Feminine Body Image and Self Esteem

viking1

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Exactly, JustAsking. The environment we grow up in has far more impact than anybody wants to admit. By the time we realize this, it's already happened and we are molded into our adult selves. It's very hard if not impossible change after that.
 

earllogjam

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Kshelby, thank you for sharing and putting yourself out there. It takes a lot of courage and I respect you for that. I'm glad that your journey of self discovery is bringing you strength and character. It's nice to see.

I have witnessed this phenomenon of cousins and neices changing personalities in their middle school years. Happy kids becoming withdrawn and shy only to perk back up at the end of high school and college. I think middle school is rough on most kids because it is a time to conform, grow up, become more self conscious. All those societal pressures of the adult world start to sink in during this time. Sexual attraction hits and what others think of you becomes very important for one's self worth. The gravity of being physically attractive is great. It is no coincidence that the popular or "in" girls at school also always happen to be the prettiest. I don't know what the answer is but I know this dynamic and the emphasis of beauty over substance is not going away anytime soon. Maybe we can just make it less important.

I noticed my nieces and cousins who were athletes never went thru this cycle of middle school body image depression because I think they all realized it was bullshit. Sports gave them confidence, better body self awareness and the understanding that there were other things in life that were more interesting than being consumed with what you looked like. I have found that being body conscious and taking care of my body is key to my mental well being and outlook in life, regardless of what I look like to others. My body feels bad, I feel bad. My body feels good, I feel good, and I have a better self image. Phys Ed. is sadly being cut in many schools in this time of epidemic kid obesity. The nieces that did suffer depression during this time all had bad relationships with their bodies. They never treasured their body or never were taught to treasure it. The body holds a lot of clues to what is mentally happening to a person I have found. Depression can be read in the body, and it's movement. It is probably because there is no such thing as a mind/body dichotomy. That is just a philosophical construct. As your body image improves you are less likely to buy into all that nonsense of what the people trying to sell you things would have you believe about beauty.
 

B_Kshelby67

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thank you so much everyone for your kind words. I really have to say though, that I do not deserve it , it does not take a special person to treat myself the way I did. People go through so much worse than I did, and triumph in life, and do not fall victim to whatever mental disorder might come out of it. I was a very weak person, and I continued the abuse inflicted by others on my own body. I may have overcome the actions of restriction and purging, but I have to deal with the consequenses for the rest of my life. My whole internal system is fucked, I have to take a lot of medication, I have to have several procedures done the rest of my life to take care of the pre-cancerous growths on my esophagus. I destroyed myself to try to gain an outside acceptance that I could only get from myself. Something like that, even if it is in the past, should not be admired.
 

modernluv

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I have some unusual opinions on this issue. Personally I think a lot of the problem comes from over-protective parents, especially fathers. I also think it comes from other women's attitudes and the overall female culture. As for overprotective fathers, "daddy's little girls" who need to be shielded from everything including boys, grow up thinking they can't take care of themselves. They learn they need a man to do that and when there's that much pressure to be attractive (because you can't LIVE w/o a man), then you get eating disorders and everything.
As for female culture, girls start being sexual objects when they hig puberty. Personally I think men get too much of the crap for objectifying women, and women don't get enough blame. If a woman walks into a room, the other women are going to be the ones judging her on how she looks, a LOT more critically than the guys. Guys will notice if she's hot or not but women are the ones who evaluate, get jealous and petty, talk behind their backs, and ostricize based on how well she measures up in the looks, fashion and style dept.
So I guess what I think in general is when we hit about 14 a lot of us start thinking "I'm nothing if I'm not pretty, I need to be pretty to get a man, and I can't live my life without one." It's a recipe for low self-esteem and eating disorders.

I have read that girls have the exact same accelerating self esteem as children as do boys and then when they hit middle school, their self esteem falls plummets like a stone, mainly related to their body image. Eating disorders start in middle school.

Their self esteem starts to climb back up as they work thru high school but it rarely gets back to where it was as a child. Apparently boys don't have this issue as much although that is changing.

Curiously I have read tht girls get their self esteem from their fathers image of them to a great degree.

I am sure this is different for a lot of women but does this ring true to you ladies here? And is any of your self esteem connected to body image for you?
 

