Failure of socialism

[vince]

Ah, the American Dream. Where anyone can move to America, Work 4 jobs, sleep 2 hours a night, and still be hated by "hard working, white Americans"

yet they still keep coming.

Get stuffed.

 

[deleted15807]

And never mind 'socialism' not one country listed so far meets the definiton of 'socialism', it's just the usual smear.

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

​

And when a scholar at the conservative bastion AEI says Obama is facing the 'socialist smear' you know something is wrong in Oz.

Obama: A pragmatic moderate faces the 'socialist' smear

 

[vince]

A number of posters have suggested that China is communist.
Is this true?
I don't think so.
To be sure, there is still one-party rule.
And the government does control to a great extent a number of industries, though that control is being relinquished steadily.
There's actually a lot of free capitalist enterprise going on (with less regulation than in many countries), a rising wealthy class, and very few social programs.
Get sick in China and your family will take care of you in hospital.
So China is communist in name only.
Communist economics have been pretty irrelevant since Deng Xiaoping said, "Doesn't matter if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice."
They are beyond ideology ... and communism was above all an ideology.

Of course you are correct. I used the example of China to point out how ridiculous the OP's opening premise is- Greece is a socialist country... Greece is having a fiscal meltdown... Therefore socialism is bad.

And commie Red China great?

As a Greek member pointed out, the problems of Greece go much deeper than whatever ideology Starinvestor thinks they follow. It has more to do with corruption and the accounting lies they told to get into the Eurozone.

Of course he doesn't accept that his reasoning is screwy. The world and it's problems are a little more complex than simplistic ideologies and 1+1=2 reasoning can explain.

Short circuited thinking, greed and laziness has more to do with America's fall than anything else. Witness the breast-beating of "well, the world still seeks the safe -haven of the US dollar". lol... Sorry they have been completely brainwashed and had their pockets picked clean.

 

[B_starinvestor]

The mere existence of a social welfare system does not make the US in any way socialist. Massive subsidy to your agricultural system might count as "leaning socialist" but providing a frankly rather meager safety net for the very poorest and most vulnerable does not make the USA especially socialist. Socialism is a formal political ideology, are you familiar with it?

60% of gov't spending is not 'meager.' the agriculural subsidies are a fart in the wind; not even a rounding error in the federal budget.

So you admit that in the absence of properly funded social security provision there would be chaos? Presumably you would also fully support mass immigration to the US to prevent this demographic shift from becoming unmanageable, thus averting this chaos you claim is inevitable?

A mass immigration would add to the problem, not avert it.

Perhaps you would have been better off not allowing your banking system to degenerate in to a criminally incompetent gambling and extortion ring, forcing the massive borrowing you're so terrified of, then you might still be able to afford the already inadequate social welfare provision you currently have.

Our borrowing problems preceded the banking meltdown. I concur though that the banking corruption was devastating.

Currency markets buy any currency they deem to have value, the dollar has finally shown greater levels of value than the euro after a significant period of time, it's not a sign of anything in particular, just that the dollar is believed by some to be less unsafe an investment than the euro. Tomorrow it could be dollar which is being sold and another currency which is being bought, it's certainly not a massive vote of confidence in US economic policies, just an estimation of the likelihood of how much sooner the markets believe the euro will be a less good investment.

Which side of your mouth is this paragraph coming from? "believed by some?" to be less unsafe? Are you kidding? There is a bubble in the dollar. Money is coming in from everywhere in the world to get 3% on a U.S. Treasury bond.

Believed by some? Uh, okay.

This also means nothing, what are you basing this gross generalisation on? Proper formal Socialism has never been implemented anywhere, so how could you possibly know if its idealistic or not, or whether or not it works

Answer your own question. Why hasn't it been properly implemented anywhere?

Because it doesn't work.

 

[B_starinvestor]

As a Greek member pointed out, the problems of Greece go much deeper than whatever ideology Starinvestor thinks they follow. It has more to do with corruption and the accounting lies they told to get into the Eurozone.

Right - but the utter reliance on social programs has fostered the rioting and pandamonium. Unhitch people from the nipple and they go nuts - social programs create dependence and desperation.

Of course he doesn't accept that his reasoning is screwy. The world and it's problems are a little more complex than simplistic ideologies and 1+1=2 reasoning can explain.

Of course they are complex; but at the heart of the problem is the fostering of dependence and a 'gimme gimme gimme' attitude from the unproductive segment.

