Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

eurotop40

Admired Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Posts
4,430
Media
0
Likes
982
Points
333
Location
Zurich (Switzerland)
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
ComRes poll (in UK) released tonight, and includes the following:

On refusing entry to refugees from Syria wishing to enter the UK: Support: 55% Oppose: 29%
On closing Britain's borders with the EU: Support: 53% Oppose: 34%

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of these views (and for the record I oppose the majority in both) they are views from clear majorities.

Actually, it's the Schengen area that is reinforcing its external borders control including the UK. Enjoy! (BTW, what do these idiots mean by "closing its borders"?)
 

Perados

Superior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Posts
11,002
Media
9
Likes
2,505
Points
333
Location
Germany
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
I don't think the EU is solving issues, if that is what you mean.

The economic mess around the euro looks to create years of naval-gazing. The "price" of saving the euro is sky-high unemployment in nations like Spain and Greece and overall high unemployment, particularly youth unemployment. This is an economic price that will make the continent poor.
it's more a national than a euro problem...
If you compare Ireland ans Greece, you see clear differences in growth rates and unemployment. But both had a massive debt problem and both use the euro.

Something similar counts for Germany and France. While both use the euro, one solved the crisis very well the other one didn't
The Schengen mess is that the EU has an uncontrolled migrant policy. The southern border - the Mediterranean - is in effect open. If people cross it they cannot be turned back. If they are rescued at sea they are taken to Europe. Milton Friedman stated that a welfare state cannot exist without an effective border. There is no way that the Schengen nations can possibly cope with the strains being put on them. We're seeing borders go up (as Hungary) and restrictions of Schengen. Nations like Poland are leading the way to say to Germany that it is a German problem.
the problem isn't schengen, but Dublin3... Britain isn't part of Schengen, but still do thousands try to make it to Britain...

Also, every rescued person, just as everyonewho made it on their own to Europe, can get send back by the members.

The refugee crisis is also not created by Schengen, but by EU members like Poland and Britain.
Outside the euro and Schengen there are solutions. The UK is creating more jobs every year than the rest of the EU combined.
and still has Germany a lower unemployment than Britain... and if you look at the youth unemployment, the difference is even more drastically.

Also, like i pointed out a few weeks ago, the payment of the new jobs is purely
The UK is recipient of economic migrants fleeing unemployment in the EU.
that's the price everyone has to pay for free trade
The UK has a refugee (not migrant) policy for Syria which takes people direct from Syria to the UK by plane, with accommodation and support in place.
but limited to 80,000 for the next 4 years... a number you ahould be ashamed of
Checks are carried out in Syria. Most who come are families. The UK could do even better outside the EU. Why accept economic migrants from the EU when we should be selecting migrants we need with appropriate skills from around the world?
because you enjoy the benefits of the worlds largest free trade market. And this includes free movement - and like i pointed out: the option to leave a country at every time and migrate into a "better one" reduce the number of migrants...
Why should the UK get dragged into the EU debate on Germany's welcome to all migrants.
because it's a european problem and if we don't act together thousands will die!
No one doubts that conditions in Syria are horrible. And Libya, Afghanistan, Eritrea, Somalia, Nigeria, South Sudan, Sudan. Bluntly there are human rights abuses affecting millions in most African nations, in just about all Arab nations and in China. If coming from a nation with human rights abuses automatically makes someone a refugee then at least half the world can be classified as refugees.
just read what Britain has signed...

Han right abuse alone doesn't make you a refugee, but in combination with other things you are
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
it's more a national than a euro problem...
If you compare Ireland ans Greece, you see clear differences in growth rates and unemployment. But both had a massive debt problem and both use the euro.

Something similar counts for Germany and France. While both use the euro, one solved the crisis very well the other one didn't...

I agree political decisions have an impact. Ireland has made better political decisions than Greece; Germany has made better political decisions than France. However there will always be nations that make better or worse political decisions. What is needed is a system which compensates for bad political decisions. It's called a national currency. There is a very close correspondence between an optimal currency area and a single, sovereign nation.