B_Kshelby67

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As for overprotective fathers, "daddy's little girls" who need to be shielded from everything including boys, grow up thinking they can't take care of themselves. They learn they need a man to do that and when there's that much pressure to be attractive (because you can't LIVE w/o a man), then you get eating disorders and everything.

So I guess what I think in general is when we hit about 14 a lot of us start thinking "I'm nothing if I'm not pretty, I need to be pretty to get a man, and I can't live my life without one." It's a recipe for low self-esteem and eating disorders.

OK. Taking my own self as an example, as well as knowing people with eating disorders all over the world (from recovery programs as well as livejournal), I can tell you not one of those girls do any of this to get a guy. Not one. In fact, several starve themselves specifically to be unattractive and to deny themselves that very entry into puberty (occurs a lot in cases of sexual abuse). So, sorry, maybe a couple want to get skinny to be the pretty girl, but that is a very low percentage. There is so much more to EDs than what it looks like on the surface.
 

JustAsking

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thank you so much everyone for your kind words. I really have to say though, that I do not deserve it , it does not take a special person to treat myself the way I did. People go through so much worse than I did, and triumph in life, and do not fall victim to whatever mental disorder might come out of it. I was a very weak person, and I continued the abuse inflicted by others on my own body. I may have overcome the actions of restriction and purging, but I have to deal with the consequenses for the rest of my life. My whole internal system is fucked, I have to take a lot of medication, I have to have several procedures done the rest of my life to take care of the pre-cancerous growths on my esophagus. I destroyed myself to try to gain an outside acceptance that I could only get from myself. Something like that, even if it is in the past, should not be admired.
KShelby,
Yes, some people go through hell and seem to come out ok. But I am sure that you have gone through things and faced personal demons that most people will never face or ever have the courage to face. Don't overlook that in your own struggle. You don't have to admire what you did in the past and I won't glorify it either. But coming out of stuff like that and regaining your life now is heroic, in my opinion.

...There is so much more to EDs than what it looks like on the surface.
Yes, thats for sure. I have a dear friend who is bulimic among other things, through trying to get her to get some help, I came to know how complex it is. Its the most complicated thing I have ever seen (and I majored in Physics in college). People make all kinds of general statements about it, without realizing that it is a twisty labyrinth of contradictions.
 

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Peel back the layers of that seemingly perfect teenage girl overachiever in school (straight As, accomplished musician, star athlete, very popular, etc) and you will find a hollow vaccum of self-esteem and someone who falls asleep each night crying in the fetal position.

This was me. In some ways, this still is me. From then even into now, I try hard to project an image of happy, stable, independent, free-thinking woman, and the truth is, I have been riddled with self worth issues my entire life. Thinking about it now, I'm even critical of my ability to hide my worthlessness from everyone. How can anyone not see through this crumbling facade?

Fortunately, I realize how insane thinking like that is, and I try to realize it for what it is and recognize where it came from. My father was a very cold, difficult man who was incredibly critical of my mother, brother, and me. He would constantly praise me to everyone he knew, but he could never say it to me. For a long time I thought that I was just a trophy kid he could brag about, but now I know that he really did the best he could and did some really good things for me along with the bad.

Tied into this, my body image is terrible and always has been. I was premature which my mother and grandmother treated with more and more food-- to the point where I was a very fat baby. I was fat all the way up until about 6th grade, was very isolated from my peers, and endured all the teasing and ridicule. Then my mom started Weight Watchers and I started following her plan and I lost a lot of weight. At the same time, I grew a good few inches. I was about 5'5 and weighed 91 pounds by the end of that summer. I see photos of myself now and I looked positively skeletal, sickly. I can remember looking in the mirror at that time still thinking I was fat because I could pinch skin on my stomach. I was 12.

In high school I constantly though I was fat and dieted and was terrified of gaining weight. I grew into a more normal weight but persisted in feeling like a fat slob all through high school. In college, I was 5'9", 130-140 pounds, and a size 10 dress size. I constantly had boys I was dating say that I was not thin enough. One guy referred to me as "thick" while another said he preferred women to be "willowy." I really don't know what the hell they meant except maybe that I am very tall and broad-shouldered. Then, I thought they were right, that I needed to be 120 pounds. Now, I think that was probably a bit ridiculous.

