Fed cuts key interest rates by 75 basis points

simcha

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I think this correction is good too, in the long run - but the reality is the prices haven't gone down all that much Simcha. There are just less houses on the market which are keeping the prices steady especially among the homes costing over $1 million.

Although it may seem like the sky is falling on the real estate market with a 12.5% drop certain areas are getting hit worse than others and I'd say the prices haven't changed any in the desirable places to live in the region - regardless, if you put it in perspective, -12.5% is quite a small blip considering real estate values in the Bay Area have almost tripled (increased 300%) since the 80's here.

It is hard to foresee home prices dropping drastically since home prices are linked to wage rates. And I don't see a major downturn in the tech or pharmaceutical industry in the Bay Area. If anything it is expanding, along with an infrastructure and culture to foster new innovative industries and growth.

It's hard to see but it's happening and it will continue until at least 2010 here. The data support this if you know what to look for.

What I do seeing is the elimination of the middle class in the area, especially in places like San Francisco or Los Gatos where it is no longer possible to buy a house and live earning less than $130K per year (annual income needed to afford a median priced home). So in order to be considered middle class now you need to make between $150K and $220K to purchase an average house and afford all your expenses. You are priced out of the market unless you are one of the highly overpaid professionals who make more than 5 times the average salary of the region.

It is the Manhattanization of the region where only the wealthy can even consider living here. The real middle class that remains only can do so because they bought their homes before their home values increased 300% since the 80's. Most wouldn't be able to move and live here now with the incomes they make. Only one in ten homeowners now have the income to qualify for a loan for their house. So many middle class folks, young people, and those struggling financially have left the area for places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Sacramento, Portland, Seattle, Reno to buy a house and make ends meet.

Yes, the elimination of the middle class is almost complete here. The problem with this is that no economic region can make it without the workers in the middle class. Someone has to actually do the work that others in the high tech 130k+ class won't do. You know, there need to be cooks, waiters, parking attendants, fire fighters, police officers, social workers, teachers, gardners, librarians, cashiers, etc. in order to service that techie 130k+ class otherwise the region's economy will collapse.

So, what we have is the working poor and the highly paid techie class here. There is very little in-between. I'm clearly in the working poor class here in the BA. It's disgusting. However, even back in Chicago I'd be working poor. The rich don't believe in paying workers a decent living wage or salary for an honest day's work anymore. They don't realize that they are destroying the economy that made them rich in the first place. If you have no consumer/workers to buy your services and goods, you have no income. No income, no profit. I don't care how high-tech the economy gets. You will always need consumers and workers.

So all the real estate values are skewed and the market is primarily for these wealthy folks who make over $130K or more a year annually. And suprisingly there are plenty of folks here that do earn that which keeps the real estate prices artificially high and unrealistic for most people even living here - it is the perfect example of the growing income disparity between the rich and poor, the haves and the have nots and the erosion of a middle class. No where is it more pronounced than in San Francisco these days walking in the Filmore or Union Street. Hell, even rents are exorbantly high - $1300-$1800 for a one bedroom place not in a ghetto. How does a middle income person even afford that?

Well, I pay $875 for a one bedroom in a nice neighborhood in Oakland. Of course, I've lived in the same building for over 5 years and we have rent control in Oakland. And, I do see that here in the East Bay that you can get nice one bedrooms for $950-$1100 in non-ghetto areas. Rents are actually starting to go down because people are leaving the area because of the jobs leaving and the prices being too high to sustain a decent lifestyle. So even as people start to foreclose on houses in the area, many of these people are leaving permenantly. Thus, there is downward pressure on rents and real estate prices.

It is happening here too. Look at Florida. That's what we have in store for us here in the BA.
 

simcha

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If you don't save 10% of your income, you're fucked. If you live in high cost areas like Manhattan or San Francisco or Florida, and its too expensive, move. Do whatever you can to increase the amount of discretionary income you have. You may have to move. $75000/year in Florida or the Bay Area or NY sounds like near poverty given the cost of living. $75000 in Michigan or Iowa, or Ohio and you are flush with cash. You could own a house, a boat, 2 cars, and a cabin on a lake. Iowa is a great place to live.

Always move to where your money goes further. Life is so much easier that way. Living paycheck to paycheck is dangerous.

OK, who wants to live in most of Michigan or Iowa? I'm a Midwesterner and I've lived in Iowa and I've been to Michigan many times. I'm a city guy. Parts of Iowa are nice. But they are higher priced than other places. The same thing goes for Michigan.

Also, there are no jobs to support high skilled workers like myself in Iowa or Michigan where the economy is bust. So, it doesn't matter how cheap it is to live there if you don't have any income.

