Feminism/Feminist

[sbat]

I don't think being well connected is a bad thing. Honestly I don't think that's really a form of discrimination.

Once again, I think your definition of equality is a bit different than mine.

I haven't put forward any definitions of anything. Just clarifying the practical application of the ideals expressed by those who have shared their definition of feminism

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

So if an exotic dance club is started, but they hire men to dance for women only to watch, would it be very successful? Not a huge chance. Nothing compared to naked women. Why? Because women aren't as attracted to men dancing on poles as much as gay men would be or as much as men are attracted to women dancing on poles. Does this mean that the whole exotic dancing industry is against men? I dont think so. Some things just don't work for men as they do women. Whether it's bred into us or told to us...it is what it is and probably will never change.

Women have been able to go to medschool for decades, but like 2% of brain surgeons are female. Why is this? It's because the nature of the field requires your residency and fellowship to go back to back in order to retain the knowledge you've learned. This usually means that a woman who went to 4 years premed, 4 years medical school, 4 years residency and 4 or more years surgical residency for brain surgery is likely to take almost 20 years of her life preparing for the field. It is nearly impossible to do this kind of work and be pregnant or see any children you have. Women almost always will choose a lifestyle that will enable them to see their family, get married or date in some form or fashion.

Men are able to go into this line of work and be married and have a woman at home to raise the children for him mostly. This also means that women are more likely to understand their roles and importance in seeing their children as most of the time another person could not take their place as easily. Women are used to being around the children and even grandchildren a much longer period of time in their lives, as tribes even place a higher precidence female role models in the family. Women outlive men on average, by a number of years. You will likely see your father or grandfather die before your Mom or Grandma. The Grandma is valued as a female caregiver to the children and to teach values. This is sociologically speaking. Which would explain why female physicians are not likely to want to give this role up while they are going through neurosurgery fellowship training.

Does this sort of thing qualify as sexism, when a male pole dancer isn't going to be nearly as popular as a female pole dancer of the same skills? Or does this say something about sociology and not descrimination taught to us. Does it mean that neurosurgeons are more likely male because no one wants a female operating on their brain? No. This used to be the case in all medical fields decades past. But there are more female physicians than ever before. But yet, the field of neurosurg is still male dominated.

I also used the example of: If a woman who is 50 years old starts a housecleaning business, has every bit of cleaning ability and business know how as a man of the same age. Who do you think will be trusted more to have a key to the house on average? It's not because women are necessarily more trustworthy to not steal from you. They could both be bonded, insured and licensed and work alone. It still will never be as acceptable for him to work cleaning houses in someones home compared to if he was there to be a carpenter.

Some things are automatically thrown in the category of discrimination or sexism. When it really isnt if you break it down.

 

[helgaleena]

What about Chippendales? There seems to be a market for 'the full Monty' so once again I think you project your personal viewpoint onto the whole of society with these arguments, MR.

sbat is distressed by nepotism. Like graft, it is part of the human condition. It does not have to be made into the law, though.

The most fundamental thing we need in the world is equal pay for equal work. Those who are forced to work for subsistence level remuneration because of a glut of labor, that is, too many workers and too few jobs, undercut the welfare of the many because they must survive. The employers encourage this because it saves them expense. But it means that a woman, who is harder pressed to avoid parental support, needs to accept 'the going rate' for her services, and it is customarily much less than what a man is paid. This is at every skill level, from waiting tables or hauling dirt to executive office. And it's everywhere, not just in our own nation.

It is making such a custom illegal which faces so much political opposition. Those who oppose, usually also oppose minimum wage edicts.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

What about Chippendales? There seems to be a market for 'the full Monty' so once again I think you project your personal viewpoint onto the whole of society with these arguments, MR.

My original question was what does it mean to you and why. Not what does society think it is by a definition you think sounds politically correct to please all people.

Chippendale's is not something that is an established place of work with franchises around cities where you can walk in and have a beer and place dollar bills in their g-strings. This is a troupe of carefully selected men for the purpose of traveling around as a "special" thing women can see every now and again. We don't have a Chippendale's strip joint open from 6am to 2am every night where we ladies can go. Because the establishment would fail and they know it. Which is why there is a traveling troupe, they figured out what works to make money.

It's not a sexist reason as to why men aren't able to have the same success as women in this occupation. It's because the male and female brains are naturally drawn to certain things or not. Men by far are going to make female dancers have a more lucrative career opportunity. Women just aren't as interested in spending their time in an establishment like that as a stress reliever or a way to get sexual contact with a man.

My other occupational examples of where men could also have more trouble making money compared to women are based in reality. Not my personal experiences only. They are common sense ideas broken down into microbits for people to understand why they are the way they are and not necessarily automatically sexism or anti-female.

sbat is distressed by nepotism. Like graft, it is part of the human condition. It does not have to be made into the law, though.

