Ezekiel has Persia (Iran) top the list in Armageddon.

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by B_superlarge, Dec 26, 2007.

  1. B_superlarge

    B_superlarge New Member

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    First off, I'm not much of a believer in the chance of there actually being a God. Having said that I try not to completely shut the door to the possibility. I've studied many aspects of this but won't go into why I feel the chance is so slim. That's not the purpose of this thread - to debate whether God exists or not. The purpose of my post is to address something I do however find interesting and reminds me of the news surrounding Iran these days. Even if there is anything to the phophecy of Iran playing a role in the end of times, they don't at this time seem to be in a position to acquire the nuclear bomb despite their wishes (but who knows for sure). They state that they have no intentions of using any bombs for attack. One thing about it though, if their desire for nuclear capability and strong hatred towards Israel remains the same (which somehow seems cannot and will not change), then someday, someway, it will probably happen, even if it's still 100+ years away (or less).
     
  2. rob_just_rob

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    I don't think I've ever seen this many equivocations/qualifiers crammed into one sentence.
     
  3. mrkun

    mrkun New Member

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    There really is no hatred of Israel in Iran. What you're responding to is just political rhetoric from Ahmadinejad, whose position affords him no authority over Iran's military.
     
  4. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Iran is so fucked...

    They really do have an energy crisis due to their own gross mismanagement of their oil resources. Gasoline is rationed like it was here in the 70s.

    Israel won't let Iran get to that point. Israel will not allow a hostile nation to have nukes nor even allow them to get to that point. Iran has missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads and reaching Israel. The US can yank Israel's leash all they want, at some point Israel will do what it thinks is best.

    Israel is tiny, about the size of New Jersey. One nuclear strike on Tel Aviv and the nation has been successfully partitioned. Syria swoops in from the north over the Golan and the north is occupied. That leaves Israel with the unenviable position of retreating to the Negev desert. Two nukes exploded over Israel and the show's over. Jerusalem need not be touched at all to successfully destroy Israel as a nation.

    Israel does not acknowledge that it has nuclear weapons though South Africa has admitted to working with Israel to successfully create and detonate a nuclear device, which they did back in the 80s. South Africa is the only nation to have developed nuclear weapons and then dismantle them. Israel will neither confirm nor deny their nuclear capability though it's considered an open secret.

    Iran is a bit of an enigma. Ahmadinejad is a goof and a loudmouth. Iranians like that he thumbs his nose at the world, but he's actually the head of a minority faction that won elections after the two other large parties couldn't get a quorum in parliament. Most Iranians think he's an oaf. Even then Ahmadinejad is kept on a leash by the council of mullahs who he has to answer to. They run the country and are why 1) Iranians tolerate Ahmadinejad more than they ordinarily would, and 2) why Ahmadinejad isn't seen as the threat he appears to be. He spews rhetoric and so do we. Nobody does anything.

    Don't believe everything you hear about Iran from either Ahmadinejad or Bush. The mullahs may be crazy but they're not stupid. Neither is Israel and the mullahs know that. You want to worry then keep an eye on Russia, Somalia, and the Kurds. Turkey is having their way with Kurdistan and it's another Armenia in the making.
     
  5. JustAsking

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    What arrogance to think that things predicted in the Bible applies to only our time. Prophets do not make predictions. What they do is raise our awareness of timeless and universal truths.
     
  6. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    Think of what they'd do if there actually were a Kurdistan.:scared2:
     
  7. JustAsking

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    Accurate and concise. This is also what I understand about the situation. Ahmadinejad has a bigger following outside of Iran than inside Iran. And it is all with those that love his America-bashing. I admire your ablility to convey all this so well.
     
  8. mrkun

    mrkun New Member

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    They can't import refining equipment due to U.S. sanctions.

    I think during the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon the Prime Minister (or some other high up government person) was on TV in Europe and very strongly implied that Israel did have nuclear weapons.

    You have a problem with Armenia? :wink:
     
  9. JustAsking

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    No, I think he means Turkey did.
     
  10. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    Ahmadinejad won the popular vote in a presidential election.
    The conservative parties won big in the 2004 elections for the Majlis (parliament).
    Ahmadinejad, also, obviously, a conservative, came in only in 2005.
    I don't think parliamentary horse-trading has anything to do with his power.
     
