Excluding people

TexanStar

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If you didn't notice, I called out @TexanStar for trying to speak for me in this very thread.

I wasn't speaking for you though :p It was a regular question, not a rhetorical one (I could rewrite it as "Why do you hold the belief that MickyLee, Fade, or TNJ is awash with a thirst for vengeance against straight men?" and it'd be more clear. Just tripped over a turn of phrase).
 

Nudistpig

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it's just odd how one can get respect and appreciation so fast, you got mine mister. your posts is spot on and friendly to say the least. again thanks..!!!

Well that is kind but I have respect for all the folx here regardless. Keep in mind I'm a teacher a writer an activist and a member of the community. Also male. Also using a dominant voice with just a bit of understanding. You'd expect this of me. But I want you to hear everyone else. The anger and hurt is there too. As a community we can't just engage with the posts that please us. Imagine that an expert in the field is not going to be there each time. You have to try and hear all the voices. Some may not please you. But that makes little difference to the message which was not far off mine. I am telling you this because if you stay here, this will happen again. Lord, I've stepped in it good myself. I apologized and learned. The important lesson is that beyond big cocks this community means a great deal to many. Its not just a message board where we dump hot takes (ok yes some of that). It's a community that offers a space people need on deeper levels. Remember that.
 

soren10

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Well that is kind but I have respect for all the folx here regardless. Keep in mind I'm a teacher a writer an activist and a member of the community. Also male. Also using a dominant voice with just a bit of understanding. You'd expect this of me. But I want you to hear everyone else. The anger and hurt is there too. As a community we can't just engage with the posts that please us. Imagine that an expert in the field is not going to be there each time. You have to try and hear all the voices. Some may not please you. But that makes little difference to the message which was not far off mine. I am telling you this because if you stay here, this will happen again. Lord, I've stepped in it good myself. I apologized and learned. The important lesson is that beyond big cocks this community means a great deal to many. Its not just a message board where we dump hot takes (ok yes some of that). It's a community that offers a space people need on deeper levels. Remember that.

yes now that you pointed out , it makes sense, this site is more than just LPSG is a place that some people feel comfortable at and meet their online friends. it's also a place to learn and be educated by some people. i am clearly not receptive enough tbh.
 

Nudistpig

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yes now that you pointed out , it makes sense, this site is more than just LPSG is a place that some people feel comfortable at and meet their online friends. it's also a place to learn and be educated by some people. i am clearly not receptive enough tbh.

Hey ask Fade I was a total crash and burn on arrival. But yes. People. Really cool and diverse people are here. Talking about stuff you might not find elsewhere easy.
 
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Nudistpig

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I feel that Fade cares and has knowledge and experience from my perspective. She's been very helpful to me but she does that for lots of members and it must get tiring. I'm asking you to listen to her in particular and all the women who post regularly here. There is a lot of sausage up in here and making the active women feel welcome by paying attention to how we present ideas and share them as well as not going to straight up misogyny is good for everyone.
 
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Well that is kind but I have respect for all the folx here regardless. Keep in mind I'm a teacher a writer an activist and a member of the community. Also male. Also using a dominant voice with just a bit of understanding. You'd expect this of me. But I want you to hear everyone else. The anger and hurt is there too. As a community we can't just engage with the posts that please us. Imagine that an expert in the field is not going to be there each time. You have to try and hear all the voices. Some may not please you. But that makes little difference to the message which was not far off mine. I am telling you this because if you stay here, this will happen again. Lord, I've stepped in it good myself. I apologized and learned. The important lesson is that beyond big cocks this community means a great deal to many. Its not just a message board where we dump hot takes (ok yes some of that). It's a community that offers a space people need on deeper levels. Remember that.
Have we slipped into some kind of dom/sub role play here? ;)
 

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privilege is so hard *sad face goes here*

welcome to the exclusion every other demographic on the planet experiences on a daily basis.

Every other demographic? You mean every one other than "White cishetero men"? So... the Japanese experience exclusion on a daily basis, in their country where they are the overwhelming majority? :laughing:

Ironic that the intersectional oppression narrative leads you to portray the world as more black and white than it truly is.
 

TexanStar

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Every other demographic? You mean every one other than "White cishetero men"? So... the Japanese experience exclusion on a daily basis, in their country where they are the overwhelming majority? :laughing:

Ironic that the intersectional oppression narrative leads you to portray the world as more black and white than it truly is.