The most fundamental thing we need in the world is equal pay for equal work. Those who are forced to work for subsistence level remuneration because of a glut of labor, that is, too many workers and too few jobs, undercut the welfare of the many because they must survive. The employers encourage this because it saves them expense. But it means that a woman, who is harder pressed to avoid parental support, needs to accept 'the going rate' for her services, and it is customarily much less than what a man is paid. This is at every skill level, from waiting tables or hauling dirt to executive office. And it's everywhere, not just in our own nation.

It is making such a custom illegal which faces so much political opposition. Those who oppose, usually also oppose minimum wage edicts.

I know a lot of people who run businesses, people in higher management in major corporations. People often get hired at the going rate for the position and then their yearly preformance appraisals are carefully written and then calculated with a system to see how much of a raise is allowed for the performance. Not all businesses run this way, but many large corporations do. In order to protect themselves from being accused of discrimination.

In this day and age, many people were raised in a single parent household, i think most normal people wouldn't want to hold a person down because they are the sole bread winner. People don't even ask you on your interview if you are a single mother. And what kind of boss would think, i think im going to pay her less because she needs it more!

And as for waitresses, here in my state there is a minimum wage of $2.13 an hour. The rest is up to them to make by their service ability in tips. It's the way that type of industry works. So everyone here makes the minimum wage if they are a waiter, their tips is what pays the bills. There is nothing wrong with that system, because men and women are both put at the same minimum wage level and rely on their skills of waiting tables in order to make their money. Has nothing to do with male or female discrimination.

So tell me what your personal stories are based on what you do for a living, because one of my occupations listed as a female dominated business is something i actually do and talk to people globally about on the internet- men and women. To see how that works out for men compared to women.

I also know about neurosurgery and why it is a male dominated field. I broke down as to why it is, given that there are so many female surgeons out there, but not neurosurgeons. But when you here "male dominated" you automatically assume someone is holding women back. Often time it is her own fertile time clock, the most fertile years of her life are spend working 180 hours a week at the hospital if not more to learn neurosurgery. Most women want children at some point in their life, so to assume that not wanting to sacrifice one for the other is not unusual.

In fact, i held off going to medschool because i wanted to start a family while i was still young and not have to make a child be raised by someone else while i was going to medschool. I might decide to go when my daughter gets a little older. So my experience with medical demographics, being a female, and seeing medschool entrance requirements and their female student to male student ratios.

So while you can say much of what i said earlier in this thread about feminism and Sarah Palin and ugly women is entirely my opinion, you can't discount much of what i said in this post because it is based in fact, reality and understanding of how business works. You find your target demographic, in the sex industry, women are there to attract the demographic that makes money, not be there as the patrons giving their money. Nothing to do with sexism.

In cleaning, there is something about a man coming to clean your home regularly that doesn't sit well with homeowners. Maybe it's a safety concern. But it's not sexism for the sake of feeling that men are less than women. It's simply what it is. Women make homeowners feel more comfortable with having a stranger in their house, around their belongings, around their children.

Neurosurgery isn't dominated by males because men are holding women back. Women have a crucial choice to make when it comes to the 16 consecutive year schooling program that affects them from 20 to 40 years old, the prime time to have children if you are going to.

Nothing opinionated about any of these outlooks on occupation.

 

[sbat]

So in a nutshell, the "equality of opportunity" is a warm and fuzzy impossibility because of human nature and biology. A basic understanding of incentives would make it pretty simple as to why.

Equality of opportunity is a slippery slope - I have seen unworthy folks promoted to positions they were not qualified for because they were part of an 'underrepresented' group. The result is often people in high(ish) positions who deny opportunities to people of their same group who ARE talented enough out of envy and insecurity - OR - who focus their hiring on "underrepresented" groups who meet certain minimum standards (emphasis on minumum standard here), rather than selecting the cream of the crop. In the end, quality of service drops, as the absolute best are often overlooked.

We end up with almost a reverse discrimination. Take a look at the hiring practices of the federal and state governments in the US, particularly in roles that do not require a terminal degree. The end result is in fact an increase in nepotism/networking effects/unposted job openings in the private sector as equality oriented employment laws proliferate. Hell, I've gotten a job on the basis of the name of the school that I went to because some insiders were fellow alumni (networking effect).

I say screw all isms and abstract notions, and simply treat others with respect.

I know a lot of people who run businesses, people in higher management in major corporations. People often get hired at the going rate for the position and then their yearly preformance appraisals are carefully written and then calculated with a system to see how much of a raise is allowed for the performance. Not all businesses run this way, but many large corporations do. In order to protect themselves from being accused of discrimination.

In this day and age, many people were raised in a single parent household, i think most normal people wouldn't want to hold a person down because they are the sole bread winner. People don't even ask you on your interview if you are a single mother. And what kind of boss would think, i think im going to pay her less because she needs it more!

