Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
Well- first of all- its not really clear that Bush WON... he was appointed by Supreme Court fiat over the most questionable election results in over one hundred years ( ever since Hayes )
But- YES Gore absolutely would have won had Nader not been in the race.
I don't have to get over it... We ALL have get over it because we ALL are still suffering with the legacy that Bush left us- because of Nader- a further 8 years of NO ACTION on climate change. A devastated economy and massive debts and massively increased government surveillance, 8 more years of the rich NOT being taxed and the SEC NOT doing their job... 8 more years of deregulation of trading in oil and energy... And Obama is not the war monger- he has NOT started any new wars. He gave requested assistance to Libya... and has simply tried to STEM the disastrous results of Bush's wholesale destruction of middle east stability.
Obama- unfortunately never got much of a chance to ENACT his progressive agenda- because his agenda was hijacked by the Crisis that the GOP left in their wake... and because he has been THWARTED for 6 years by GOP obstruction... and WHY?
Why because in 2010 the Progressives could not be bothered to get off their asses and VOTE- which handed the House to the GOP in a CENSUS year- allowing them to rig the districting for the next ten years' worth of elections.
And I don't mean to suggest that YOUR vote is the problem. I mean to suggest that your attitude, posted in the public square, has contributed to the ennui that many people feel over Hillary as a candidate and that will result in a LOT of folks voting for some useless third party doofus- ( and sorry- Whichever of them you voted for is demonstrably an ignoramus. One doesn't know that vaccines work... and the other doesn't know where Aleppo is- if you honestly feel either of them is more qualified then that calls your judgment into question... and if you did it as your own personal 'protest' vote- then that was pointless- he dems are NOT gonna count 3rd party votes to see where they went wrong- they are gonna rightly assume that the third party voters are simply too fringe to understand their own self interest )
-or worse- the folks who read and credit what you write about Hillary will be be SO uninspired to get off their lazy asses that they will opt NOT to vote. At All.
And so- even though YOU voted progressive on the down ballot- none of those folks who listened or were swayed by your rhetoric and decided not to bother are going to vote for the down ballot progressives.... are they?
And THAT is how progressive agendas FAIL.
Seriously- I have no beef with anyone walking into the voting booth and throwing THEIR vote away. And if someone is such an infantile asshole as to want to vote for Trump- at least they are voting for what they truly want- infantile assholism.
What I have a beef with is people who CLAIM to want progressive polices to be enacted into law- and then go around spreading lies- misinformation, or general canards about the ONLY candidate who might be able to actually DO that for them.
Because 'its all a racket'.
And THAT, my friend, is a GOP strategy to suppress the vote.
Getting folks like you to FEEL the way they do about the electoral process is HOW they win elections.
The narrative of Government being 'bad'- of everything being a 'racket'... or the idea that BOTH sides are exactly the same...
That ideology suppresses only the idealistic... which is the progressive vote- the GOP are ACTIVELY running a racket to get you to believe that both parties are equally corrupt.... And meanwhile the GOP whips up their voter turnout thru FEAR... appeals to racism and xenophobia. because fear motivates the ignorant to go out and vote.
And ennui demotivates the progressive to get out and vote.
So, sorry- but your believing such propaganda is just you being a tool of the right wing messaging machine.
25 years of trying to convince the electorate that Hillary is AS "crooked" as the GOP has repeatedly proven that they, themselves, are.
Because IF the ONLY power you really wield is the power to VOTE and persuade your fellow voters... then the one way for the oligarchs to ensure that their Racket CAN win control is to get the progressives to believe that voting makes no real difference.
Why do you think the rich LOVE the narrative of Government being "bad"? that it CAN'T do anything right? That you should trust the Profit motive to cure all ills?
Its because Democratic Government is the only thing that CAN stop them- but only when people understand that the government IS the people.
In the US- Thinking Government is incompetent is thinking yourself to be incompetent.
And thinking Government is rigged is YOU being rigged.
Me- i'm not as fatalistic as you. I look at history with a long view and I see the world becoming a more humane place.
we have marriage equality and transgender rights... and the EPA. We have Social Security and we have Obamacare.
We ARE making progress. The progressive agenda is winning. Slowly and Steadily, as it has since The Rights of Man.]
So if you feel its too rigged in the favor of the rich- which I would agree with- how are You and I gonna combat that?
Voting for someone who could NEVER do anything about it?
Or pushing a majority coalition further left to address it?
I know which Bernie would pick.
