Finally a parent is held accountable

[Bbucko]

Oh my God!

Do we need to start a new thread about this? The last page and a half is people bitching about capitals and periods!

Hulk:
I enjoy your threads, but I didn't read a lick of the above post because I can imagine it's a book report on Marley's grammar. Yes, I realize there's an irony in my writing style vis a vis the subject matter here, but is it really that much of a disturbance? If you were having this conversation with a friend, would you stop them at every mispronounced or incorrectly used word and say "Hey, we're talking about education, you have to display yours perfectly"?

Once again, I believe that, with few exceptions, my words are all that are needed to orchestrate my point; anything beyond that is personal preference.

For the last time, if it's that important, ignore me. Just because you don't like the way I write (or discredit what i say) doesn't mean others do. Obviously somebody's getting my point: you can't say they're not just because you don't!

And if you do get what I'm saying, what's the big fucking deal? These aren't articles for the New York Times I'm writing, and they're not essays for college.

I developed this style from my parents who went to church or company picnics and dressed up their linguistics, then came home and let their hair down and spoke with all the inflections associated with Ebonics. I write the way I do because i don't think i'm talking to college professors and editorial managers. For the most part I'm talking to friends who don't care more about what I say other than how I say it.

The fact that you have chosen to make this a racial thing shows the paucity of either your premise or your intellect.

I, for one, am highly offended that you'd suggest that I am insensitive to your point of view simply because I refuse to recognize lazy typing and a poor grasp of paragraph structure as the written equivalent of Ebonics.

And, no...just because we're part of the same on-line community does not make us "friends". And equally no...I will not censor LPSG in any fashion by putting you on ignore.

May I suggest that you actually read the criticism along with the high-fives? You might just continue your education.

 

[marleyisalegend]

it's clear to me now, my grammar has nothing to do with you misunderstanding me. i in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM implied racism was involved, i used ebonics as an EXAMPLE of speaking properly in public and speaking casually at home. here's an example that won't ruffle any sensitive feathers since obviously i can't say "black" or "ebonics" without being racist.

my sister is getting married next week. guess what i'm wearing to the FORMAL occassion? a tux. i'm at home in my bed right now, do i have to wear a tux? no, it's not a special occassion. my postings aren't going in any scientific journals or newspapers, so my writing stye doesn't reflect my ability here because it doesn't have to. this isn't the new yorker here, it's just a blog site.

 

[snoozan]

it is still one that shouldn't be ignored, parents who are out shaking their asses at the club or pounding shots of whiskey while their kid is at home trying to learn how to read and write.

That's such an extreme example though. Most parents aren't doing that. One guy I know is divorced and has 2 kids. He takes the kids to school every day and picks them up, but from what I see that's where his involvement with their education ends. He has a business to run and he was never much of a student himself. Though I wouldn't find that level of involvement to be acceptable for myself, it's ultimately his choice as a parent. The kids are getting an education, albeit not one where they will likely flourish in school.

I know a lot of parents like this, for whom work and other life stresses make raising children and getting them educated well just isn't a priority. It's sad, and it reflects a lot on our culture. We may pay lip service to it, but we don't appreciate education as a society. For most people the only reason it's valuable is because it will get you more money. Anything else is just wasted. That's a tragedy to me, and I hope that my child grows up with different values. However, my values aren't everyone's.

 

[marleyisalegend]

That's such an extreme example though. Most parents aren't doing that.

you're overestimating people's behavioral patterns and using a personal opinion to represent a majority. first of all, even if only a few do, should we ignore those few just because most don't? for the matter, how many homes have you monitored to make the assumption that most don't. do you know anything about alcohol sales, demographic, time-period where most alcohol is consumed, any of that? what facts are you using to make a claim that most parents don't behave like this? social services has PAGES UPON PAGES UPON PAGES of cases of neglect and abuse. part of what fuels those behaviors is the fact that people like to pretend they don't happen. between 4 female cousins, they each have 15 babies. one has five, two more have four, and the fourth has two. the babies fathers are constantly in and out of jail, the children are constantly removed from the homes, some even suffered physical abuse before they could even speak. one of the girls was 8 months present when her boyfriend beat her up, then proceeded to beat up her two year old child. do you think that after all this, the moms and dads i'm talking about sit down with their kids to explain multiplication?