Sometime in my early 20s I quit smoking and stopped taking Wellbutrin (both of which act as appetite suppressants for me) and I gained about 50 pounds in less than a year. It just piled on and I couldn't understand what was happening. I lost some weight when I got married and gained some of it back, but generally I stayed in a holding pattern until I got pregnant. The funny thing is, this time in my life was when I was most comfortable with my body. To me, the reasons for that was because my husband was (and is) very supportive and loved my body, I was doing work that I truly loved, I had a lot of friends, and I felt more successful and happier than I had my whole life. I really think my husband helped get rid of a lot of the damage that my father did by being unfailingly supportive and positive.

Between being pregnant, having a newborn, having worsening sleep apnea, and changing medications for my various medical problems, I gained a lot, and I mean a lot, of weight. At my heaviest I was 240 pounds or so. I physically, mentally, and emotionally felt disgusting and disguasted by my weight. Last November I decided to do something about it. So far, I've lost more than 50 pounds-- I'm somewhere between 180-185 now. I still have about 35 pounds to go. It's not easy, and I still feel fat, though I do see how well I've really done.

However, I wonder, even if I do get to my goal (150 pounds), will it ever be enough? I have always had problems with my weight and my body image, and it's never been all that positive. At some point, I have to be able to say that I'm happy with myself, and that's the hard part. No BMI chart or other person can convince me that I'm attractive unless I'm ready to believe it myself. And that is tied intimately with my general sense of self worth. Truthfully, I need to be working on that as much as I'm working on my body.

At any rate, this is the reason that I get so bent out of shape here sometimes with the sort of "no fat chix" attitude. I've heard it my entire life and have internalized it, and I'm trying a little to deprogram myself.

Young girls sometimes get mixed signals which adds to the problem. Many men tell us they like the natural look, then we see women like Pamela Anderson glorified in the media and airbrushed/photoshopped women in magazines. What are we supposed to believe? Don't get me wrong. If a woman wants to make cosmetic changes for herself, that's great. If she's doing it because she feels pressured to look a certain way, that's a result of an underlying issue.

she's a very healthy 130 lbs at 5'5", curvy, not fat at all
This made me think about two things. The first is that words like curvy, voluptuous, etc. have turned into euphemisms for anywhere overweight to morbidly obese. There truly are women whose bodies are curvy and voluptuous but are well within normal and healthy weight ranges. That misuse of descriptive words is either a cause or an effect of the fact that all young women (and young men!) see on TV and in magazines are very skinny women with big fake tits and a good bit of manipulation in Photoshop. There is no room in our society for beautiful women with a BMI higher than, say, 19. It's all or nothing. Or at least, that's how it feels.

Imagine the 4 year old boy who has strong visual-spatial skills but is still behind or weak in linguistic skills. He sits on the floor building bridges and mountains out of tupperware containers and hardly ever speaks.

Totally unrelated, but this reminds me of my son-- and how our culture has become obsessed with standards including but not limited to body image and weight. Raising a child I've been seeing that there are more and things that kids have to do/be at earlier ages or else they are abnormal. In my opinion, we're becoming a very black-and-white society where quantitative standards are more important than the more qualitative things that aren't measurable. This includes body image.

I have some unusual opinions on this issue. Personally I think a lot of the problem comes from over-protective parents, especially fathers. I also think it comes from other women's attitudes and the overall female culture. As for overprotective fathers, "daddy's little girls" who need to be shielded from everything including boys, grow up thinking they can't take care of themselves.

Actually stable, "overprotective" fathers tend to raise the most successful female children unless the "overprotective" is that controlling/abusive type. Women that seek out father figures as they get older tend to be the ones that had distant, abusive, or non-present fathers. "Daddy's little girls" do pretty well for themselves if, like I said, Daddy is a warm, loving father.


***I'm sorry I wrote such a giant novel. At least I was polite enough to separate it into paragraphs, right??***
 

B_Think_Kink

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OK. Taking my own self as an example, as well as knowing people with eating disorders all over the world (from recovery programs as well as livejournal), I can tell you not one of those girls do any of this to get a guy. Not one. In fact, several starve themselves specifically to be unattractive and to deny themselves that very entry into puberty (occurs a lot in cases of sexual abuse). So, sorry, maybe a couple want to get skinny to be the pretty girl, but that is a very low percentage. There is so much more to EDs than what it looks like on the surface.
I did and didn't at the same time... it was an abuse case, and I wanted him to pay more attention to me (aka abuse me more) cause that is what I needed.. was the attention, positive or negative at least I was getting attention.
 