It's expensive to move folks. Those of us in the working poor class who live paycheck to paycheck cannot afford to move across country anymore. I know I can't. I'm not exactly stuck, because I could get help from family. But, also I don't want to live in areas where my conservative, fundamentalist Christian, family members live. So, for me my quality of life is actually better even though materially I don't have as many "things" as those who have established themselves in other parts of the country. I don't particularly care about being rich. If I can get by and have friends, I'm good. Also, if I can have a career where I can help others get a leg up I'm good. I have that here in Oakland. Yeah, I would have lower costs if I were to live in Iowa or Michigan. But, if I found a job, I'd be making less than what I made here. I've checked it out. So, less income and lower expenses leaves me at about the same place financially.

All across this country the corporate elite refuse to pay people who actually generate the income for the corporation anything like living wages. That's why many of these jobs have moved or are moving to China or India. They can pay next to nothing for those people to do many of the same skilled jobs that Americans were doing.... That creates downward pressure on salaries here stateside because we the workers have to compete with India and China where labor is very cheap. The corporate elite don't seem to care that they are destroying the economy in their own country where they must live and work. The days of reckoning are here. They'll be paying the price with the rest of us...
 

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The problem with living in Michigan and that region in general is the unemployment level. The Big 3 automakers in America are downsizing. Here's a website I use to see the real estate valuation game at the end consumer level:

"http://www.housingtracker.net/"

It is what it is. But the monthly chart for Detroit, MI is no better than it is anywhere else USA. They had the same inflationary prices on homes too that have plummeted over the past year or so as the real estate market cooled down.

"http://www.housingtracker.net/askingprices/Michigan/Detroit-Warren-Livonia/"

Consider that a $ 175 to 134K drop is $ 41K, that's a 23.5 % drop for the median home price. In Miami, the drop was from $ 380 to $ 300K, effectively 21.1 %.

"http://www.housingtracker.net/askingprices/Florida/Miami-FortLauderdale-MiamiBeach/"
 

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OK, who wants to live in most of Michigan or Iowa? I'm a Midwesterner and I've lived in Iowa and I've been to Michigan many times. I'm a city guy. Parts of Iowa are nice. But they are higher priced than other places. The same thing goes for Michigan.

Also, there are no jobs to support high skilled workers like myself in Iowa or Michigan where the economy is bust. So, it doesn't matter how cheap it is to live there if you don't have any income.

It's expensive to move folks. Those of us in the working poor class who live paycheck to paycheck cannot afford to move across country anymore. I know I can't. I'm not exactly stuck, because I could get help from family. But, also I don't want to live in areas where my conservative, fundamentalist Christian, family members live. So, for me my quality of life is actually better even though materially I don't have as many "things" as those who have established themselves in other parts of the country. I don't particularly care about being rich. If I can get by and have friends, I'm good. Also, if I can have a career where I can help others get a leg up I'm good. I have that here in Oakland. Yeah, I would have lower costs if I were to live in Iowa or Michigan. But, if I found a job, I'd be making less than what I made here. I've checked it out. So, less income and lower expenses leaves me at about the same place financially.

All across this country the corporate elite refuse to pay people who actually generate the income for the corporation anything like living wages. That's why many of these jobs have moved or are moving to China or India. They can pay next to nothing for those people to do many of the same skilled jobs that Americans were doing.... That creates downward pressure on salaries here stateside because we the workers have to compete with India and China where labor is very cheap. The corporate elite don't seem to care that they are destroying the economy in their own country where they must live and work. The days of reckoning are here. They'll be paying the price with the rest of us...

Well put !
 

SpeedoGuy

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It would be interesting to see what fraction of the refund recipients invested or saved the money rather than just spent it willy-nilly (as the unspoken expectation behind the whole idea of refunds seems to be).
 

SpeedoGuy

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Sadly, I don't think they'll have much effect on the hoi polloi of this great land.

I'm not hopeful about the effect either. Why? Because the value of saving and impulse control is so unapparent that reminders must be delivered to adults with slapstick gags featuring animal costumes. Talk about dumbing down education.
 

Mem

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Did anyone see the problem of foreclosures on 60 minutes. I think they mentioned Stockton CA. In my area you don't see that many foreclosures or for sale signs and out property taxes are just about the highest in the nation.

People are not smart enough to avoid the below prime scams.
 

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OK, who wants to live in most of Michigan or Iowa? I'm a Midwesterner and I've lived in Iowa and I've been to Michigan many times. I'm a city guy. Parts of Iowa are nice. But they are higher priced than other places. The same thing goes for Michigan.

Also, there are no jobs to support high skilled workers like myself in Iowa or Michigan where the economy is bust. So, it doesn't matter how cheap it is to live there if you don't have any income.