Heya, long time no see :p

Were you gone for a while, or you just stepped away from politics forums so I haven't seen you?
 

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Every other demographic? You mean every one other than "White cishetero men"? So... the Japanese experience exclusion on a daily basis, in their country where they are the overwhelming majority? :laughing:



Ironic that the intersectional oppression narrative leads you to portray the world as more black and white than it truly is.

Intersectionality doesn't deal with identity in an atomic nominal sense. It's not 'Black' 'Lesbian' 'Caribbean' in terms of a purely formulaic reduction to 'privilege'. It's first and foremost about power and the power structures that intersect the identities. Japanese oppression is the result of colonialism, racism, imperialism. However, the Japanese developed an economic solution to the marginal position they held after the war predicated on very difficult cultural choices. They had to turn Westward. Most of 'Ghost in the Shell' era anime deals with this exact problem. Suicide rates are another example of the incompatible aspects of modernisation and traditional culture. The economic miracle hid the cultural wounds that never closed. So the structure of power here is radically different. It's a spurious comparison at best. The more accurate and honest Japanese example is how the Japanese Americans were treated during and after the second world war.
 

TexanStar

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Intersectionality doesn't deal with identity in an atomic nominal sense. It's not 'Black' 'Lesbian' 'Caribbean' in terms of a purely formulaic reduction to 'privilege'. It's first and foremost about power and the power structures that intersect the identities. Japanese oppression is the result of colonialism, racism, imperialism.

I'm having trouble following your narrative here. I'm not chopping up your post to drop points, just trying to break it into smaller pieces.

When you're talking about Japanese oppression here, are you talking about the oppression of Japanese in America? Or Japanese in Japan? And where do you see colonialism, racism, and imperialism playing into it (particularly if you're talking about Japanese in Japan)?
 

malakos

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Intersectionality doesn't deal with identity in an atomic nominal sense. It's not 'Black' 'Lesbian' 'Caribbean' in terms of a purely formulaic reduction to 'privilege'. It's first and foremost about power and the power structures that intersect the identities. Japanese oppression is the result of colonialism, racism, imperialism. However, the Japanese developed an economic solution to the marginal position they held after the war predicated on very difficult cultural choices. They had to turn Westward. Most of 'Ghost in the Shell' era anime deals with this exact problem. Suicide rates are another example of the incompatible aspects of modernisation and traditional culture. The economic miracle hid the cultural wounds that never closed. So the structure of power here is radically different. It's a spurious comparison at best. The more accurate and honest Japanese example is how the Japanese Americans were treated during and after the second world war.

For one thing, I don't think one could make the case that the Japanese (not Japanese-Americans) were ever wholly oppressed by the Europeans. The Meiji did a pretty good job of averting that possibility. As for the post-War era, I hope you're not suggesting there's something special about the downtrodden conditions of being a country that instigated a war and then lost it. Because that's nothing new at all and has nothing to do with European supremacy.

But the point I was making is: the poster I was addressing has apparently extrapolated from intersectional theory this idea that the passing phenomenon of European supremacy has resulted in every class of person other than European heterosexual men suffering from some sort of societal exclusion (a reference to the intersectional theory of marginalization, which IMO is a reworking of the Marxist theory of alienation). But the reality is that the domination of the aforementioned "privileged" class was never absolute, and there are plenty of other classes of persons who do not suffer from societal exclusion, which becomes especially clear when certain other areas of the world are referenced.
 

malakos

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Heya, long time no see :p

Were you gone for a while, or you just stepped away from politics forums so I haven't seen you?

Howdy! I've been here and there. But yeah, mostly not posting in Politics. As the years go by it becomes more and more apparent to me how the style of debate that is the standard in that forum is vain and worthless, and so the range of threads that seem worth commenting on becomes narrower and narrower.
 

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For one thing, I don't think one could make the case that the Japanese (not Japanese-Americans) were ever wholly oppressed by the Europeans. The Meiji did a pretty good job of averting that possibility. As for the post-War era, I hope you're not suggesting there's something special about the downtrodden conditions of being a country that instigated a war and then lost it. Because that's nothing new at all and has nothing to do with European supremacy.

But the point I was making is: the poster I was addressing has apparently extrapolated from intersectional theory this idea that the passing phenomenon of European supremacy has resulted in every class of person other than European heterosexual men suffering from some sort of societal exclusion (a reference to the intersectional theory of marginalization, which IMO is a reworking of the Marxist theory of alienation). But the reality is that the domination of the aforementioned "privileged" class was never absolute, and there are plenty of other classes of persons who do not suffer from societal exclusion, which becomes especially clear when certain other areas of the world are referenced.