And as for waitresses, here in my state there is a minimum wage of $2.13 an hour. The rest is up to them to make by their service ability in tips. It's the way that type of industry works. So everyone here makes the minimum wage if they are a waiter, their tips is what pays the bills. There is nothing wrong with that system, because men and women are both put at the same minimum wage level and rely on their skills of waiting tables in order to make their money. Has nothing to do with male or female discrimination.

So tell me what your personal stories are based on what you do for a living, because one of my occupations listed as a female dominated business is something i actually do and talk to people globally about on the internet- men and women. To see how that works out for men compared to women.

I also know about neurosurgery and why it is a male dominated field. I broke down as to why it is, given that there are so many female surgeons out there, but not neurosurgeons. But when you here "male dominated" you automatically assume someone is holding women back. Often time it is her own fertile time clock, the most fertile years of her life are spend working 180 hours a week at the hospital if not more to learn neurosurgery. Most women want children at some point in their life, so to assume that not wanting to sacrifice one for the other is not unusual.

In fact, i held off going to medschool because i wanted to start a family while i was still young and not have to make a child be raised by someone else while i was going to medschool. I might decide to go when my daughter gets a little older. So my experience with medical demographics, being a female, and seeing medschool entrance requirements and their female student to male student ratios.

So while you can say much of what i said earlier in this thread about feminism and Sarah Palin and ugly women is entirely my opinion, you can't discount much of what i said in this post because it is based in fact, reality and understanding of how business works. You find your target demographic, in the sex industry, women are there to attract the demographic that makes money, not be there as the patrons giving their money. Nothing to do with sexism.

In cleaning, there is something about a man coming to clean your home regularly that doesn't sit well with homeowners. Maybe it's a safety concern. But it's not sexism for the sake of feeling that men are less than women. It's simply what it is. Women make homeowners feel more comfortable with having a stranger in their house, around their belongings, around their children.

Neurosurgery isn't dominated by males because men are holding women back. Women have a crucial choice to make when it comes to the 16 consecutive year schooling program that affects them from 20 to 40 years old, the prime time to have children if you are going to.

Nothing opinionated about any of these outlooks on occupation.

 

[dolfette]

meritocracy.

 

[D_Rosalind Mussell]

What feminism means to me in my life:

-Acknowledging the merits, skills and education of individuals in the workplace and paying them accordingly without regard to their physicality.

-Helping the women who need it most, especially those with children and no resources, without regard to race, religion, political leaning, etc.

-Being unafraid to speak up about misogyny and misandry in work, home and social situations.

-Respecting a woman's right to choose, even if that choice does not align with our opinion.

and most importantly:

-Living life in the manner we see fit and respecting the rights of all individuals regardless of their physicality. Theory, opinions and activism mean nothing if we're not "walking the walk."


I can't tell you how many times I've spoken up in workplaces about misogyny and misandry. Perhaps by definition I'm more of an equalist, but I don't think one can address misogyny without addressing misandry. For me, it's like ignoring the fact that a coin has a flip side. To be honest, I really hate this pigeon-holing bullshit we do to one another. I think society as a whole needs to stop generalizing and start forming their opinions on a case-by-case basis. One misogynistic/misandric jackass does not speak for all men and women.

*steps down from soapbox*

 

[wallyj84]

So in a nutshell, the "equality of opportunity" is a warm and fuzzy impossibility because of human nature and biology. A basic understanding of incentives would make it pretty simple as to why.

Equality of opportunity is a slippery slope - I have seen unworthy folks promoted to positions they were not qualified for because they were part of an 'underrepresented' group. The result is often people in high(ish) positions who deny opportunities to people of their same group who ARE talented enough out of envy and insecurity - OR - who focus their hiring on "underrepresented" groups who meet certain minimum standards (emphasis on minumum standard here), rather than selecting the cream of the crop. In the end, quality of service drops, as the absolute best are often overlooked.

We end up with almost a reverse discrimination. Take a look at the hiring practices of the federal and state governments in the US, particularly in roles that do not require a terminal degree. The end result is in fact an increase in nepotism/networking effects/unposted job openings in the private sector as equality oriented employment laws proliferate. Hell, I've gotten a job on the basis of the name of the school that I went to because some insiders were fellow alumni (networking effect).

I say screw all isms and abstract notions, and simply treat others with respect.

Wow, didn't see this coming.

 

[helgaleena]

Meritocracy would be great, and would definitely obviate the need for feminism or reverse discrimination of all sorts. Dream on.

 

[sbat]

Chin up and eyes open, junior

Wow, didn't see this coming.

 

[B_New End]

The right to live free from sexual harassment and domestic violence.

One of the things that frustrates me is I would dare say a majority (more than 50%) women don't report rape or domestic violence or attempted rape. I have run into it too many times, and once it was very personal.

I mean, I don't know what could be done to make it more "appealing" to report, but usually, it seems like they just hope it will go away. I get all angry, and they act like it wasn't a big deal... ...while I am plotting murder.

Feminsim is like christianity and Islam and every other -ism. It is definied by the person claiming they are one.

And Naomi Wolf is another very hot feminist.