  11. B_superlarge

    B_superlarge New Member

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    I have no arrogance or claim any special insight concerning this. I just find it interesting. I think perhaps the arrogance you speak of is pertaining to religious leaders who have applied Ezekial to our times. So perhaps it's arrogant of me to wonder if you were talking to me, heh. Yes, jason was very clear and I immediately sense he knows much on this subject. Still though, I doubt even jason would claim to be 100&#37; sure even about the next 10 years. Unexpected twists and complications happen. Yes, look at Russia. After all we've done to try and help them get back on their feet and yet Putin has been treating us with contempt. What will the new Russian leader be like? How close will they become with Iran. Will they aid Iran's desire behind closed doors. Through Russia Iran could become more dangerous than we think possible. Just saying. Besides, Iran may be fucked now, but what about 30 years from now, or 50 or 100. Things could be so different. Are you so sure that what Ezekial wrote can't turn out to be so someday in the future. I don't think jason will claim certainty that far in advance.
     
  12. mrkun

    mrkun New Member

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    A lot of people boycotted the election. Only people approved the Guardian Council (Mullahs) are allowed to run. Also, Ahmadinejad ran on a populist platform.
     
  13. JustAsking

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    That's right, super. I was referring to religious leaders who think that 6.2 billion years of creation was all done so that in their particular lifetime God will enact his cosmic plan in the exact way they happen to see it.

    As for Jason's post, I have heard plenty about Iran lately outside of the worthless tv network sources to know that Jason is pretty much right. The bureau chiefs reporting from Iran for BBC and NPR all said pretty much the same thing. I was just impressed by how succinctly Jason conveyed it.

    And you are also right to suspect that other outside influences could be a worse problem than influences internal to Iran.
     
  14. mrkun

    mrkun New Member

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    The IMF and World Bank ass raped Russia when the Soviet Union collapsed. That's why the people are so anti-US these days.
     
  15. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Since when does the IMF and World Bank not ass rape their clients? Russia knew full well what it was getting into though I admit Yeltsin may have signed on the dotted line while he was a bit tipsy. As it is now, Russia has no debt, much to the dismay of the IMF/World Bank bankers. Putin has paid back all of Russia's debts and made the ruble the hardest currency there is surpassing the Swiss Franc. He's not a dope and will not play by the west's rules.

    We are morons. We learn nothing from history. Russia is Russia is Russia and I mean that in the truest sense of Alice B. Toklas's sentiment (Stein stole it from her). Any designs the west, either economically or politically, has on Russia will fail unless they happen to be of Russia's will. Russia cannot be controlled, cannot be conquered, cannot be manipulated. She may be weak (for now) but she's very fat and very wise in the ways of the world. All those twentysomething MBAs in the employ of NGOs have no clue. Putin is canny, brilliant, and well-schooled in Russian history. He knows precisely what it takes to run Russia and has positioned the country to boom. Watch the next 20 years; you'll see Russia prosper in ways we can't imagine if Russia does what's right for Russia. She doesn't always. The only westerner to truly understand Russia is Armand Hammer and he's dead.

    If the people of Russia are pissed at the US it's because we treat them like a charity case. They see us as supremely naive and nothing is more galling than being patronized by parvenus with too much money. Even Birnbuam's travel guide got it right when the state department didn't. He said the biggest sin in Russia was pride. Russians are (rightfully) prideful people and nothing insults them more than the how they were treated by the west after the fall of the Communists. They chewed us up and spit us out. They will do it again. They have the brain power, the natural resources, and a supreme pragmatism that the US so obviously lacks.

    No, of course I can't discount the prophesies of Ezekiel any more than I can the prophesies of Nostradamus or the fortune teller down the street.

    Iran is Russia's client state-- useful for creating a bee in the bonnet of the west and, by happy circumstance, a close neighbor on the border where Russia is experiencing what we so neatly call, insurgency problems. Gaining Iran's assistance in controlling their end of the border or, at least, not directly helping the radical Muslim elements in the southern Caucasus, is useful to Russia. Otherwise Russia certainly does not want the US invading and occupying Iran. Russia doesn't need another American client state on her border and absolutely not one on that border. Every sub-republic on that border has major Islamic independence movements (remember Chechnya, that IS where Chechnya is). We, the US, may say that we don't like Islamic independence movements but if we move into Iran I can bet you dollars to donuts that we start supporting the Islamic independence movements in the southern Caucasus just to keep Russia annoyed. Putin knows this and is playing Iran against the US to keep the US out of the region to the extent possible and to bribe Iran to keep her from supporting the Islamist movements in the area.