With floating national currencies Ireland would have devalued somewhat, and this would have taken some of the strain. Greece would have devalued a lot. Undoubtedly such a devaluation would have caused problems, but in case anyone has missed it, Greece has had some of the worst financial problems of any nation in the post-war years. Perhaps with floating currencies France would have devalued somewhat and Germany re-valued.

We've just seen a hard left government take power in Portugal, with economic policies that are beyond stupid. Portugal looks set to make the sort of mistakes Greece made, and within the noose that is the single currency. Ouch!
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
In the last few days he has managed to say that "Jihadi John" should have been arrested and that "shoot to kill" as use by the French police (and as would be used in such circumstances by the UK police) is both something that is wrong and that he would not authorise in the UK
There would seem to be a double standard operating here. On the one hand the public are being encouraged to over react to a few deaths caused by terrorists, but on the other we are being encouraged to place no value on life it happens to be the life of a suspected terrorist. One unquestionable result of a shoot to kill policy will be that innocent people get shot by officers of th law. The police even managed to shoot an innocent man dead in my home town, in bed asleep with his girl friend, because of a case of mistaken identity, Didnt they also manage to kill an innocent man on the london undergroud not so long ago?

Recently they have created rules which hand most of the power to the Unions and the Members.
I am gobsmacked that anyone can believe an organisation should not honestly reprsent its members! However in labour's case, all recent changes to election rules have taken away or reduced the voting rights of unions, and transferred these to individual members.

1) Run a candidate against Corbyn. He needs 50 Labour MPs to back him to get on the ballot paper. He won't get these.
I think you meant Corbyn would not get 50 MPs to nominate him? That might be the case, but if it is, it suggests it is current labour MPs who are unrepresentative of their members, not Corbyn. If Corbyn is unelectable, the only reason for it is because the labour party is seen as divided and refusing to back him. The entire party becomes unelectable because it does not have confidence in its own policies, not because those policies are wrong. This is exactly what happened at the last election.

The new leader then pushes through the rule changes to kick out the communists, Marxists etcetera, restoring Blairite New Labour.
Blairites are conservatives, and would be perfectly happy in that party. I do not believe even Corbyn is a communist. He is simply a social democrat, which is the flavour of politics widely supported across europe, which has been accompanied by enormous economic success and a generally good lifestyle for everyone. The consevatives are anomalous in this, and indeed have been responsible during my lifetime for some serious and damaging structural changes within Britain.

2) Labour MPs resign from Labour in a body and form a New Labour party (say 230 Labour MPs).
They will not, because they need a local party supporting them. In reality they are carrying out a confidence trick against their own members. The slogan is, 'support us because even though you do not agree with our policies, you hate the other lot more'.

However many would switch funding to New Labour.
From the conservatives, perhaps? The conservatives are also carrying out a similar confidence trick aginst their own more right wing members. The reason for all this lying is very much the unfit electoral system we have which refuses to recognise more than one division of views.

On closing Britain's borders with the EU: Support: 53% Oppose: 34%
Yeah, right. And when there are then no teachers or doctors because we have forbidden them to come here? Nor any cleaners or dustmen? So would we see a sharp rise in wages paid by government ( and everyone else) to persuade english people to do these jobs?

The economic mess around the euro looks to create years of naval-gazing.
The British are famous for their navy in a tradition going back centuries, way before the EU was invented. (sorry, i know its a typo, but it made me laugh!)
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
The "price" of saving the euro is sky-high unemployment in nations like Spain and Greece and overall high unemployment, particularly youth unemployment. This is an economic price that will make the continent poor.
I am very sceptical of such a broad conclusion. Even in Greece people are still affluent on a world scale. I personally believe that we are worse off in the UK thanwe might have been because of the right wing policies which have been adopted here. The most obvious has been creating an artificial monopoly on housing. it also should be noted the damning recent report on Halifax bank, which concluded the directors were all incompetent. All good public school establishment chaps who got their jobs because their faces fit.

