family disintegration

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jul 2 2005, 07:11 AM
It takes a village!

Anywhere there are caring and concerned adults to raise children, they have a chance. Somtimes, children can grow themselves up in spite of their parents, but more often some decent adult is needed for a child to recogise any hope in the world. I have seen just as many dysfunctional children coming from two-parent homes as from single ones, if the parents are both horrible, it can actually be worse.

[post=325953]Quoted post[/post]​

In the old days, teachers were also parents. Students had the same teacher in elementary all day long and the focal point was to teach and raise the child, not raise test scores. Now first graders and sent from room to room and the teacher as a parent concept is gone. We are teaching subjects, not students in too many schools these days.

It takes a village. I have heard many testimonies from people who had horrible parents, but a very caring teacher, next door neighbor, aunt, uncle, grandparent, minister, person from the church, and the list goes on who stepped up to the plate and gave the child the adult mentoring they needed.

It is rare for an adult to really succeed unless there was some adult in their childhood who provided a mentor, someone to immulate, someone that mattered, someone that they wanted to prove themselves too.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by BruceSter@Jun 30 2005, 11:43 AM
Hi there,

I think character development has a lot to do with the ability of raising yourself, in families as described in the original post of this thread. If the parents themselves are as unstable characters as described, they surely won't do the kid any good, if the kid him/herself isn't able to recognize the parents' behavior as not trustworthy and not exemplary. On the other hand, if the kid takes his (bad behaving) parents as examples for his/her own actions without questioning, that will bring him/her off the right track.

Then again, it's judgemental to just put every family that doesn't follow the AFA ideal into the unable-to-raise box. From my own case, I can't at all say (maybe others disagree, but who cares) that being raised without my mother has had bad effects on me. Okay, for some time, I showed a pretty rough behavior, but I never went off tracks really - maybe because my dad knew how to hold my reigns, not too tight, but tight enough to make me feel where the absolute borders are. Maybe if he had been a weaker man, raising me would have been a difficult task, but that's an option I prefer to exclude.

I also know a girl who had a very untraditional background herself, the subject of a few posts of mine on here, Corrine. She was also raised by her Dad, after her mom had taken a powder shortly after birth. Her acting and mannerisms were in some ways even worse than mine (just in few, though) - she has always had problems obeying rules, and constantly did things that were on the darker end of the black/white scale. Not that her Dad was a weak guy, he didn't hold any reigns over her. But still, her character didn't go completely haywire, she just had her own way of picking rules she wanted to follow and didn't want to follow. She could care for those who cared for her - and was pretty thoughtful about that - but the rest was just ignored.

I'll stay with my conclusion... your ability to raise yourself is an important factor when it comes to character development, especially in a difficult environment as described in the original post. Thanks for lending your ears (eyes) to a layman on this field.

Bruce

[post=325383]Quoted post[/post]​

Bruce,

I read your description of your dad. Man, what a parent. Your dad should be leading classes all over the world teaching young men how to be a dad.

I am sorry you lost your mother and losing a parent isn't easy. But I would say very few guys have that close relationship to their dads as you do. And as a child, moms may be more important. Notice I said may be more important. But as teens, nothing can replace a teen guy having the relationship you had with your dad. When I read your story I thought I wish I had had a relationship like that with my dad when I was growing up.

You talk of some of the rough stuff. A teen is a teen and is going to act like a teen. Part of the time very responsible, but lapses in judgement from time to time. Sometimes it doesn't get better as an adult either. The few guys I have known that were "perfect" as teens had personal problems that bothered them then and later. The public didn't see it. But later on......all that was being hid inside surfaced somewhere in adulthood.

You last comment I would rephrase but it includes an important concept. No matter how noble a parent's moral code is, no matter how wonderful the parent may be, what matters is that the child has to adopt those charactistics as his own somewhere in childhood or adulthood. If they aren't adopted, then they mean nothing. So somewhere each person has to decide what kind of character he wants to have. And it can change anywhere in life. I have seen it happen.

Your dad wins Dad of the Year in my book. And the result is a wonderful young man that I would be proud to call son. Very proud.

Freddie

 

[B_UNKNOWN321]

Thanks to all of you contributors. I thought I would get nothing but "you silly milksop get a life and stop pretending to be interested in the travails of others". I now know that showing concern and some sort of support is what is needed when such a challenging situation is presented to you, not just merely the dropped jaw and teary eye. I feel for what some of you have been through and know it is a never ending struggle no matter how strong your resolve is to make the most of your life. I was struck by one thing that MZ said about a kind comment being remembered for so long after it is made. My wife and I made pact years ago since we knew that the wife almost always gets the entire burden of sympathy expression, greeting card writing, etc. so I agreed to do all the calling for berieved acquaintainces. Just recently my mother died and two women both wrote me notes to tell me how very much some comment meant to them when I called them 8 and 10 years ago when their mothers died. So MZ you are so right as always and you other kind hearted guys and gals also are a great bunch of 4-star human beings. Thanks. Tom

By the way I did not behave in quite the "who gives a shit" manner that I have suggested to the little boy. I went and found the owner and protested their not having more than a day care center for children so he and I were able to go to the boy and tell him that the gym indeed had bought the adjacent building where a children's workout center will be opened in three months. So I did not leave the little guy feeling the perfect shithead (though I approach that sobriquet quite often).

