Fear of Fascism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Industrialsize, Sep 29, 2009.

  1. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    24,297
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2,168
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
  2. Bbucko

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2006
    Messages:
    7,413
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    58
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sunny SoFla
    And that was right on the heels of the competing "Value Voters" conference held earlier this month. This latest is organized by Phillis Schlafly, who has a troubled relationship with her own gay son. She's become something of a marginal figure over the last 10-15 years for good reason.

    I have faith that the larger American public still feel that blaming "teh gayz" for all their troubles is risible. This is an issue for the over-50 crowd, not young people, though it is intriguing how they share the "take back America" verbiage with the Teabaggers.

    For those with no memories, it started with "take back Vermont" after that state became the first to pass Domestic Partner legislation about 10 years ago. We all know how well that turned out :cool:
     
  3. TurkeyWithaSunburn

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    3,543
    Albums:
    5
    Likes Received:
    252
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Denver, Colorado
    Play to the base. Get them out there to the voting booth!!! Can't have them homosexuals going against GOD now can we?<sarcasm>

    Uhm what election year was it when gay marriage was all over the press etc. It made it seem like the most important issue. But in the list of issues voters at large thought was important, gay marriage was way down the list. Don't talk about what people really care about (at the time Iraq was the top concern), talk about what will bring out the core of the party.
     
  4. Phil Ayesho

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    5,592
    Likes Received:
    881
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Diego
    The more out there they get, the more they scare off anyone who ever actually thought Conservatives had something on the ball.

    This is exactly what the Whig party was doing right before they disappeared from the political landscape...
    Playing to an every smaller pool of fringe lunatics.
     
  5. mynameisnobody

    mynameisnobody New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CT, USA
    The Whig Party in the US fractured over the question of extension of slavery to the western territories ... at the time, not exactly a fringe issue. The anti-slavery fragment became the Republican Party; the pro-slavery fragment mainly joined the Democrats.

    Re the St. Louis confab, the link between the gay activist program and pro-fascist trends does seem weak. It's hard to tell from a single article just what spin the reporter is trying to put on the event. Fascism remains a problem; it lurks at the edges of all societies. The good news is that it's never taken real hold in the US. "The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe" (variously attributed to Jean-François Revel or Tom Wolfe); all well and fine, but we can't count on our luck holding out forever. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty; I can hardly fault the St Louis people for being vigilant.
     
    #5 mynameisnobody, Sep 29, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2009
  6. Phil Ayesho

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    5,592
    Likes Received:
    881
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Diego
    Actually... the Whig party became extremist in its views, and actively shouted down and drove out any whig who spoke moderately...

    Eventually, their platform and base was such a fractious minority of uncompromising fringe positioners, that they could not even field a national candidate, because not even THEY could agree on anyone being "Whig" enough.


    As to fascism... the closest we have some was during the Bush Administration, when the bill of rights was routinely disregarded and written over, when Corporations set national agendas, when leadership used fear mongering and appeals to faux patriotism to suppress the rights of the citizen and silence dissent. When the only images of leadership were in controlled circumstances with planted shills and pre-screened audiences of loyal acolytes. When mass arrests preceded political appearances, and when the US created internment camps, denied due process and engaged in torture to compel false testimony to support false information fed to the public. And when the rationale on which US foreign policy was predicated was the NeoCon notion that we should Use military might to have our way because no one could stop us.
    The Doctrine of "American Exceptionalism," is ideologically identical to the concept of the master race

    Haliburton was the Krupps of the NeoCon fascist movement.
     
  7. D_Masteur Baetes

    D_Masteur Baetes New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmmm.....I guess the Obama administration is strongly latching on to the ideas of fascistic regimes then, especially when you look at this stataement;

    "suppress the rights of the citizen and silence dissent. When the only images of leadership were in controlled circumstances with planted shills and pre-screened audiences of loyal acolytes."

    I looked up the actual definition of the word and came up with this;

    " a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

    I feel more strongly than ever that the Change we voted for is becoming a change to socialism and facism.
     