The Schengen mess is that the EU has an uncontrolled migrant policy.
No, the shengen mess is that the UN has an an uncontrolled migrant policy about 'refugees'.

The southern border - the Mediterranean - is in effect open. If people cross it they cannot be turned back. If they are rescued at sea they are taken to Europe. Milton Friedman stated that a welfare state cannot exist without an effective border.
Indeed he would also seem to be attacking the UN and international agreements on refugees.

The only solution is to refuse to change either the text or interpretation of this international legislation on refugees. I agree the EU needs to address this rather urgently as a whole.

The UK is creating more jobs every year than the rest of the EU combined.
Some people would say this is because of the economic and pro-active effect of immigrants, who always create jobs for themselves from necessity.

If coming from a nation with human rights abuses automatically makes someone a refugee then at least half the world can be classified as refugees.
Indeed. We have signed up to an open ended commitment which is nothing whatever to do with the EU. Please stop blaming the eU for things which are not its fault.....oh, I forgot that is normal practice for EU opponents.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
incidentally, 6 years of conservative government has brought us to....a government failing to meet its own targets of falling borrowing and a balanced budget. www.bbc.co.uk: Government borrowing worst October figure in six years - BBC News

Whereas when the last labour government departed, things were actually improving!

Here's another eample. Story about huge rises in costs to electrify a stretch of railway. My guess is the fundamental reason is over reliance upon private sector contractors, instead of the government running in-house organistions. Rocketing rail electrification costs unacceptable, say MPs - BBC News

Or possibly there is a shortage of poles to act as labourers?
 

rbkwp

Mythical Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Posts
80,313
Media
1
Likes
45,709
Points
608
Location
Auckland (New Zealand)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
not so much collapsed
more so Eus FUCKED!!!

lasted 30 years, oh yeah ..
yes we know the p...s were never a part of it ...

400px-Schengen_Area_Labelled_Map.svg.png

Austria
Belgium
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Lux.
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Iceland
Norway
Switz.
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Romania
Liech.
United
Kingdom

Ireland
Schengen Area (EU)
Schengen Area (non-EU)
Working to im


Schengen Area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
@dandelion, EU-bashing is directly akin to other activities offered on this board. :p:oops:;):cool: If in doubt I assume that the EU is to blame.:rolleyes:

Right now the UK polls on the EU do seem to be moving in favour of LEAVE.:) We must have a referendum within two years, and a realistic prospect of getting out. :D In the meantime we're faced with a Labour opposition so disorganised that they can't put up any sort of coherent objection to anything the Conservatives are doing, and such a weak opposition does our democracy no good. :confused: That said it is very useful for Conservatives to get some difficult stuff through while Labour are absolutely up the creek. I know we don't believe polls, but last night ComRes put Conservatives an amazing 15 points ahead of Labour ;) and Labour's own polling in Oldham shows that Labour support could go into free-fall. :cool: Labour have been wiped out in Scotland; is Labour about to be wiped out in England and Wales? :D

At the start of the summer it looked likely that Labour would be leading a government, perhaps with SNP support, that Conservatives would be engaged in a messy leadership battle, that the UK would be firmly within the EU and perhaps even considering joining the euro. Now everything is moving in the right direction. Presumably by the time we get to 2020 we will have the boundary changes through, we will have some form of EVEL, and with a bit of luck we will already have left the EU. The future's bright; the future's blue.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
...
lasted 30 years, oh yeah ..

I think it's a bit early to write the obituary of the EU, but there is room for hope!