don't you fucking dare sit there and tell me that everything is honky dory and every parent is a shining example of paternal skills unless you've got some kind of fucking evidence, statistics to back that shit up. part of what breaks my heart for this country is our ability to look at bad stories and say "that's extreme" "that doesn't happen that much". really? then why do we have entire fucking agencies who's sole purpose is to go to foster homes and visit children that deal with these things on a daily fucking basis. it's one thing to ignore what happens in this country in LARGE numbers. don't get up here and tell me i'm fucking wrong just because you imagine a eutopia world with joan cleaver showing little sally how to divide. i'm preparing to offer a few numbers that may make your head spin and make you realize that the "extreme examples" you speak of are actually pretty goddamn common in this country.

 

[marleyisalegend]

http://www.childabuse.org/images/stats%20header.jpg
Child abuse and neglect is reaching epidemic proportions with disastrous consequences. Judges, lawyers, physicians and other community professionals agree that tax dollars would be best spent preventing abuse and preserving families. Unfortunately, adequate resources have not been invested by state and Federal government to make significant prevention possible. One problem is that on both these levels the political constituency necessary to meet the needs of children has not been organized

Abuse Statistics

According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, in 2003, approximately 906,000 children were victims and an estimated 1,500 children died of abuse or neglect.

translation, almost 100,000 children who are being abused and neglected in 2003. extreme examples huh?

In 2005, apporoximately 30,000 children were reported abused or neglected and referred for investigation in Colorado.

in one state alone, a city's worth of children were abused and neglected in a year


Approximately 80% of child abuse is perpetrated by a parent or caregiver.

translation, a large amount of those kids were abused by parents/caregivers

Children under the age of 4 account for 75% of all child abuse deaths

translation, 75 percent of all child-abuse victims are abused before they're old enough to ride a bike without training wheels
-------------------------------------------------
Each week, child protective services (CPS) agencies throughout the United States receive more than 50,000 reports of suspected child abuse or neglect. In 2002, 2.6 million reports concerning the welfare of approximately 4.5 million children were made

translation? every goddamn week there is an entire city's worth of children being reported as abused and neglected. even if half the reports are bogus, it's still a small town's worth of children abused EVERY WEEK.

tell me again how most parents are joan cleaver.

However, many reports (44 percent) came from nonprofessional sources, such as parents, other relatives, friends, and neighbors

that means nationwide, damn near half of the child abusers are the kids' own parents

Child Abuse Statistics

 

[snoozan]

you're overestimating people's behavioral patterns and using a personal opinion to represent a majority. first of all, even if only a few do, should we ignore those few just because most don't? for the matter, how many homes have you monitored to make the assumption that most don't.

Of course we shouldn't ignore the ones who are neglectful and abusive. But that's another topic entirely.

do you know anything about alcohol sales, demographic, time-period where most alcohol is consumed, any of that? what facts are you using to make a claim that most parents don't behave like this? social services has PAGES UPON PAGES UPON PAGES of cases of neglect and abuse.

Actually, even though our social services system is flawed, you'll still find that most children are never scrutinized by social services. Remember, teachers and other professionals who work with children are required by law to take action when they suspect any kind of abuse or neglect. From the data I could find on the net, the rate of victimization is 12.3 children per 1,000 children-- which is 1.23%. There is some suspicion that the rate is 3 times higher than what is reported, but that's still under 4%. I'm not saying that it's acceptable, but what I am saying is that from these statistics, it seems like most parents are not abusing their children.

part of what fuels those behaviors is the fact that people like to pretend they don't happen. between 4 female cousins, they each have 15 babies. one has five, two more have four, and the fourth has two. the babies fathers are constantly in and out of jail, the children are constantly removed from the homes, some even suffered physical abuse before they could even speak. one of the girls was 8 months present when her boyfriend beat her up, then proceeded to beat up her two year old child. do you think that after all this, the moms and dads i'm talking about sit down with their kids to explain multiplication?