What we needed was not just your vote- we needed your VOICE- in support of the strategy that could have handed progressives total power in government and ended this obstructionist GOP reign in congress. We needed you and the thousands like you to be encouraging, and supportive and excited to vote for Hillary- to help convince everyone to get out there and vote the democratic ticket.
And in the next election cycle- push in the primary for the most progressive person running.
When we handed Obama both the house and Senate- Pelosi, in two short years, passed more legislation than any prior speaker.
And most of that was progressive.
And it was because people were excited to vote for Obama... and that carried thru to the downticket.
but Obama would never have been elected if half the Progressives were sniping and whining about his character or his dishonesty. And he certainly ouwld not have had a supermajority in the senate.
Back then the GOP WANTED the liberal candidate to be Hillary. Because they had invested decades in making her suspect in the minds of voter... but they had NOTHING on Obama.
No real record of failures or compromises he was forced to make. But today- you think he is a warmonger... and would not have voted for him no matter how progressive his platform.
So you voted for someone you know NOTHING about.
No record of accomplishment- or failure- because the failures are the thing you can not reconcile.
But everyone has failures. Bernie has them, too.
Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
That is certainly true... they did. But your reasoning is invalid. The thing about purged voters is there were no votes to be counted from them-
Your argument, therefore- is that it was votes that did not get cast that would have won it for Gore- but that is a spurious observation. You are essentially saying IF more folks had voted for Gore- he would have won- but they didn't.
That is- I agree with you...Gore would have won without the purge... but we can not say with any certainty how many of the purged voters would even have gotten out and voted much less who they would have voted for and in what numbers.
And, even today, The GOP is routinely purging voter roles wherever they have the power to do so.
However- Even with the purge of voters- which happens in every election- Gore would have definitely won had Nader Not been in the race- because Nader voters DID vote. 19,000 of them, and Nader Voters were demonstrably liberal progressives. Overwhelmingly more likely to vote democratic than Republican.
And it is perfectly reasonable to estimate that, had there NOT been a famous extra liberal third party candidate- that at least 60% of those voters WOULD HAVE voted for Gore... the Next best liberal choice...
And that would have handed the election to Gore REGARDLESS of the purged voter rolls.
Because the count came down to less than 600 votes- you can know that even if only half of the Nader voters had still voted without Nader on the ballot- and even if 40% of those had voted for Bush- Gore would still have won by 3,200 votes.
And- if the recount had been continued- it was pretty clear that Gore would likely have won as the recount was clearly showing MORE votes for him than for Bush.
So- sorry- but your theory that Nader wasn't the issue is provably wrong. He wasn't the ONLY issue... but he WAS the issue we can absolutely QUANTIFY in terms of the votes he cost.
Voter rolls get purged every election. That is a given. And Democrats have been almost as guilty as republicans of trying tp purge more of the votes that would go to the opposing party...
But we do not see nationally popular third party candidates every election. But when we DO- it is always the party who's coalition strength the third party candidate splits that loses.
Bill Clinton won election over HR Bush- partly because Conservatives split for Ross Perot.
And Gore lost because of Nader.
So stop telling yourselves fairy tales.
If you really want to PASS a progressive agenda- then back the COALITION that CAN win. And back it with enthusiasm.
Really and for true. Voting third party is worse than useless- it provably, statistically, undermines your own agenda.
Push the coalition that can win MORE toward your agenda with every primary- and with local and state elections at every opportunity.
But, guys- this COULD have been a progressive BLOWOUT- handing total power to the liberal agenda- Trump was THAT objectionable a candidate.
It COULD have been a referendum defeating obstructionism- and handed Hillary historic opportunities to shape the court because with a democratic congress she could have appointed seriously progressive judges.
This kind of opportunity to push a progressive agenda just doesn't come along very often- but the lack of excitement on the left because of 'progressive' complaining and third party idiocy will likely mean we just get 4 more years of obstruction and impeachment. Another fifty votes to overturn obamacare.
And if we get ANY new justices- They will have to be moderates, rather than progressives.
-I still hope we win at least one house. And several states.
Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
PS- the salient point being- DID voting for Nader get the Nader voters what they wanted?
Had they voted for Gore- and Gore won- would they have gotten MORE of what they wanted?
Ergo- Voting for Nader was voting AGAINST their own best interests, because their Voted, for Gore WOULD HAVE CHANGED THE OUTCOME in a manner closer to their ultimate objectives.
What the fuck has Nader done in the past 16 years? Gore has been championing the cause of addressing Climate Change.
Voting third party is a fundamental lack of comprehension of how power works in a democracy.
Had they voted for Gore- and Gore won- would they have gotten MORE of what they wanted?