    Iran is being used and while Ahmadinejad may not know that, the mullahs surely do and will get Russia to give them what (because of US sanctions) the westernized nations will not. Russia is overseeing the nuclear reactors. Russia is supplying refinery equipment, Russia is even, ironies of ironies, supplying Iran with gasoline! The US is perfectly happy to have Russia manage Iran's nuclear program because, despite everything, Russia has proven it knows how to build and maintain nuclear facilities (Chernobyl was, sadly, preventable and caused by human-error). Better to have Russia manage nuclear facilities than towelheads, is the thinking in the west.

    The southern Caucasus also happens to be a major petroleum producing area for Russia. Ahem.
     
  16. petergroot

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    I like the way you put things, Jason.
    As a "foreigner", born in the only country to give up nuclear weapons, and now resident in Singapore, I have developed a (un)healthy dose of cynicism re world politics(of which I know not a lot). I used to think USA held the moral high ground, but no longer. The problem is not wholly the rest of the world, it is with that rogue state, the USA.(Certainly under Bush II). There is no respect for history, certainly not in the corridors of power, so the ruling family will repeat the same recent mistakes. There is no respect for culture, except for exploitation and "self interest"(read corporate profits ). There is also no respect for the American constitution, and the rights of the American people. But by god, Bush and Co. has GOD on their side, so all is OK. As for the IMF and World bank, they are the the instruments used by multinationals to browbeat "Third-world" nations into giving up the family silver to enrich a small elite in those nations at the expense of the majority.
    So on re-reading my post, I am starting to sound like an old-time commie.
    Anyway, that rant is of my chest now.
     
  17. Ethyl

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  18. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    Are you sure that Stein stole it from Toklas? Just curious. I'm a bit of a Stein buff (reformed, however), and I didn't know this.

    Do you mean, as you seem to do, the southern part of the Caucasus? Because that would basically be Georgia (Orthodox Christian), Armenia (Armenian Apostolic) and Azerbaijan (Muslim, but anything but religiously radical). Unless, of course, this is suddenly changing.

    For Russia? For the world, they would say.
    They have recently constructed an oil pipeline that will ship their oil to Ceyhan, in Turkey, for further shipment to points west.
    (I'm not suggesting that Russia won't remain a customer.)
     
  19. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    A fitting case of past is prologue.

    Not 100&#37;, no. It was told to me by my English lit teacher in college. Where she got that idea I don't know, but she has a PhD and I do not. I'm a sucker for the appeal to authority argument :wink:.

    Only about half of Georgia is Christian and then only in the urban areas. The rural population is largely authentically pagan. Georgia is one of the few European places where Christianity has not completely penetrated over the years.

    In my reference I'm talking about everything south of the Volga. Armenia isn't an issue. They don't have oil and Turkey is Armenia's traditional foil. They're a non-entity. Take a look at this map. It shows the regions of Chechnya and Ingusetia. That brown spot, just above Georgia, is the area in question as is Azerbaijan itself as is the tan spot to the right, Dagestan. Look how many ethnic Azerbaijanis live in northern Iran. Iran has plenty of influence on Azerbaijan should Iran choose to use it as Azerbaijan holds the second largest population of Shia muslims in the world (just behind Iran itself). Many Azerbaijanis, however, identify themselves as Turkish and that's the main difference between the two countries. There are millions of Azerbaijani Turks living in Iran but they feel they're second class citizens, oppressed by Persian superiority. Here's another map showing the republics in question.

    Despite this, southern Azerbaijan does have a movement to join Iran:

    Dagestan is no more stable. Dagestan is a muslim republic though largely Sufist Sunni with a relatively small population of Azeri Shia. Since 2000 Dagestan has been in civil war (remember we don't read about these things in the west because Bushco made a deal with Putin to pressure media not to in exchange for silence in Iraq). There's a very good report released by the Russian and Eurasian Security Network (RES) on the situation in the northern (and southern) Caucasus. You have to download the txt/pdf document to read it.

    Given the instability of the region, Iran could easily work at influencing the separatist elements in all these countries and does to some degree mainly as a PR move, but not to the degree it could. That mitigating force is Russian support for Iran. In exchange for staying largely out of the Russian republics regional conflict, Russia provides Iran with support of various sorts.

    The Russians or the west? Which pipeline? I know about the western pipeline running from the Caspian, but not a Russian pipeline.
     
  20. Bbucko

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    Jason-

    Your grasp of the situation (about which I know N O T H I N G) is astounding.

    Jus sayin'
     
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