Of course not. Again, this is a failing of both our society and of our educational system as a whole. Penalizing these parents who don't know any better or don't care to know an better isn't going to change their behavior. Having a system in place so that this kind of behavior isn't perpetuated generation after generation would work better, in my opinion.

With that said, I think your example is pretty extreme. I'm not coming from some hunky dory worldview or whatever-- you'd be surprised that what I come from isn't much different from what you've described. However, the vast majority of Americans don't live that way no matter what Jerry Springer and the Republican party would have you believe.

don't you fucking dare sit there and tell me that everything is honky dory and every parent is a shining example of paternal skills unless you've got some kind of fucking evidence, statistics to back that shit up.

I never said that. In fact, in the example I gave I was pretty clear that I didn't think the person I was writing about was a great parent in my opinion.

part of what breaks my heart for this country is our ability to look at bad stories and say "that's extreme" "that doesn't happen that much". really? then why do we have entire fucking agencies who's sole purpose is to go to foster homes and visit children that deal with these things on a daily fucking basis.

I don't understand why you're getting so angry. Most parents do not abuse or neglect their children in a way significant to the state per the statistics quoted above. With that said, I never, ever said that it doesn't exist. I come from a long line of physically abused women, and I understand how awful it is and how it gets passed on from generation to generation. But the examples you give aren't representative of most people. That's my only point.

it's one thing to ignore what happens in this country in LARGE numbers. don't get up here and tell me i'm fucking wrong just because you imagine a eutopia world with joan cleaver showing little sally how to divide. i'm preparing to offer a few numbers that may make your head spin and make you realize that the "extreme examples" you speak of are actually pretty goddamn common in this country.

You mentioned these examples, where are your data? I never said you were wrong, I just said that your example was extreme and not representative of what most children experience. I never said it didn't happen, or that it doesn't need to be addressed.

 

[snoozan]

http://www.childabuse.org/images/stats%20header.jpg
Child abuse and neglect is reaching epidemic proportions with disastrous consequences. Judges, lawyers, physicians and other community professionals agree that tax dollars would be best spent preventing abuse and preserving families. Unfortunately, adequate resources have not been invested by state and Federal government to make significant prevention possible. One problem is that on both these levels the political constituency necessary to meet the needs of children has not been organized

Abuse Statistics

According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, in 2003, approximately 906,000 children were victims and an estimated 1,500 children died of abuse or neglect.

translation, almost 100,000 children who are being abused and neglected in 2003. extreme examples huh?

In 2005, apporoximately 30,000 children were reported abused or neglected and referred for investigation in Colorado.

in one state alone, a city's worth of children were abused and neglected in a year


Approximately 80% of child abuse is perpetrated by a parent or caregiver.

translation, a large amount of those kids were abused by parents/caregivers

Children under the age of 4 account for 75% of all child abuse deaths

translation, 75 percent of all child-abuse victims are abused before they're old enough to ride a bike without training wheels
-------------------------------------------------
Each week, child protective services (CPS) agencies throughout the United States receive more than 50,000 reports of suspected child abuse or neglect. In 2002, 2.6 million reports concerning the welfare of approximately 4.5 million children were made

translation? every goddamn week there is an entire city's worth of children being reported as abused and neglected. even if half the reports are bogus, it's still a small town's worth of children abused EVERY WEEK.

tell me again how most parents are joan cleaver.

However, many reports (44 percent) came from nonprofessional sources, such as parents, other relatives, friends, and neighbors

that means nationwide, damn near half of the child abusers are the kids' own parents

Child Abuse Statistics

With all these alarming statistics you neglected to present that the rate of child abuse expressed as a percentage is reported at under 2%. Is it a problem? Of course it is. In a perfect world there should no child abuse, and child abusers should be punished harshly. But as it relates to the topic at hand, as was my original intent, I don't think jailing mediocre parents is the way to go when their kids fuck up their lives by not graduating high school.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Of course we shouldn't ignore the ones who are neglectful and abusive. But that's another topic entirely.

actually if you've been paying attention that's EXACTLY what i've been talking about, parents being neglectful

come from isn't much different from what you've described. However, the vast majority of Americans don't live that way no matter what Jerry Springer and the Republican party would have you believe.

anything to back this up other than personal opinion?

