Exploiting The Male Gullibilty Quotient

Love-it

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FYI,

My mother has a master's degree and is now retired after a long and successful career. She is lately retired from the boards of directors of two corporations.

My maternal grandmother is also a college graduate and achieved seats on six boards of directors, two public corporations, and four not-for-profit national organizations.

My eighth great-grandmother led an expedition of several workmen and two native Americans from Staten Island, up the Hudson to Newburgh and then trekked inland to a land grant and there supervised work on clearing and building on the land patent of her indenture holders.

She did that at age 16 and was the first white woman in Orange county, New York.

My sixth great-grandmother was at the Four Fort Massacre. When her husband fell at his gun she took-up his arm and fought, barely escaping with her life as she was so wounded to appear dead. She was later granted veteran status by Congress.

My twenty-eighth great-grandmother was Eleanor of Aquitaine.

My eighteenth great-grandmother was Catherine de Medici.

I have NO problem with women who change gender roles, have been raised with a family of women who did (all the female members of my family, mother, two sisters, only female first cousin, all have masters degrees. My first cousin also holds several awards for winning tractor trailer driving rodeos (she's a very interesting person)), and I was raised in a household where women were expected to work outside the home and taught to rely on no one else for their happiness, finances, or successes.

jason_els is very erudite on this subject and has quite the family tree to back up his position of having some understanding on womens place in "history". While there are exceptions, or many exceptions to this "rule" there are many men and women who dwell within these boundaries that we now understand can be flexible.
 

jason_els

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yongdo said:
What change? There is NO change as demonstrated above.

Ugh. :banghead2:

You're saying none of these women were expected to sit at home, do needlework, cook, give birth, clean house, spin wool, and make themselves look pretty. No men thought them impertinent and no women thought them immodest?

History is replete with writings about women who did not act womanly and what society, men and other women alike, thought of them. It wasn't all men hating women, quite a few women wrote about the supposed failings of their own sex. Female writers of pre-Revolutionary France wrote romance novels that frequently denigrated their own sex. These novels were written by women for women and still they are seen as misogynist.

The discourse of misogyny runs like a rich vein throughout the breadth of medieval literature. Like allegory itself, to which (for reasons we do not have time to explore) it is peculiarly attracted, antifeminism is both a genre and a topos, or, as Paul Zumthor might suggest, a "register"&#8212;a discourse visible across a broad spectrum of poetic types.[2] Excellent examples are to be found in Latin satires like John of Salisbury's Policraticus , Walter Map's De nugis curialium (especially the Letter of Valerius to Rufinum), Andreas Capellanus's Art of Courtly Love (book 3), as well as in the .XV. Joies de mariage and what is perhaps the most virulent antimatrimonial satire in the vernacular tongue, Jehan Le F&#232;vre's translation of the Lamentations de Matheolus . Misogyny is virtually synonymous with the works grouped under the rubric of "les genres du r&#233;alisme bourgeois": the comic tale or fabliaux (including Middle English and Italian versions); the animal fable (Roman de Renart ); the comic theater or farce; but also certain mixed or unclassifiable forms like the chantefable Aucassin et Nicolette or Adam de la Halle's Jeu de la feuill&#233;e ; and, of course, Jean de Meun's portion of the Roman de la rose.

So persistent is the discourse of misogyny&#8212;from the earliest church fathers to Chaucer&#8212;that the uniformity of its terms furnishes an important link between the Middle Ages and the present and renders the topic compelling because such terms still govern (consciously or not) the ways in which the question of woman is conceived by women as well as by men.

-Misogyny, Misandry, and Misanthropy; R. Howard Bloch and Frances Ferguson, ed., 1989.

My ninth great-aunt, Mary Sanford, was hanged in Hartford, CT for being a witch. She didn't quite comform to her community's expectations and look what happened to her.
 