Ergo- Voting for Nader was voting AGAINST their own best interests, because their Voted, for Gore WOULD HAVE CHANGED THE OUTCOME in a manner closer to their ultimate objectives.
What the fuck has Nader done in the past 16 years? Gore has been championing the cause of addressing Climate Change.
Voting third party is a fundamental lack of comprehension of how power works in a democracy.
Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
PS-
Read up on the "Monty Hall Problem" - for a little insight on how the inability to reason clearly affects people's understanding of odds and results and causes them to make losing bets.
The infamous 3 door problem is analogous to the third party problem in that people's beliefs in their own judgements often cause them to make statistically poor choices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem
Read up on the "Monty Hall Problem" - for a little insight on how the inability to reason clearly affects people's understanding of odds and results and causes them to make losing bets.
The infamous 3 door problem is analogous to the third party problem in that people's beliefs in their own judgements often cause them to make statistically poor choices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem
So what you're saying is vote for the status quo and then do the same shit you did when you voted for the last dude that could win, and the guy you voted for the time before that..so just vote fir the winner and act progressive all over again..hey, what the fuck..at least you're always voting for whoever can win..great strategy..cuz statistics matters..and if you always vote for the winner, then you are making the right choice,,
Oh by the way..check the results lately?
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Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
You can't seem to comprehend that not ALL elections offer the same opportunity for change.
Progressives came out BIG TIME for Obama... but mostly as a reaction to the devastation wrought by the GOP over the previous years.
But the result was BOTH houses going to the Dems- and the result of that was Sotomayor and Kagan on the court- healthcare reform- infrastructure spending- and a raft of lesser progressive bills being passed.
Then in the midterms- without some precious little figurehead to excite you progressives- you didn't bother to vote- and the result was the GOP taking back the house and EVERYTHING came to a stop.
Had the GOP been able to field a reasonable candidate this election would have been not much of a chance for significant change- Because the 2010 GOP win enabled them to RiG electoral districting in favor of the GOP.
But they picked Trump-
If you Bernie boosters had the intelligence BERNIE demonstrates- you could have thrown 100% of your support behind Hillary and the democratic party- gotten enough folks excited to vote to HAND the Dems BACK the senate and the house. But instead- you fell into line with GOP character assassination based on NOTHING.
So- yeah- this time- you won;t see much in the way of change... and WHY? BECAUSE you could;t get your dick hard over the possible massive win Trump's train wreck of a candidacy COULD have handed to the Dems.
So You COULD have had Pelosi back in control and progressive bills FLYING thru congress.
But you aren't gonna get that are you?
So your inability to back the coalition that's on YOUR SIDE is the reason that coalition will not win enough power to get done the things you want to see done.
That is YOUR fault- not the democratic party's and not Hillary's
Right now Clinton is losing florida by 150,000 votes.
Guess how many Votes Doofus Johnson bled off? 200,000.
You whine about a system that never goes anywhere- but that's because folks like you can't just pick the road that WILL get you where you want to go.
I'm not whining Jack!
Lol..call me names, blame me all ya want..but hey..looking at the results so far in some of these states back east..in some sates..10% voted for 3rd parties Liber/Green combined..10%!...Now I realize why that phony debate commission set the bar at 15%..
.so yeah..must be another reason besides the ones you spouting off about
Fuckin aye..This country is headin for I dunno what..but whomever comes out on top..whew buddy..the other half is in for a surprise
Lol..call me names, blame me all ya want..but hey..looking at the results so far in some of these states back east..in some sates..10% voted for 3rd parties Liber/Green combined..10%!...Now I realize why that phony debate commission set the bar at 15%..
.so yeah..must be another reason besides the ones you spouting off about
Fuckin aye..This country is headin for I dunno what..but whomever comes out on top..whew buddy..the other half is in for a surprise
OMG!!!! That would take me a week to read! Very interesting though.
I agree that vote purging happens routinely, it's a normal mundane part of maintaining the voter rolls. What Greg Palast uncovered was a hyper-on-steroids voter purging that wasn't routine at all but systematic and nefarious.
I didn't get a chance to vote for Jill Stein and I wouldn't have if I had the choice... NC was a swing state, so I felt obliged to vote for Hillary without any regrets... certainly not because I understand the Monty Hall Problem but just out of sheer respect for the power of the Trump campaign and the "angry white vote". I know how scary those fuckers are and wanted to lend my support against them.
I just personally never felt comfortable blaming third parties for election losses (even if they were to blame)... I mean Perot gave us Clinton I and II right? lolz!