Short circuited thinking, greed and laziness has more to do with America's fall than anything else. Witness the breast-beating of "well, the world still seeks the safe -haven of the US dollar". lol... Sorry they have been completely brainwashed and had their pockets picked clean.

Agree with the first sentence.

the rest - u call it breast-beating; I call it a fact. Perception is reality in the marketplace, Vince.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

"A perfect example of the sort of trolling thread intro that will soon be banned here.".......... Stop feeding the trolls as discussed?

Observation does not equate to endorsement nor participation.

 

[D_Joseba_Guntertwat]

I think it's funny when people say that capitalism has failed. Because it quite clearly hasn't. The main reason is that capitalism is not really an ideology as such - if anything it's a system without any ideology, it's about economic freedom. Of course people should be free to get rich if they want to and they can. But like most freedoms, there are sometimes situations where new laws is needed (e.g. the banking crisis). Trouble is, there is no way to know those laws are needed until things go wrong.

It's also silly to say that socialism has failed. Most European countries (and even the US) are socialist to a certain extent, in that they have a welfare system. Socialism helps the less well off in society, but it also creates a new set of problems. Norway, probably the most socialist country in Western Europe, has lots of money from oil so they can afford to throw it around. However, not many people know that they actually have an unemployment rate of over 20%. The official figure is 3%, but that doesn't include people who are on "long term sick leave", which apparently doesn't require any serious illness to be on it. I seriously doubt that 23% of Norwegians of working age are actually so ill that they cannot work, yet they claim to be. Like any system, if people can take advantage of it they will. That is the main flaw in socialism.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

A mass immigration would add to the problem, not avert it.

How exactly? Your not even using your own logic here anymore.

Answer your own question. Why hasn't it been properly implemented anywhere?

Because it doesn't work.

No one has ever actually tried (except for a brief shining moment in Barcelona during the Spanish Civil War, but Fascist governments rushed to snuff that out before it had a chance) but perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that you don't have much of grasp of history, you are randomly calling the Greeks, Italians, Spanish and Portuguese Socialist in spite of every evidence to the contrary.

Perhaps you'd like to blame climate change on the evils of British communism?

 

[D_Harvey Schmeckel]

Thank you, Hilaire, for:

Perhaps you would have been better off not allowing your banking system to degenerate in to a criminally incompetent gambling and extortion ring, forcing the massive borrowing you're so terrified of, then you might still be able to afford the already inadequate social welfare provision you currently have.

I hope to see that message repeated to those who are witchhunting for socialist enemies, until they catch of glimpse of this truth: the greatest threat to American capitalism is American capitalists.

 

[B_starinvestor]

Thank you, Hilaire, for:

Perhaps you would have been better off not allowing your banking system to degenerate in to a criminally incompetent gambling and extortion ring, forcing the massive borrowing you're so terrified of, then you might still be able to afford the already inadequate social welfare provision you currently have.

I hope to see that message repeated to those who are witchhunting for socialist enemies, until they catch of glimpse of this truth: the greatest threat to American capitalism is American capitalists.

Remind me again why the U.S. is only 234 years old and is the most dominant political, military and economic power in the world?

Hint: It's not because we have constructed a socialist government.

I don't view socialist countries as enemies. Just economically weak friends that are, for the most part, very envious of our society.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Remind me again why the U.S. is only 234 years old and is the most dominant political, military and economic power in the world?

Hint: It's not because we have constructed a socialist government.

I don't view socialist countries as enemies. Just economically weak friends that are, for the most part, very envious of our society.

Are you serious? Do you think this counts as considered and reasonable political thought? Rather than the immature and irrational passions and silly presumptions of a teenager?

You keep believing that there are any socialist countries and you keep on fantasising that any of them are envious of your society if you want. Clearly you need to do a lot more reading and a lot more thinking before anyone around here can be expected to have an intelligent discussion with you. I'm done.

 

[B_starinvestor]

Lol all european countries are "socialist".

The US is "agrarian socialist" with massive subsidies to farmers. And of course corporate welfare like bank bailouts, AIG, GM etc.


Australia has virtually no farm subsidies and little federal debt. We didnt need to bail out failed banks, and we've have socialized medicine for 40 years because we can afford it.

It is impressive that Australia was basically Alcatraz island for England - the country was first inhabited by English criminals that were banished to that faraway island so that they couldn't inflict harm on English society, and now they have evolved into a country that didn't have to bail out failed banks.

It honestly says alot about the potential of a coordinated society of people, even criminals, that band together and actually become productive and self-sufficient.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Remind me again why the U.S. is only 234 years old and is the most dominant political, military and economic power in the world?