Ethyl

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"Lately," has nothing to do with this post. I have not argued a bit about what modern roles are as they do not apply. This is why I have been very careful to confine this argument to historic roles. You have used this arument as an opportunity to ascribe to me arguments about modern roles which I have not made in the original post.



In that you have me. I've used, "traditional" nearly interchangably with, "innate." I did this because we are speaking of the socieities from which we have all come from. Our ancestors followed this model for thousands of years, probably since before we were Homo sapiens. When I'm speaking of traditional, I'm refering to the time period from pre-history to the industrial revolution, not how your great-grandparents did things unless your great-grandparents were members of a remote hunter-gatherer people.

The fact that every society yet discovered adheres or adhered to these gender roles, I argue, points to an instinctual basis for early human social construction. I'm not alone in this. Evolutionary psychologists are positing this very argument. Please see:

Buss, D.M. (2004). Evolutionary Psychology: The New Science of the Mind. Boston: Pearson Education, Inc.

Carey, G. (2003) Human Genetics for the Social Sciences. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications

The Human Genome Project for Behavioral Genetics

Human Behavior & Evolution Society



Again, you've not read carefully. I posited quite clearly by stating that these are average tendencies, not absolute. I stated that there are indeed exceptions.

I do read history books and quite a few others. The fact is simple. Over the world, in cultures which had no contact with each other since the first African diaspora, men have been the hunter/protectors and women the child bearers/home and community makers. This is the overwhelming social construct in hunter-gatherer and appropriate technology agrarian socieites. It has nothing to do with who leads the socieites either. I made no comment about that as its apparently irrelevant. Women and men have led various forms of these socieities with no apparent change to the traditional gender role structure.



You're speaking of a modern urban construct. I agree, there is no need for the male default any longer, hence many men are floundering, trying to find a role for themselves in society as something other than sperm depositers. Rejection of traditional roles by women has created an effect in men that is still not understood, perhaps because the process is still ongoing. In any event, it is, at most, ancillary to my argument as my argument deals with pre-modern social roles.



ALL of science is only theory. Even though mathematical proofs exist for mathematical theories, the problems are still officially theories. In physics, Kepler's Laws of Planetary Movement are STILL theories. In any event, I have cited a qualified published source which is as good as it gets in science. You have not.



Again, my argument has NOTHING to do with this. I was afraid people would leap to conclusions like this, hence my emphatic disclaimation of precisely this point. I reiterate that men and women have particular, usual but not exclusive, tendencies and talents dictated by nature to serve survival and reproductive functions. We've inherited those tendencies as standardized testing has shown that there are tendencies for each sex to excel in those certain areas that assisted those survival and reproductive roles from long ago. Those behaviors and instincts have not gone away. If anything, science is re-discovering that nature is just as important as nurture, that the sexes are different in their behavior, perceptions, and methods of thinking. To confuse this with the ability of one sex to behave or perform any particular job is a mistake in logical assumption.

What's the point of all this? Are you trying to say nature is responsible for men being gullible and women taking advantage of them? I hope not because that's horseshit. Manipulation is something men and women do equally well although we may use different means to reach the end goal. I think the OP's example of the rich, old man proves that people, men and women, make sound decisions to delude themselves on a regular basis and others take advantage of that sometimes. Pretty simple to me and doesn't need articles about evolutionary behavior to reinforce that fact.
 

Ethyl

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What change? There is NO change as demonstrated above.

Could you imagine a discussion on a "Vagina Support Board" similar to this one going on with men espousing masculinist viewpoints and many women kissing their asses all the while?

Hell, I couldn't even imagine a "Vagina" support group (or any other kind of female board) with a "Men's Issues" section where hey "women are welcome to participate too".

You always were a troll. Do you ever have anything nice to say about women?

Just because YOU can't image a similar discussion on a support group for vaginas doesn't mean it can't or wouldn't happen. Ask the other women here and see what they would say.
 

transformer_99

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I think the OP's example of the rich, old man proves that people, men and women, make sound decisions to delude themselves on a regular basis and others take advantage of that sometimes.

