dandelion, you think I've been apocalyptic? We're facing a financial storm greater than anything any of us can imagine.
 

dandelion

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Europe's woes are wholly a result of the sort of politics and economics that you so easily espouse, Dandy. Just given some momentum by the banking disaster and the rise of other economic powers, which frankly wasn't that hard to see.
Which ones? balanced budgets? A resolution of the housing crisis in the UK? Legislation to bring big companies under control, which would include getting them responsible to their shareholders, never mind the public. Representative government? A winding back or legislation which represses the individual? A return to the trend in perhaps the first 3/4 of the 20th century where wealth was transferred from the traditional rich to the poor?

Hollande has just made a speech in which he has stated that a Hollande government will increase spending and demanding that the ECB issue Eurobonds to enable this to happen. He also suggests that all EZ nations should go on a spending spree.

@Dandelion, you think I've been apocalyptic? We're facing a financial storm greater than anything any of us can imagine.
ok, I take the latter as your position. Myself, I have tried to look at the evidence and frankly we have two sides arguing at each other whether we must spend or must stop spending. Naturally, we do neither.