Love-it

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At the heart of it is what you already said about women getting their self esteem from their father's image of them. But that is not exclusive to body image. In fact, the most important thing these girls seemed to need was for their fathers to be proud of them and see them as consequential and valuable human beings. At their most suicidal, I remember more than one girl saying "I just want him to be proud of me.".

It was heart wrenching to hear this and realize that most fathers think that raising daughters is the mother's concern. Studies show that a father who is merely emotionaly distant and emotionally unavailable to a daughter can lead to things like eating disorders.

My wife at age 59 is still dealing with the issues of being the second daughter when a son was expected and desired, her father was distant and her mother was not supportive or a good role model, a bad way to grow up. She was not suicidal or had eating disorders, she was a tomboy and tried to impress her parents, she is a great skier and that is the only real connection that she had with her father. Because of her dyslexia she didn't excel in school and therefore could not meet her parents expectations of a professional role in society, she was and still is a failure in her parents eyes and in her own. She lives with this every day.

While she can recognize the onset of depression more readily and deal with it in weeks instead of months, it is still there on a daily basis.

If her father had given her one compliment, a hug or recognized her for who she is and valued her as a person my wife would have been a much happier person.
 

D_Sherian_LaNeige

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This made me think about two things. The first is that words like curvy, voluptuous, etc. have turned into euphemisms for anywhere overweight to morbidly obese. There truly are women whose bodies are curvy and voluptuous but are well within normal and healthy weight ranges. That misuse of descriptive words is either a cause or an effect of the fact that all young women (and young men!) see on TV and in magazines are very skinny women with big fake tits and a good bit of manipulation in Photoshop. There is no room in our society for beautiful women with a BMI higher than, say, 19. It's all or nothing. Or at least, that's how it feels.

Yes, it certainly does. It's only recently that I've learned to take being called "thick" (not something that happened before I put myself online and met Americans, hehe), and "curvy" as a good thing.

I'm a bit new and it might not be my place, but I'd like to initiate a group hug for the ladies. ::::group hugs::::

And thank you for that wonderful reply, JustAsking. Made me well up a bit, but in a good way.
 

seterwind

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I would like to say something, rather type, but I am lacking the words. So to put them aside and type the emotions, see how it comes out.

I would personally like to hug Think, Kshelby, Snoozan, Instictual, and all the other gals who have gone through this. I never envy women for what they go through when growing up. Having 2 sisters myself, I got to see alot of hardship. My mother and father though were great parents, so never did I see it to the level you've described. But fair to say I had seen a lot.

Myself, I have my own esteem issues, what braught me here in the first place but to digress, I would like to thank you all. Thank you for in this thread alone you have shown me courage and hope. I just want to try and express that, that you've really helped me (though I'm a guy), that wounds heal... thats not right words but geh best my mind is doing right now. My wife suffers from esteem issues as well, and a few others and I think now reading this and maybe even having her read it over, we'll be able to work through an issue that has recently arrisen.


Lastly I would like to say, that you are all beautiful (those whose pictures I've seen). Not just to be nice because I am typically a critcal person, but you are all absolutly gorgeous. I think I'll become a gold member just so I don't have to stare at thumbnails any more.

Sorry to have intruded on a women topic, and for lacking the proper words to express my thoughts clearly, and the crude ending paragraph.
 

SassySpy

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I've been back again and again to this thread, each time thinking to post and each time finding yet another member who has endured similar backgrounds to my own, and as can be seen, to each other's as well.
All of you have shared so much, so openly and honestly, and your courage is not only commendable, but part of the healing.
I also had a less than nurturing relationship with my father- and numerous stepfathers. I eventually learned it was because of the initial "abandonment" (thru divorce) of my natural father, and subsequent 'abandonments' by stepfathers, that I developed so many of the same problems and behaviours mentioned in this thread. Years of sexual abuse by a step-grandfather played a major contributing role as well.
Kshelby, I saw me all over again when i read your post. When I was going thru my anorexic phase, I was at the gym 2x a day 6 days a week, didnt weigh 80 pounds, wore size 00 jeans, and thought I was still too fat.
Perfectionism remains a constant unattainable goal in my life, and although I can't stop it, at least I understand it, and know I will never be able to be "perfect enough" to keep a dad. It wasn't me or my lack of being perfect at all, but believing it so made me who I became.
And through all my therapy, and education, and research, I have found that the highest contributing factor to the development of a woman's self-esteem relates back to early relationships with men- be it father or some other significant adult male. It is primarily, (though not completely) through him that we begin to form our feminine identities, our feelings of self worth, our perception (albeit subconscious) of our value in future significant relationships, and this begins well before puberty. Adolescence shows us our self-worth through our experiences with those outside our families. If the earlier development was skewed, we will seek out and find in our peers the ones who feel most 'familiar'.