 

[madame_zora]

Motlissoff, I was much moved by a child like you described once at a friend's wedding. This little girl told me stories that curled my hair. She was there, fortunately with her Grandfather who had taken her out of her parent's home, but she had been through a lot. I let her talk most of the night, although it gave me nightmares for the next several years, my own daughter was much younger than her (7 at the time and my daughter was about 2). I never saw that girl again but I remembered her the next times I saw children who needed an adult in their lives, and I've tried to do what I can. I had a good mother, but I still recall with joy many of the things the neighborlady down the street would tell us girls when we went over to her house to work her horses. She slways had time for us and would talk to us about the grown-up stuff we were embarassed to ask our parents. She treated us like we were not stupid and told us factual information about sex. She still had us call her Mrs., but she was very much a friend. Sometimes that's an important thing to be.

 

[BruceSter]

I read your description of your dad. Man, what a parent. Your dad should be leading classes all over the world teaching young men how to be a dad.

I am sorry you lost your mother and losing a parent isn't easy. But I would say very few guys have that close relationship to their dads as you do. And as a child, moms may be more important. Notice I said may be more important. But as teens, nothing can replace a teen guy having the relationship you had with your dad. When I read your story I thought I wish I had had a relationship like that with my dad when I was growing up.

I think without that strong binding, I'd have been off the tracks easily. I also know that this is a rare kind of relationship we had, and I am glad we had it. Some things I never learned though, for example to keep my hands off other guys' girls - he never discouraged me to do that, and in retrospect, I think he appreciated it to some extent.

You talk of some of the rough stuff. A teen is a teen and is going to act like a teen. Part of the time very responsible, but lapses in judgement from time to time. Sometimes it doesn't get better as an adult either. The few guys I have known that were "perfect" as teens had personal problems that bothered them then and later. The public didn't see it. But later on......all that was being hid inside surfaced somewhere in adulthood.

If you're referring to Corrine in that paragraph, I guess I wasn't strong enough. "Not on the bright side of the white/black scale" may have been to weak an expression - she owned (and at times used) a false driver license and other forms of ID, was always the first in a brawl and toured bars with me when we still were under the legal age. I'd not call those things "lapses of judgement". I guess that happens when the reigns are held too loose.

Bruce

 

[solong]

In the old days, teachers were also parents. Students had the same teacher in elementary all day long and the focal point was to teach and raise the child, not raise test scores. Now first graders and sent from room to room and the teacher as a parent concept is gone. We are teaching subjects, not students in too many schools these days.

It takes a village. I have heard many testimonies from people who had horrible parents, but a very caring teacher, next door neighbor, aunt, uncle, grandparent, minister, person from the church, and the list goes on who stepped up to the plate and gave the child the adult mentoring they needed.

It is rare for an adult to really succeed unless there was some adult in their childhood who provided a mentor, someone to immulate, someone that mattered, someone that they wanted to prove themselves too.

How very true. However, none of that is done in the context of "village." If somebody ever waits on the village, they'll be waiting a damned long time. And then, you have to assume that only the kids who need help live in "villages." Villages like New York City don't seem too responsive, right?

It REALLY takes personal caring and responsibility to help kids who don't have decent parents. Well, anyway, Hillary had somebody else write her book for her. So, we'll blame the ghost writer, ok? Neither one of them knew what the hell they're talking about, as usual, but it "SOUNDS GOOD" until you delve into the principle. Then you see it's just more crap as usual.

 

[Freddie53]

How very true. However, none of that is done in the context of "village." If somebody ever waits on the village, they'll be waiting a damned long time. And then, you have to assume that only the kids who need help live in "villages." Villages like New York City don't seem too responsive, right?

It REALLY takes personal caring and responsibility to help kids who don't have decent parents. Well, anyway, Hillary had somebody else write her book for her. So, we'll blame the ghost writer, ok? Neither one of them knew what the hell they're talking about, as usual, but it "SOUNDS GOOD" until you delve into the principle. Then you see it's just more crap as usual.

I don't think Hillary or the ghost writer coined that phrase. Village here is a figurative word not a literal word. It refers to all the "important" people in the life of a child regardless where they live or when or how many "important" people the child has or had as the case may be.

I doubt very seriously that the "important" people in the lives of a child are crap. You quoted me here and Hillary was the farthest thing from my mind when I wrote it. Unless you can give me reasons why the parents, teachers, neighbors and other relatives aren't important in the development of a child I will consider your comments pure crap. Why do we have to make everything political? I realy don't care how much you hate Hillary and her politics. They are totally irrelevant to this post.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

As far as "alternative family configurations" go, like 3% of Americans actually live in the "traditional" nuclear family.

Goofed up families everywhere. Goofed up people everywhere. The human condition. Situation normal.

 

[Stroke Of Luck]

I realize that this thread is from quite some time ago, and certainly I can't add anything more relevant than what has previously been said - but one part of your post totally intrigues me! (of course, since it's me, it's totally shallow


What an interesting cotillion! .....a very progressive ball. Where I live, such complicated family situations would almost ensure that a potential deb not be invited to come out!

(please excuse the irrelevance to the original thread)