But the examples you give aren't representative of most people. That's my only point.

so should we ignore child neglect since it's not happening most of the time?

I never said you were wrong, I just said that your example was extreme and not representative of what most children experience. I never said it didn't happen, or that it doesn't need to be addressed

sure the examples are extreme, but should they be ignored since they don't represent a majority?? should every adversity that's only minor be ignored since it's only a small portion??

 

[marleyisalegend]

With all these alarming statistics you neglected to present that the rate of child abuse expressed as a percentage is reported at under 2%. Is it a problem? Of course it is. In a perfect world there should no child abuse, and child abusers should be punished harshly. But as it relates to the topic at hand, as was my original intent, I don't think jailing mediocre parents is the way to go when their kids fuck up their lives by not graduating high school.

then we're in agreement because i've never once stated and in fact have several times spoken against jailing every parent who's kid flunks out of school.

 

[Draconis71]

Parents SHOULD take action for their kids. Adults should take responsibility for their own actions.

I'm seeing, at work, that WAY few parents taught any sets of values to the kids, except "me me me me".
In an ADULT setting (workplace) stuff is being CONSTANTLY stolen (lunches, etc)... by your co-workers, who are all ADULTS (apparently).
I don't know the whole story of the court order, whether the young brat was disabled/in parental care after 18... if she was living at his place... she damned well should have been studying/working, or at least TRYING. Not everyone CAN learn with the given system. It trys teaching in one way. Not the best for all learners/learning types.
Read-parrot/listen-parrot works for some, but, not all. Show me HOW something works/WHY it works, then I can understand it, not just "because"

 

[marleyisalegend]

Parents SHOULD take action for their kids. Adults should take responsibility for their own actions.

that's all i'm saying. there has to be a line somewhere that says "you know what, there's no excuse for the neglect and lack of control you're taking in your childs life". if the parent is doing all they can that's one thing, but there are many parents who don't see their kid for days at a time and couldn't care less. i'm not saying punish good parents, punish bad ones. guess what's happened to crime since the US started increasing imprisonment?? it's gone down. is it not fair to assume that if we buckle down on NEGLECTFUL parents, that behavior may decrease too?

 

[Freddie53]

WHEN DO YOU MEND THE HEM OF A DRESS THAT HAS JUST STARTED UNRAVELING? WHEN THE FIRST SECTION OF THE HEM STARTS UNRAVELING OR WAIT UNTIL THE HEM IS COMPLETELY UNRAVELED.


Just stumbled on this thread. I am a retired elementary teacher. When a chidl was in kindergarten we teachers knew who was having problems with learning and needed help, which children could be successful in school IF their parents were doing their jobs as parents.

I digress here just a second: There will be some students who can not be successful at staying on grade level particularly as they rise through the lower and then upper grades. Some of these have functionally retarded or have a serious learning disability that prevents them from reading from a page even though they may be very bright.

I can not emphasize enough that we wouldn't have this large number of functionally illiterate adults if we would seriously address this problem early on. Preschool for four year olds should be mandatory in every state. (Those children a bit behind in development and have a birthday that makes them in the youngest fourth of the class might need to wait a year.) I understand that this is what is done in some European nations.

I have no problem holding parents responsible. What is wrong with our system is we pick out a 19 year old. Why did we wait that long. Don't try to tell me that on her 19th birthday this problem developed and before that she was a straight A honor student in a public high school.

Not America, our curriculum schedules in high school are first centered around when the coaches can have football practice. (I am a great fan of high school football.) In Middle Schools (Sixth grade-Eighth grade) schools are often guilty of putting the teachers that the high school principal did not want on his staff.