I think this subject is extremely deep, personally saddening, philosophical, full of opposing theories, and often debated heatedly. it doesn't, unfortunately, provide solutions for the individual once the identity is developed.
I always wish I could somehow rescue and 'fix' myself, along with all the other wounded inner children, that I still hear softly weeping, in this thread.
I dont know and will never know what kind of self image a child of mine would have developed. I'd like to think I would have not underestimated the importance of helping a child develop positive self- esteem, but I dont know really, how it would be done.

the other interesting thing I found is that similar behaviours/issues seemed to go back at least 2 generations, on my moms side. I already knew that her choices in men spoke volumes about her own self image- as did her weight and drinking problems. Same with her mom, it was my grandma's 2nd husband who molested me from about age 4 to 9. Grandma too was overweight, had problems in relationships with men, and wasn't a very happy, affectionate person.

LPSG has done a lot to help me as I work through some of these issues. Just having the sounding board and getting honest replies (even if sometimes it wasnt what I wanted to hear!) theres also been the support and the positive feedback from 99% of the members, and i am grateful to you all.


 

B_Kshelby67

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Sassyspy, you wrote that so beautifully. I relate very well to what you wrote.
I see a lot of my mother in myself, she was the one who choose these father figures who entered my life anyway, and I in turn, choose men who tend to treat me the same way. She always beraited herself, with my father and stepfather reiterating these thoughts. How could I ever find the tools myself to love who I was, when all I was shown was how to hate myself? After such a long time, I still find it hard to believe the things that men say to me, and even here, something in me tells me I cannot enjoy the positive comments I recieve. I have always had a sexual confidence, which is easy for me to seperate from my self esteem.
I feel guilty a lot of the time, especially when givin the comments in public threads, because I fear the ladies here won't like me. It is strange. Mostly I think because this is all stuff I have never heard before. I never dated a man who complimented me, who told me I was beautiful, who loved me for who I was, not what I could do for him. Perhaps that is why I have so quickly grown attached to this board and the people here, because you all give me the things I have needed my whole life, and it feels SO GOOD.

Note that I really am weary of exposing so much of myself all of a sudden. The thoughts just keep pouring out. I hope that you all see that this is my way of showing you all how much I trust and feel safe here. If anyone feels like I should shut my damn trap, please say so.
 

viking1

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Perfectionism remains a constant unattainable goal in my life, and although I can't stop it, at least I understand it, and know I will never be able to be "perfect enough" to keep a dad. It wasn't me or my lack of being perfect at all, but believing it so made me who I became.


Nobody can ever be perfect. While self improvement is good, trying to be perfect is doomed to failure. I don't try to be perfect. I know I can't be.

I really don't want be anybody else either. I would like to change some things about my situation, of course. The old saying "if you are with a group of people and everyone throws their problems on a pile, you would want your own problems back" is most likely very true. I'd rather be me but with some changes. I'd like to find a woman that cares about me, and can accept me that way I am, and that I could feel the same about her.
That seems to be quite elusive, though.

I can buy parts and assemble my idea of the perfect car. People don't work that way, unfortunately. If I could I'd have a face like Brad Pitt, a body like Vin Diesel, a cock like Ron Jeremy, intelligence like Albert Einstein, a personality like Bill Graham's, and weath like Bill Gates. I don't want to be any of these guys, just like to have their good attributes.