Hint: It's not because we have constructed a socialist government.

I don't view socialist countries as enemies. Just economically weak friends that are, for the most part, very envious of our society.

However, you have provided no evidence or even rhetorical justification for this remark.

You continue to suffer from a massive and wholly inexplicable superiority complex... Perhaps you think you're an awesome guy because you do a good job at work in the real world, but nobody here cares. If you want people here to respect your opinions, you're going to have to actually prove your assertions by citing relevant facts and figures, or at least back up your rhetoric with compelling commentary from independent sources.

 

[B_starinvestor]

Are you serious? Do you think this counts as considered and reasonable political thought? Rather than the immature and irrational passions and silly presumptions of a teenager?

You keep believing that there are any socialist countries and you keep on fantasising that any of them are envious of your society if you want. Clearly you need to do a lot more reading and a lot more thinking before anyone around here can be expected to have an intelligent discussion with you. I'm done.

Hmm.

You suggest in a prior post that I am on a witch hunt; and now you want to plead and posture about intelligent discussion?

You might be better suited to the "I went to the grocery and bought.." thread.

Still waiting for an answer on why our relatively young country is in the power position that it is?

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Still waiting for an answer on why our relatively young country is in the power position that it is?

This is not how honest debate works... The onus is on YOU to prove your own assertions, not for others to prove them for you. Nobody here is obligated to rebut your assertions, because you have yet to justify your own assertions. Skeptical people have correctly asked you to support your dubious statements, so that they may better understand your position and formulate a response, and you have consistently declined to do so. In effect, you are admitting that your statements cannot be supported, thus they 'win' before the debate has even begun.

 

[B_starinvestor]

However, you have provided no evidence or even rhetorical justification for this remark.

You continue to suffer from a massive and wholly inexplicable superiority complex... Perhaps you think you're an awesome guy because you do a good job at work in the real world, but nobody here cares. If you want people here to respect your opinions, you're going to have to actually prove your assertions by citing relevant facts and figures, or at least back up your rhetoric with compelling commentary from independent sources.

the quote that you referenced requires no citation Tallpa. It is common knowledge that the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776, and it is common knowledge that the U.S. has never been a 'socialist' government.

It is cumbersome and unnecessary to make citations and links for common knowledge.

I have not introduced statistics or other material that would require documentation in this thread. In an early post, I referenced some statistics about government spending - that I could have cited but they were not used to defend an argument or position, simply a statement in which I agreed with another poster.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Hmm.

You suggest in a prior post that I am on a witch hunt

Show me where? Perhaps you're thinking of another member, maybe you should rant ignorantly at them instead.

 

[Draconis71]

Greece.

Spain.

Portugal.

Italy.

This is clear evidence that socialism cannot survive deep economic recessions.

Step 1 [Greece]: Borrow loads of money to fund entitlements

Step 2: Unproductive economy falters in recession

Step 3: Must cut entitlements because you are out of money

Step 4: Rioting and pandemonium 24/7.

Mmmm. Sign me up for summa that socialism.

Luckily capitalist Germany will bail their sorry asses out.

You missed Canada, Eh?

 

[B_starinvestor]

This is not how honest debate works... The onus is on YOU to prove your own assertions, not for others to prove them for you. Nobody here is obligated to rebut your assertions, because you have yet to justify your own assertions. Skeptical people have correctly asked you to support your dubious statements, so that they may better understand your position and formulate a response, and you have consistently declined to do so. In effect, you are admitting that your statements cannot be supported, thus they 'win' before the debate has even begun.

Gross National Income (most recent) by country

fair enough. Attached is a link which supports my assertion that the U.S. is the most powerful force economically on the globe.

 

[Draconis71]

the quote that you referenced requires no citation Tallpa. It is common knowledge that the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776, and it is common knowledge that the U.S. has never been a 'socialist' government.

It is cumbersome and unnecessary to make citations and links for common knowledge.

I have not introduced statistics or other material that would require documentation in this thread. In an early post, I referenced some statistics about government spending - that I could have cited but they were not used to defend an argument or position, simply a statement in which I agreed with another poster.

With all the scuttlebutt, on Obama, is he not trying to move the US towards socialisim?


Socialisim WILL work, if, it's done on a global basis, and people buy into it. IE: do their part, instead of trying to be "more equal" than anyone else.
remeber, true socialisim/comunisim _IS_ the eutopic form of government.
The only thing holding us back from that is the vermin called the human race.