It's expensive to move folks. Those of us in the working poor class who live paycheck to paycheck cannot afford to move across country anymore. I know I can't. I'm not exactly stuck, because I could get help from family. But, also I don't want to live in areas where my conservative, fundamentalist Christian, family members live. So, for me my quality of life is actually better even though materially I don't have as many "things" as those who have established themselves in other parts of the country. I don't particularly care about being rich. If I can get by and have friends, I'm good. Also, if I can have a career where I can help others get a leg up I'm good. I have that here in Oakland. Yeah, I would have lower costs if I were to live in Iowa or Michigan. But, if I found a job, I'd be making less than what I made here. I've checked it out. So, less income and lower expenses leaves me at about the same place financially.

All across this country the corporate elite refuse to pay people who actually generate the income for the corporation anything like living wages. That's why many of these jobs have moved or are moving to China or India. They can pay next to nothing for those people to do many of the same skilled jobs that Americans were doing.... That creates downward pressure on salaries here stateside because we the workers have to compete with India and China where labor is very cheap. The corporate elite don't seem to care that they are destroying the economy in their own country where they must live and work. The days of reckoning are here. They'll be paying the price with the rest of us...

Very good! My thoughts exactly...
 

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It would be interesting to see what fraction of the refund recipients invested or saved the money rather than just spent it willy-nilly (as the unspoken expectation behind the whole idea of refunds seems to be).

The 2001 rebates were sold and packaged by Bush as that. It'll be interesting if the consumables sector of the economy stays the course and doesn't inflate the prices on those items we consume on an everyday basis. Part of the intent is for this economic bolster is to use that money to kick back into the real estate fiasco. I don't know how far anyone expects $ 600-1,200 to go ? If you're looking for relief from a mortgage or property taxes the rebate doesn't go very far. Come to think of it, it's not even a month's rent for an apartment in a lot of places. Guess it's better than nothing. But again, the solution is fix the unrealistically & unaffordable housing situation.
 

SpeedoGuy

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But again, the solution is fix the unrealistically & unaffordable housing situation.

A good point. However, housing prices, at least in major urban areas, have risen so much faster than wages and inflation that I just don't know what the fix would be. I suspect there is no fix, in truth. The reality will be that many urban Americans simply have to downsize their expectations of what constitutes acceptable living space and learn to make do habitating in small, crowded apartments like the Japanese.
 

Quite Irate

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Economic crashes and secondary markets go hand in hand. Insiders (and me, 'cause I know shit) knew exactly what was going to happen. Nobody listens, though. This particular crash was very well orchestrated.
I may not seem like much on these forums (fora, if you're particular), but there's a reason I'm already out of school with an economics degree at my age.
 

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A good point. However, housing prices, at least in major urban areas, have risen so much faster than wages and inflation that I just don't know what the fix would be. I suspect there is no fix, in truth. The reality will be that many urban Americans simply have to downsize their expectations of what constitutes acceptable living space and learn to make do habitating in small, crowded apartments like the Japanese.

Yep, we can all ride the train out to work at a collective farm, or factory, and then ride it back to our little communal apartment...
 

transformer_99

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Economic crashes and secondary markets go hand in hand. Insiders (and me, 'cause I know shit) knew exactly what was going to happen. Nobody listens, though. This particular crash was very well orchestrated.
I may not seem like much on these forums (fora, if you're particular), but there's a reason I'm already out of school with an economics degree at my age.

I knew we were heading for this the moment Bush started running for the Presidency. If he got in we were pretty much in for the same nonsense his father had from 89-92. Look at Bush's selections for appointees, they were all Reagan's and his Dad's appointees. Cheney and Rumsfeld were a recipe for war, it's all they do and have been involved in for the better part of their careers. It's like an NFL team with the first draft pick and they take the best cfb rb. It's a good bet they're going to run the ball a lot in the upcoming season. Likewise, Bush brings in Cheney, Rumsfeld, & Powell. Is it any wonder they spent the first 9 months looking for a fight. Well, they got it too. Bush bombed Iraq 3 weeks after getting in the White House, shortly after that, there was an incident with Japanese fishing boats, then the Chinese fighter/US spy plane incident. And let's not forget the "axis of evil". Yep, he was looking for anyone to knock the chip from his shoulder.

The mortgage bailout, I liken this to perhaps the equivalent of the S&L scandal of the mid to late 80's. Bush was in on that too with Silverado S&L.

Anyway, we are where we are and I certainly hope that if a 3rd Bush runs for office, the one's that voted for the other 2 figure out a 3rd Bush regime simply would ruin America. See under Clinton, housing was more affordable, inflation simply left incomes behind like a jet leaves a crop duster behind.
 

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think it is far too oversimplistic to blame Bush. Isn't the Fed supposed to be independent of Govt of is that just bank of England? Anyhoo, helicopter Bill will sort it out and squeeze the credit bubble into some other sector of the market