If people were like machinery, the first thing I would do is thread on a bigger cock. That has bothered me for years and I don't think I can ever get over it. I can accept the rest of me. When I say I'm not good looking I don't think I'm ugly. I am average in looks, at best. To me good looking means above average. On a scale of 1-10 (5.5 would be the median) I may be a 4.5 or 5 at best. Who wants to be average? Just like cock size. All medical studies agree that somewhere from 5-6 is average. So, I'm average, but again, who wants to be "just" average. For some reason most all the others have I seen looks bigger. Maybe I need to consult with an eye doctor.

I know this was the "feminine body image" thread, but men have issues as well. From what I read almost as much as women now, and for many of the same reasons. Pressure from society is the main cause, but how can we avoid that? Sorry for the rant. I would just like to know if, and how, some of you overcame such issues.
 

seterwind

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"Do not compare yourself to others for you will become vain and bitter; There will allways be those greater and lesser then yourself." -Desiderata

I try to live by that.
 

whatireallywant

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I have struggled with this all my life. I had a very poor body image even as a preschooler. Imagine a 3 year old with a poor body image! That was me. But, mine was the opposite of what you usually hear. I thought I was too skinny and that fat was actually more attractive. Part of that could have been my great-grandmother (who lived with us) saying that some kid was "so fat and cute with rosy cheeks" and that I was "so skinny and poor looking".

When I entered first grade at age 6, I was 3' 9" and weighed 35 lbs. I was the smallest kid in my class both in height and weight. (Later on this was to change, but I didn't know it then.)

I was, however, aware that my intelligence level was different from other kids but that was actually held against me too - I was seen as being too full of myself and thinking I'm better than everyone else. Especially in second and third grade I was tested like a lab rat - mostly IQ and such. They were all surprised at how low my score was compared to what they thought it would be - my records from the time said that they were expecting a genius level IQ and mine was only "high average". But I didn't know this at the time, and as an adult I took the test to qualify for Mensa and did qualify. I was a Mensan for several years, but dropped out because I was getting increasingly turned off by the people I met. (When I first joined, it seemed like there were some nice people, but they all moved on). I also possibly had undiagnosed ADHD. I was EXTREMELY active as a kid, very hyper. I don't know how much of that was boredom during class (in third grade I was spelling at seventh grade level, reading and math at at least fifth grade level). I was also a tomboy in a community where that was very much NOT acceptable.

Back to the body image thing though, as I got older I was ok with being slim, but at puberty and afterward thought I was too flat chested (I still think I am, although I'm probably medium sized there.) And as an adult, I gained a LOT of weight, and am no longer slim, but now I want to be! (except that I want large breasts). And maybe it could be because of how I actually look, or because of my perception of myself, but I have never dated very much, and have often gone 4 and 5 years between even short-term boyfriends. I now have an odd situation. I have been in a long term relationship that went from boyfriend, to friend with benefits, to just friend. There are various reasons for those changes, but we never did really have a "normal" relationship to begin with. I have not had any other long term (over 1 year) relationships - ever. And I am 44 years old. I've had a few short term flings, and some maybe semi-long-term ones (?) like around 6 months to a year (had maybe 3 of those).

I live in a different city now, 1200 miles from where I grew up. I am alone here, although I do have many casual friends from several clubs I belong to. That keeps me going, since all family and close friends are back in my home state. (Family in rural area, friends in city).

I know that the media images are unrealistic, and that is not really my goal anyway. I have seen women in real life who look the way I wish I looked. I know that I am very "average" and will not get immediate attention just by walking into a room (although how I wish I could do just that!) I have to rely on my personality, although that is difficult to since in real life I am very shy and hard to get to know. I have many interests, but often I have trouble expressing those interests (not just my "preference" that led me to this site!) It's getting a little better though. I can tell people that I like sports without them thinking I'm weird because "women aren't supposed to like that", and can tell people that I like indie rock and world music without people saying that that's the very kinds of music they hate! I can tell people about my interest in science without them looking at me oddly.

There are still topics I try to avoid discussing with people unless I REALLY know them. Again, not just my "preference" that led me here, but I have a difficult time talking about anything political because I hate to argue.

Yes, my self esteem still has a ways to go yet, but hopefully it'll work out. Right now my self esteem has taken a hit also because I have been fired from jobs twice in the past year because my skill level was not high enough, and am having difficulty finding a job that is at my level (they all want a higher skill level than I have). These may not have to do with body image, but they do have to do with self esteem.
 