Of course I am not arguing the West caused Japan's militarism that was forged in their own particular racism and supremacy, successive technical culture shocks and yes, the opening up of Japanese culture to counterfactuals which would culminate in the defeat of the doctrine of Imperialist divine authority and the feudal order that sustained it. Except it didn't because Japanese culture faced a defeat so resounding it is still grappling with it in a way we do not grasp fully. The oppression of Japan begins with colonialism and the Jesuits. It's not the same colonialism experienced elsewhere. It's unique. Largely because Japan is still ethnically Japanese and this because citizenship is reserved for Japanese. The effects of colonialist imperialism are much more subtle and different, but not nonexistent.

My point is that you cannot apply the same lens to understanding intersectionality in Japan as in the US. For one, the theory is American. The colonial body is different in the US. Crenshaw is not a Marxist. Your exegesis is outside of what the original thinker intended. I'm sticking with power structures which is Foucauldian analysis. Foucault is not a Marxist. He's closer to a neoliberal. But again this theory was developed regionally for Black North Americans and their struggle. In the US, white cisgendered males who are heterosexual hold the most privilege based on any metric. Going to Japan is a diversion. The theory was not developed for Japan. Plenty of places have different social history and class differences.

The term exclusion is too strong. What we are expressing is marginalization. In the U.S. this happens according to markers of race class gender etc. which it does the world over. However, taking the US and doing comparative analysis to disprove using other nations is pointless. Of course it doesn't line up. These are different countries. Cisgendered... are not the leaders in every nation. That doesn't make the argument for Imtersectionality wrong, it means power structures differ.
 

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I'm having trouble following your narrative here. I'm not chopping up your post to drop points, just trying to break it into smaller pieces.

When you're talking about Japanese oppression here, are you talking about the oppression of Japanese in America? Or Japanese in Japan? And where do you see colonialism, racism, and imperialism playing into it (particularly if you're talking about Japanese in Japan)?

I'm contrasting ethnic privilege in Japan with that of Japanese Americans in the US during WWII. Malakos suggests that since Japan isn't white dominated intersectionality is wrong on the point in question. But the issue is North American as it has been expressed. Japan had a different colonial experience from the USA. But it was colonized. The effects of this colonization are twofold here: decay and decline of the ideology of divine right and the rule of emperors and the introduction of techniques and ideas at fundamental odds with tradition. These two movements set Japan on a course to the second world war. Colonialism and the financial usurpation of trade as well as Imperialist occupation in political economic and ideological circles for western profit are the ways in which Japan 'lost' the colonialism game.
 

TexanStar

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I'm contrasting ethnic privilege in Japan with that of Japanese Americans in the US during WWII. Malakos suggests that since Japan isn't white dominated intersectionality is wrong on the point in question. But the issue is North American as it has been expressed. Japan had a different colonial experience from the USA. But it was colonized. The effects of this colonization are twofold here: decay and decline of the ideology of divine right and the rule of emperors and the introduction of techniques and ideas at fundamental odds with tradition. These two movements set Japan on a course to the second world war. Colonialism and the financial usurpation of trade as well as Imperialist occupation in political economic and ideological circles for western profit are the ways in which Japan 'lost' the colonialism game.

You're still losing me. Set aside everything after world war 2. Let me know how the military invasion of China by the Empire of Japan is an example of colonial oppression of Japan?

I mean, if we're going to go the route that adverse economic conditions were affecting Japan at the time they invaded China, then we might as well say that the Nazi regime in Germany were the oppressed and not the oppressors (by way of the unfair terms placed upon them during the treaty of Versailles).

Those poor German nazis and those poor Japanese rapemongers! Do you see where I'm getting confused? If you want to talk about the terms of Japan's surrender and how that has had an impact on Japan we can, but what are you bringing pre WW2 into this? Japan was an imperialist nation. Caucasian Imperialism is bad and Asian Imperialism is okay? I'm just lost...
 
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AlteredEgo

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Sorry but I disagree. People face injustice and struggle. It's nice that they want to make other people's lives better. No need to face the exact same struggle. Help is always a nice and thoughtful move, if the motives are good that is.
There is a difference in the role of Ally and oppressed.