Who's to say the rich old man is deluding himself ? Maybe he knows exactly what is going on, it doesn't bother him a bit, because he's just going to turn around and raise the price of a gallon of gas, gallon of milk or the premium on our insurances to pay for this young, tight bodied, piece of @ss, he's enjoying today and may very well replace tomorrow with the next one that strikes his fancy for however long it's worthwhile to him ? Perhaps this is viewed similar to automobiles, drive them for a little while and get the reliable trouble free use out of them and unload them before the problems become an overwhelming burden ? Yeah, I know it's a sh*tty way of using people, then again, he's rich, so your theory holds on making sound decisions and taking advantage.
 

jason_els

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What's the point of all this? Are you trying to say nature is responsible for men being gullible and women taking advantage of them? I hope not because that's horseshit.

I have made my points with every attempt to be clear and concise. If you have not understood what I've said then I don't know what else I could say that would help you to do so.

Manipulation is something men and women do equally well although we may use different means to reach the end goal.

Certainly so.

I think the OP's example of the rich, old man proves that people, men and women, make sound decisions to delude themselves on a regular basis and others take advantage of that sometimes.

I have questions in that example about who is deluding who. Stupid people don't keep money very long. I think any 80 year old guy who gets some 20 year old hottie is not operating under any delusions. Certainly she may become fond of the old geezer, but ultimately she's there for the cash.

He's lived his life, he's rich, he's secure, and he wants to bang models. She's young and spending her youth selling her body for money. She gets money, he gets her youth. As I see it, you can always get more money, youth is something else entirely. That must cross the mind of those who do these sorts of things and I fear the terrible reasons that push them to such ends.

Those who sell false love may learn regret is a dreadful spectre no bank account can dispell.

Pretty simple to me and doesn't need articles about evolutionary behavior to reinforce that fact.

How I envy you that! I find that I must weigh complex issues with lengthy investigation of fact and opinion, then consider it all before coming to conclusions lest I seem a fool.
 

yongdo

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You always were a troll. Do you ever have anything nice to say about women?

Just because YOU can't image a similar discussion on a support group for vaginas doesn't mean it can't or wouldn't happen. Ask the other women here and see what they would say.
[FONT=&quot]
EDITED

Mary Christmas and a Happy New Year

Best wishes for a happiness, joy and sucess

(I do not wish to get "into it" with you again on any level)
[/FONT]
 

Lordpendragon

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i'm beginning to wonder if that's a problem for men and in the back of their minds they worry that they're no longer of much use to us except for sex and children.

I think we worry that you don't need us in person for these either.

However, I know that there are women who will always want me around.

I'm not afraid of spiders. :smile:
 

Ethyl

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Who's to say the rich old man is deluding himself ? Maybe he knows exactly what is going on, it doesn't bother him a bit, because he's just going to turn around and raise the price of a gallon of gas, gallon of milk or the premium on our insurances to pay for this young, tight bodied, piece of @ss, he's enjoying today and may very well replace tomorrow with the next one that strikes his fancy for however long it's worthwhile to him ? Perhaps this is viewed similar to automobiles, drive them for a little while and get the reliable trouble free use out of them and unload them before the problems become an overwhelming burden ? Yeah, I know it's a sh*tty way of using people, then again, he's rich, so your theory holds on making sound decisions and taking advantage.

His gullibility quotient is sky high but that's because he's obviously either deluding himself into thinking she wants him and not his stuff or he doesn't care what she thinks or wants as long as she's there to drape herself on his arm and look fabulous, all the while making him look fabulous by association.
 

yongdo

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When anyone (male or female) enters a relationship with an agenda there is room for exploitation which will necessarily follow.

But, by the very nature of karma, once in a relationship where you exploit the other person you will be exploited as well.

The solution: (Difficult as it is at times) Peruse “divine” relationships (both with friends and lovers) which is based on caring love and not “what can I get”.



“No one wins, It’s a war of man.”
Neil Young