SassySpy

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Sassyspy, you wrote that so beautifully. I relate very well to what you wrote.
I see a lot of my mother in myself, she was the one who choose these father figures who entered my life anyway, and I in turn, choose men who tend to treat me the same way. She always beraited herself, with my father and stepfather reiterating these thoughts. How could I ever find the tools myself to love who I was, when all I was shown was how to hate myself? After such a long time, I still find it hard to believe the things that men say to me, and even here, something in me tells me I cannot enjoy the positive comments I recieve. I have always had a sexual confidence, which is easy for me to seperate from my self esteem.
I feel guilty a lot of the time, especially when givin the comments in public threads, because I fear the ladies here won't like me. It is strange. Mostly I think because this is all stuff I have never heard before. I never dated a man who complimented me, who told me I was beautiful, who loved me for who I was, not what I could do for him. Perhaps that is why I have so quickly grown attached to this board and the people here, because you all give me the things I have needed my whole life, and it feels SO GOOD.

Note that I really am weary of exposing so much of myself all of a sudden. The thoughts just keep pouring out. I hope that you all see that this is my way of showing you all how much I trust and feel safe here. If anyone feels like I should shut my damn trap, please say so.

you sound exactly like me, :smile: right down to the times of getting weary of exposing so much. I think though its cathartic to let it out, it is also exhausting. no matter how long its been or what we think we have resolved, the same emotions bubble beneath the surface when one thinks, talks, or writes of them- and it is draining emotionally. No one wants you to shut your trap- say what you want when you want and whenever you feel comfortable doing so. Its okay. We're here. :smile:

Nobody can ever be perfect. While self improvement is good, trying to be perfect is doomed to failure. I don't try to be perfect. I know I can't be.

I know this was the "feminine body image" thread, but men have issues as well. From what I read almost as much as women now, and for many of the same reasons. Pressure from society is the main cause, but how can we avoid that? Sorry for the rant. I would just like to know if, and how, some of you overcame such issues.

you're right, no one can ever be perfect, (except NIC160 of course, he's a legend in his own mind :smile:)
but its the perfectionism and the continuous attempt to reach it that makes it a perfect psychological disorder. We somehow try to heal the inner wounds we had as children, even if we arent aware of it- and my obsessive compulsive behaviours and perfectionism are simply because somewhere in my child mind, I believed that if everything were perfect, daddy would stay home. Now it is a learned behaviour, I actually am somewhat comforted by my OCD as I feel safe within its boundaries and limitations.
Of course you know we dont have any strictly gender specific threads here, Viking! and yes men do suffer exactly the same issues, tho they may not exhibit the same way. Rant away, Its what this place is so good for !!:tongue:
 

earllogjam

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What are some solutions to endemic body loathing of teen girls? This article gives light to a possible antidote - communal nudity.

BODY IMAGE

Not long ago some summer-camp girlfriends and I had a sleepover, and at about 3 a.m., after we'd exhausted the topics of cute guys and the new 2005 SATs, the talk turned to our 16-year-old bodies: thighs, bellies, hair, boobs, booties. Did we like them? Did Jess wish she had Nomi's legs, did Maggie covet Natasha's complexion? Did we hate changing in the school locker rooms, did we plotz at the thought of being seen in our bikinis? Sprawled out on sleeping bags, munching on mini-marshmallows and Cheez Doodles, we were somewhat surprised to find out that we all shared a similar sentiment: We felt fine about our bodies. Sure, Natasha confided, she wished her boobs were “more symmetrical,” and Maggie that she had “less hairy upper-inner thighs,” but in a hierarchy of things that obsessed us, these issues fell fairly low on the list. We looked, we all agreed, “good enough” for the locker rooms. And at the beach? Well, chicken legs, love handles, flat chests…they were just what we’d been dealt."

We knew that this level of body acceptance was very different from that of most teenage girls. America’s consumerist culture, after all – the vast self-improvement aisles at pharmacies, women’s magazines that promise 6 or 8 or 10 steps to a perfect butt month after month, our society’s fixation on Hollywood looks – all seem almost intended to make girls feel like shit. Each one of us knew girls who stuck to mineral water while the rest of us split Chinese food, who passed up incredible class trips because the thought of someone seeing them undressed or without makeup flipped them out.