We're now looking at a realistic prospect of the UK leaving the EU. Some polls are showing this as the majority view. It is reasonable to ask "what if?" Now the STAY campaign are suggesting all sorts of dire consequences for the UK (dragons will fly over the country, monsters will rise from the sea). I'm not looking at these. What would be the consequences for nations that remain in the EU? I suggest:

1) Ireland. We need full and detailed discussion. The relationship is governed by the Anglo-Irish Treaty. It seems to me that the border between UK and Ireland must remain open with unrestricted freedom of movement of people, goods and services. In effect the UK enforces migration on the sea border between the island of Ireland and Great Britain, not on the land border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. We need a win-win situation where Ireland feels the benefit of UK out of the EU. The risk is that the EU will be unhappy about unrestricted trade between UK and EU passing through Ireland and penalise Ireland.

2) EU momentum. There has been a territory that left the EU (Greenland) but this was not seen as a blow to the EU. UK departure will be seen as problematic. The average wealth of the EU will fall.

3) Other nations. Right now no-one is seriously suggesting that others will follow the UK out, but this could move up the agenda. Sweden? Denmark? Finland? Netherlands? What happens to Catalonia if they go independent? To Flanders?

4) EU headwinds. The euro problems continue. We now have Schengen problems and migration problems. Are we going to see the re-establishment of more independent nation states?
 
  • Like
Reactions: rbkwp

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Another EU Referendum Poll published - this one 52% LEAVE.

Meanwhile Cameron seems to be finding lots of problems in trying to get minor concessions. The momentum is all for LEAVE. Additionally the LEAVE campaign seems to have all the money behind it.

I don't think it is realistic to hold a referendum in the UK in a December - Christmas gets in the way. The requirement is a referendum before the end of 2017. I think we can already say this means our referendum is within two years. Probably the three possible slots are autumn 2016, spring 2017 and autumn 2017.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Have you missed the recent European unity, Jase?

Do you mean the unity the EU nations are showing over the migrants? Or the unity in keeping borders open? Or the unity in dealing with the sluggish economies of the Eurozone? Or the unity in approach to Ukraine? (Or Syria? Or Russia?)

The ONLY unity I can see is dislike of the UK.

A symptom of the break-down within Europe is a story that's just hit he press: Hungary is providing Macedonia with 100km of razor-wire. This is a free gift from Hungary to Macedonia. It is to be used to fence the border with Greece. So Hungary, an EU and Schengen nation, is in effect building a border in a non-EU nation to keep out people from another EU and Schengen nation. In effect we will very soon have a closed border between Greece and the nations to the north: Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria. Greece is the wrong side of the fence.
 

eurotop40

Admired Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Posts
4,430
Media
0
Likes
982
Points
333
Location
Zurich (Switzerland)
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Do you mean the unity the EU nations are showing over the migrants? Or the unity in keeping borders open? Or the unity in dealing with the sluggish economies of the Eurozone? Or the unity in approach to Ukraine? (Or Syria? Or Russia?)

The ONLY unity I can see is dislike of the UK.

A symptom of the break-down within Europe is a story that's just hit he press: Hungary is providing Macedonia with 100km of razor-wire. This is a free gift from Hungary to Macedonia. It is to be used to fence the border with Greece. So Hungary, an EU and Schengen nation, is in effect building a border in a non-EU nation to keep out people from another EU and Schengen nation. In effect we will very soon have a closed border between Greece and the nations to the north: Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria. Greece is the wrong side of the fence.

Ah, STFU. Do you have a real serious job or are you being paid for this nonsense?
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
The best way to unite is to define an enemy ;)

Yes!

Look at it from a UK perspective. We have our political differences and our home nation issues and regional stresses and strains. If we define the EU as the common enemy, we all unite. And of course we do! Most people in the UK like Europe but are clear they are not Europeans.

A perfect Brexit campaign would include a Royal baby a couple of weeks before the referendum, so I hope William and Kate get the timing right. Marriage of prince Harry would also work. Or a jubilee (2016 is 90th birthday of Queen Elizabeth; 2017 is 65 years reign; both require year-long celebration.) Disasters in the EU would of course help Brexit, so maybe a euro crisis or Schengen crisis. Perfect would be if the Commission decides just before the referendum to fine the UK for something.