  8. WolvesInTheThroneRoom

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    323
    Albums:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    My eyes, like an animals, would see in the dark to
    I'm breaking a self-imposed rule about political postings, but here goes.
    Some fools on both fringes, right and left, do want their own fascism imposed, they want the other side silenced and the state controlled media pumping out their belief system, just like in Venezuela, Zimbabwe and North Korea.
    Those people are in the minority. On both sides. The millions who voted for Obama no more want any form of fascism imposed than do the millions who voted against him along with the independents who voted 3rd party or didn't vote and are now attending town hall meetings with the Republicans.
    There is no conspiracy among Democrats to destroy Christianity and indoctrinate children into accepting socialism and to force them to sing songs of praise about their nations leader, while selling out the nation to illegal immigrants and fundamental Islam. There is no agenda among Republicans to persecute gays and to forcibly impose their religions onto the masses, while making up reasons to attack other nations for oil.
    There are people on the fringe of the fringe of both sides who do in fact want those things- there are indeed anti-fed, anti-gay militia people, just like there are in fact bomb setting, self-avowed communists making films for young children.
    However these people make up less than 5% of either 'side'.
    Every Democrat and every Republican are routinely associated with these nut jobs by each other, each claiming the other wants to impose their own form of fascism.
    This watchdog mentality is healthy for the country, though on the personal level, like on these forums, it is often conspiratorial and obsessive, but it manifests itself on the national scale into involuntary self-policing. Which is good.
    I am 100% in favor of the war on terror and I am ALSO 100% in favor of anti-war marches and audits of why we are doing what we are doing. The two are not incompatible. I never believed in 9/11 conspiracy theories but was for any and every attempt to prove that it was and thus, the resulting studies to prove that it wasn't, we need these checks and balances.
    On one side you have ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC and NPR, with about half the country getting their news from them. Then you have FOX and the various conservative talk radio hosts on the other with roughly the other half the country getting their news from them.
    Many of the accusations by the 'left' side of the media house, that every one protesting Obama and his policies are all 'right-wing, racist militia folks' is simply untrue and defies reason. Some of the accusations from the 'right' side of the media house that Obama is intentionally trying to destroy the economy in order to fully impose his socialist agenda is outlandish.
    However both sides do have legitimate concerns.
    The appointments of people like Van Jones, Jeff Jones, Mark Lloyd and Cass Sunstein make even the average Democrat raise his eyebrows. Organizations like ACORN and the Tides foundation having access to tax payer funds and the appointment of 30 unvetted czars, many of whom would not get one senatorial democratic confirmation vote if they were to go through what is by constitutional law required of presidential cabinet members. These people would never get the security clearances required because of past criminal history.
    These concerns are real and legitimate and do not require one to be racist, religious, Republican, in a militia, nor ignorant.
    The network of religious fundamentalist groups who lobby Republicans and corporations to impose their puritanical view of the world are a real concern and to oppose them and call them out does not require one to be gay, a socialist or an anti-American.
    You can oppose these religious groups and still be 'conservative' or independent.
    You can oppose the FCC trying to shut down talk radio and still be a Democrat.
    You can support our military and the newly named 'overseas contingency plan' and still be a Democrat.
    These things are not mutually exclusive.
    The checks and balances forced onto the Bush administration for 8 years by the 'left' media bloc was healthy for the country. 90% of those involved did not want harm to come to our president, nor a defeat for this country. The concern for Bush's spending and the deficit, by the Democrats during this time, was echoed by many independents and real conservatives. Where is that concern now? You can still want fiscal responsibility and remain a Democrat.
    The checks and balances being forced onto the Obama administration by the 'right' bloc right now is also healthy. 90% of those involved are not 'racist' nor want any harm to come to anyone. They simply fear the same thing Democrats and liberals genuinely feared for 8 years- some manifestation of fascism and an eroding of our constitutional liberties.
    It is easier and lazy to believe that all who disagree with you are ignorant or want evil to happen.
     
  9. whatireallywant

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2007
    Messages:
    3,587
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Female
    Everyplace I've lived this has not been the fringe, but rather about 98% of the people I've known, unfortunately. Is it any wonder why I'm hesitant to talk about my political views? I'm one of those 'evil liberals' that everyone hates.
     
  10. Phil Ayesho

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    5,592
    Likes Received:
    881
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Diego
    What an idiot.
    Read that again, with perhaps a dictionary to help you thru the harder parts.
    Fascism is the CO-OPTING of nationalistic rhetoric for the PURPOSE of stifling dissent in support of autocratic rule.
    Obama is not stifling dissent.
    He is encouraging it.
    He has bent over backwards to try and offer republicans a voice that the voters actually took away from them.


    Everything Bush did was autocratic in nature. There was no bi-partisan overtures out of Bush. We were told what to fear and when, and the threat of being labled unpatriotic was a principal weapon...

    Also- one thing you can always count on Fascists to do... and that is to start wars of unprovoked aggression, because the leadership maintains power thru corporate hegemony... and WAR is the nationalistic means of funneling public moneys into the hands of corporate interests.

    And WHO took us into a 7 year war against a nation that had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11?