Fuckin aye..the bafoon is 54 votes away..shhhhiiit
In CA, out on the left coast..Hillary has won CA's winner take all 55 votes
With 15% votes counted and 24 of the 58 counties reporting, Trump has the far northern rural, and some of the Central Valley, 8 counties..these are farmers, ranchers, etc..
Gary Johnson the libertarian won Tuolume County with over 63% so far.,Hillary got 1%..Greens got 3%, Trump, .4%
The Marijuana Producing counties of the northwest all went for Hillary also
In CA, out on the left coast..Hillary has won CA's winner take all 55 votes
With 15% votes counted and 24 of the 58 counties reporting, Trump has the far northern rural, and some of the Central Valley, 8 counties..these are farmers, ranchers, etc..
Gary Johnson the libertarian won Tuolume County with over 63% so far.,Hillary got 1%..Greens got 3%, Trump, .4%
The Marijuana Producing counties of the northwest all went for Hillary also
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Drifterwood
Superior Member
If the Democrats lose power in the White House it will be because the chose a candidate they rightly rejected eight years ago.
Phil Ayesho
Superior Member
Wow-
See what the fuck happens when imbeciles vote third party?
Third party dipshits threw Pennsylvania and Florida to Trump. That's pretty much the election.
Think the smug fucks who voted for Stein and Johnson are gonna be happy with President Trump? With Total GOP control of all three branches of government?
Kiss overturning Citizens united goodbye.
Kiss legal abortion goodbye
Kiss LGBT rights goodbye
Thanks to you third party promoting people...
Great job forwarding a progressive agenda.
See what the fuck happens when imbeciles vote third party?
Third party dipshits threw Pennsylvania and Florida to Trump. That's pretty much the election.
Think the smug fucks who voted for Stein and Johnson are gonna be happy with President Trump? With Total GOP control of all three branches of government?
Kiss overturning Citizens united goodbye.
Kiss legal abortion goodbye
Kiss LGBT rights goodbye
Thanks to you third party promoting people...
Great job forwarding a progressive agenda.
Drifterwood
Superior Member
Can you blame Progressives, Phil, for not believing that Hillary would deliver anything either, given her record and comments?
- b.c.,
A spot on observation and analysis of a poser (and those of like mind) who's spent all his time undermining Hillary Clinton, and the results of such short sighted folly. Let's see them get a progressive agenda out of Trump.
On several occasions I've suggested what he could go do. And, as we now see, that's PRECISELY what he's done.
Progressive? Time to roll out the time machine we are going back. Way back. Every single right we thought was permanent and here to stay will be rolled back. The Supreme Court is toast for another 20-30 years at least. All the women out there that hated Hillary get ready old men are about to regain control of your body. Marriage equality gone. ObamaCare gone. Union rights gone. Climate change gone. They're going to just line up the pins and knock em out. Boom. Boom. Boom.
- b.c.,
Well, from what I heard the guy who spoke of "grabbing them by the pussy" got a solid percentage of the white female Republican vote. So, apparently, not a problem.
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sargon 20. Hey guy, I need your home mailing address. I'm going to send you a box of Surgical Gloves.
I don't want you to get your hands all dirty while your helping Hillderbeast change her Depends.
Trump would help you but he'll be to busy putting America back together AGAIN.
If you had of heard Dons winners speech tonight, the things he said about Hillary. If he had of said that a week ago. He probably would have lost the election.
Seems he thinks a whole lot different of Hills now.
“Sorry to keep you waiting — complicated business,” he began. “I’ve just received a call from Secretary Clinton. She congratulated us on our victory, and I congratulated her and her family on a very hard-fought campaign. She fought very hard. Hillary has worked very long and very hard over a long period of time, and we owe her a major debt of gratitude for her service to our country.”
Dons just taking the reigns. He's yet to prove himself worthy of being a President. He respects those at least, (well I think he is being honest, hard to say), that have given much of their lives private as well, to the public and their country.
Look at it this way, Since your candidate lost, we won't have to push her to be more progressive now.. We can forget about her and her emails and foundation..
You're not sounding very Progressive Phil
You sound just like your fellow sycophants b.c. and Sargon..
Your ad hominem attacks reveal your primary colors..aligned with your candidates..oh the irony..making fun of her opponent's remarks about not accepting the election results.,and viola, no concession speech?
Nice..
Yep..this was historic!
The night that Data died..Scientific Polling FUBAR
The first time in almost 30 years a republican won Pennsylvania
Wow..That says more about your Democratic Party, than anything..
Oh by the way, 80-100 MILLION registered voters DIDN'T BOTHER TO VOTE