It was clear to us that our summer camp’s overall culture had, to some extent, immunized us against this teen epidemic of body loathing. But how? “The BIK,” Toni said, referring to our camp’s communal bathhouse, a plain concrete building – one side for girls, the other for boys – where we all (campers, counselors, assorted others) day after day, and summer after summer, showered naked with each other. BIK is Hebrew acronym for bait keesay (“house of the chair”), a euphemism for bathroom. Ours – with its no-frills shower rooms – wasn’t anything to write home about: the pipe missing its shower-head, dozens of bottles of shampoo, conditioner, and body wash strewn over a couple of wooden shelves, the slightly slimy floor. Early in the morning or late at night there might be only two or three showerers in the BIK, but at rush hours like right before Shabbat or just after swim, there’s hardly standing room. The building is intended for use by campers 12 or 13 and older, but as the single-shower stalls in the younger kids’ bunks inevitably break and flood, they often use the BIK regularly, too.

In the BIK, a 10-year-old camper rinsing off after a swim might suddenly find herself in a room full of naked singing 15-year-olds and counselors – and maybe a nurse or lifeguard or two – every one of them exhibiting an impressive ease with exposing their differently shaped bodies. “It’s like the Great Equalizer,” said Toni through a mouthful of Cheerios, “a place where you see all these differently shaped bodies that make you realize how ridiculous it would be to spend every minute of every day miserable about how you look." “And when you’re 8 or 10 or 12,” someone else chimed in, “and you see all the older girls you completely idolize having very not ideal bodies, but they’re singing and chatting and doing the naked hokey-pokey, discussing what kind of potato chip they like, you see that they’re 100 percent comfortable being naked, and you want to have that comfort, too.”

The lessons we learned at the BIK are profound (and extremely counter-cultural). Here are six properties that I think made the BIK work for us:

• It requires an initial leap of faith. When a girl first steps into the BIK naked (a lot of girls start out showering in their bathing suits, and then there’s that day when they “take it all off”), it’s scary. You have to pretend you feel fine when you really don’t, hoping that pretending turns into the real thing. It does.

• There’s a culture of support. The large culture makes you feel inadequate, and the truth is that the constant competition is exhausting. The BIK is a relief from that. Everyone who steps into the BIK is affirming an implicit covenant: We support one another. Being naked was (or is) difficult for every single one of us – and that creates a feeling of safety.

• It’s multigenerational. The larger culture is pretty age-segregated, so the 8-to-25-year-old population of the BIK is unique. For younger girls, being able to identify with older females is a source of pride. The older girls and counselors, for their part, know that they are role models for the young showerers, and having that “responsibility” provides a potent incentive to be, as one counselor told me, “positive and open and free about our bodies.”

• The BIK is a reality check. Showering with dozens of other females over the course of a summer means that you see bodies of all different shapes and sizes. It cures you of the oppressive belief that you’re the only one who is imperfect. Hannah, 16, recalls one shower during which every girl put forward her largest physical insecurity. Hannah’s overwhelming memory is that she hadn’t noticed any of these things – a mole on the backside of someone’s ear, different- colored nipples, a faint unibrow. “It suddenly occurred to me that the things I obsessed about, other people weren’t noticing about me, either,” Hannah says.

• It’s pushing back against American culture. It’s unbelievable – and tragic – to realize that it’s actually subversive for females to feel okay about their bodies, to take back our right to feel even adequate. As one of my friends said, “We should be arrested for feeling this good about ourselves.”

• It’s joyful! When you’re naked in the shower and your whole self is out there for everyone to see, you basically have nothing more to lose. You can regress to the years before you learned to feel insecure about your body and, like a toddler, just enjoy the opportunity to run around nude. It’s pure liberation.

Showering in the BIK is affirming, empowering, and fun, and it gives us the tools we need to keep working at the ongoing struggle for self-acceptance. The greatest challenge is during the winter months, when, lonely under the showerhead, you begin to feel too fat, or too flat, and you have to work to recall the lessons of the BIK.

“At home I try to spread the BIK just by being completely accepting of people – in every way, but especially physically,” said Toni. “Everyone has the potential to be comfortable with her body, but not everyone has the privilege.”

-- Anna Schnur-Fishman, Lilith magazine


This may be one reason why guys don't have such a huge issue with body image because we always see each other naked all the time in locker rooms, old, young, and fellow classmates. We know what normal looks like and it ain't coming from any magazine.