(I taught sixth grade, but there are way too many high school teachers trying to teach middle school age students who aren't really children or teens yet. They are a special group. Taught right they can learn and retain information that is absolutely remarkable, but only if the teacher can stay in front of the kids attention in creative ways to keep the learning on learning designed by the teacher, not on learning of outside influences that in time are destructive to the students character, morale and ultimate level of education.)

And we NEED two teachers in kindergarten rooms with no more than 18 students, preferably 15. It would be even more ideal if one teacher was male and the other female. The boys especially at that age adore having a man come in and teach. All they ever see is women teaching and a very large majority of students that are falling behind are boys who have absentee fathers.

If we could:

1.Have mandatory preschool with two teachers per 12 students. One would not have to be certified teacher and can be a teacher's aide.

2. Have the prescribed kindergarten I mentioned with two teachers per 18 students.

3. Continue having two teachers (One can be a teacher's aide) with no more than 21 students per class.

4. Don't average in the music art, PE, Special Ed, Liberian and all the other special teachers to get the numbers to appear to be the above numbers. These ratios that schools sometimes publish are a joke. Creative statistics will be published to state that the ratio is 15 to 1 in first grade. But in reality there are 24 kids assigned to that first grade teacher's classroom.

5. Let students who are the youngest in the class, show signs of being being developmentally slow repeat either preschool, kindergarten or first grade. I am not saying failed, I said repeat. If the evidence shows that staying another year in those lowest grades will fix problems later on then that is when we use retention. Not in ninth grade after the battle has been lost.

The key is fixing the problems at age four through seven. Hold parents accountable to see that they do what they need to do to see that their child succeed. That is the time to get serious with the parents that don't cooperate and take serously their role as parents.

Post is long so I'll just brush over some of the things that parents could be required to do as early as age 4-7 but can also be done at any grade.

1. Require the parent to miss work and sit with their child all day who won't behave. That really works at high school. Students don't want a parent with them all day taking them to the door of the restroom when they need to go, accompany them to the water fountain, be there for EVERY conversation their child is having with other students. It is amazing how fast students will change their behavior. And it is amazing how soon parents really want to help their child succeed in school.

2. Workshops and such that some parents need in order to be good parents should be provided free with even free child care through sixth grade. We have to train some parents.

ABOUT THAT DRESS. It is amazing how much easier it is to stitch just a few stitches early on than wait until the entire him has to be restitched. Same with our children. We know which ones are going to be drop outs and have problem when they are five. Why are we waiting until they are 16-19 to do something about it?

How do we pay for this? We have the highest rate of incarceration in the entire developed world. I've read that it cost upwards of $50,000 per prisoner including all hidden costs. All that money could better be spent on deveoping model citizens at age four.

Age four. Yes. Our job as educators is to make the student successful right now, now some years down the line or when they grow up. Patterns start young. If the pattern at age is success we have hope for the future. If the pattern is failure from age four to age seven the future does not look bright at all for that student. There are exceptions but generally this is true.

 

[marleyisalegend]

thankyou freddie for the most well-written post in this thread. it's simply silly for people to assume that the only learning happens between 8am and 2pm. parents HAVE to take a proactive role in their children's education because of the mountain of benefits (structure, discipline, technical knowledge, etc..). obviously some parents do the best they can to no avail, that's not their fault. but we're ignoring parents who have little to no involvement in their child's education. i'd bet the barn that most parents don't even know how many kids are in their child's class. your child may be in an over-crowded classroom receiving no extra help. your child may be in the classroom of a convicted sex offender. it's blind to simply stick your kid on a bus and hope that when they come home they're well educated. discipline and importance of education should be stressed at home more-so than at school because that's where the child's roots are, at home. at the same time, the fact that the school system is in the dismay that it's in is also partly because of lack of parental involvement. do you know the teacher you're sending your child of too? do you know their bus driver? do you know what they're learning and if they're learning it.it's too easy to put all the responsibility on the teacher. if parents start young like freddie said, clamping down on the early years, there's a greater chance of success than waiting til the child is 19 and can't read or write. what i'm asking is what level of parental involvement is necessary, and at what point do we say "you're not doing enough to ensure your child's education?"