    Like all conservative chicken shits, you are always afraid of the wrong things...

    this time, you pathetic twerps are afraid of a Negro.

    Sad, really.
     
  11. Phil Ayesho

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    5,592
    Likes Received:
    881
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Diego
    Yeah... except you have to be oblivious not to notice that ONE of these two groups is allowing their FRINGE element to be their front men. Allowing their Fringe element to frame their agenda and to set their policies.


    And that puts the lie to the "moderation" of most conservatives... because as their party becomes more severely polarized, the more rational conservatives are being forced to leave the party if only for the sake of conscience, if not the fact that the party is falling down the rabbithole of insignificance

    Right now is a GREAT opportunity for a real third party to form... something with genuine conservative values that acts as conservatively skeptical toward corporate interests as they do over social agendas.

    I go not problem with the active role of skepticism in politics.

    What makes the right hypocrites is their lack of skepticism over the intentions and trustworthines of the rich.
     
  12. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Messages:
    10,576
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warwick, NY, USA
    Mike Huckabee gave a speech at this thing? I hope that Obama's people remember this in three years. Any respect I had for the man has just dropped to zero.

    This is what a lack of education gets us. The US lags behind the rest of the industrialized world in primary and secondary education and this is the result.
     
  13. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Messages:
    10,576
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warwick, NY, USA
    Think back to the Bush years please and recall how many speeches Bush gave in his second term where he was surrounded by military personnel; people who can be ordered to smile and clap on command for their boss. People who will not heckle him, people who will not ask him questions he doesn't want to hear.

    Then think of his previous public addresses, when he rarely gave them, and how protesters were herded into "free speech zones" so far away that they could neither be seen nor heard.

    Then think of his espousal of corporatism via deregulation and bailouts, support for the industrial-military complex, the erosion of civil rights under the Patriot Act, holding American citizens in prison without trial, and using illegal wire taps. Then also think of his courting of the major religious institutions in the country and the rich.

    Mussolini's three pillars of fascism: the church, the upper classes, and the corporations.

    Now tell me who is the fascist.
     
  14. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    11,912
    Likes Received:
    44
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City, by way of Marblehead, Boston and Ge
    I'm wondering if and where we could play Mix and Match with nouns, both proper and non-, like Republicans and conservatism.
     
  15. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    10,516
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Boston, MA / New York, NY
    You should have heard what Huckabee said: The Washington Independent Huckabee in St. Louis: Get America Out of the U.N. (Video)

    Apparently, he thinks the U.N is the equivalent of ACORN now. Wow.

    That's probably one of the most frustrating things of all.
    Part of me really wants me to believe that they just don't know. Because at that rate, we can at least call them uninformed (to put it nicely). However, I'm sure many of the people engaging in riling up people with misinformation & scare tactics know exactly what they're doing... and that makes it even more disgusting.
     
  16. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Messages:
    10,576
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warwick, NY, USA
    Odd and naive considering how the US has so much power in the UN.

    Is there anyone left in the GOP with any sense? They're all beginning to sound like a bunch of wingnuts.

    I like having the UN in New York. All those diplomats are a pain in the ass and they certainly have been this past week, but they also add a great deal to the culture of the city. Besides, chipping away that part of New York is stupid. That property is worth far too much.
     
  17. JTalbain

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,812
    Likes Received:
    5
    I have a lot of views which would label me a Republican, so here's some logic to represent our side:
    1) I agree the US has extraordinary power in the UN. We are a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, which gives us absolute veto power over any resolution the UN makes. The UN cannot hurt us.
    2) I similarly like the UN being here. It means we are the only country represented by it (possibly excepting Canada) which will NEVER have to worry about not having their representative within an easy travel distance, and thus we will never get left out of an important vote.
    3) I have enough sense to recognize that the lady who ran this rally has a faulty memory. We're promoting Hitler's agenda and gay rights? Hitler was tossing homosexuals into the gas chambers alongside the Jews.
    4) I voted mostly Republican on my ticket last election. One of the exceptions was Obama. I couldn't bring myself to vote for someone whose entire campaign was based on slandering his opponent and terrorizing people into siding with him. I voted against McCain to stop this kind of bullshit, and instead I see it continuing.

    Not all of us are prone to fear and idiocy, but I stand with you against those who are.
     
  18. Calboner

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    9,026
    Albums:
    5
    Likes Received:
    2,465
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    The part of the article that disturbed me most was not the account of the loony beliefs of the people at this conference but rather the list of actual, former, and would-be elected officers of the US government who participated:
     
Draft saved Draft deleted