Finland School Shooting

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by ital8, Nov 7, 2007.

  1. ital8

    ital8 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Wow!! I just read about a school shooting that happened in Finland. Unfortunately, eight people were murdered. This is tragic, not only because of the amount of people who were killed, but for the fact that gun violence is very rare in this Nordic country. This just goes to show that it is not only in America where school shootings can occur. Is it just me or are random acts of violence more prevelant today than ever?

    School shooter kills 8, self in Finland - Yahoo! News
     
  2. B_Think_Kink

    B_Think_Kink New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    10,742
    Likes Received:
    17
    Gender:
    Female
    Yikes, that's totally tragic.
     
  3. SpoiledPrincess

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,167
    Likes Received:
    29
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    england
    Yes they are more frequent, people are detached from society.
     
  4. agnslz

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,778
    Likes Received:
    14
    I don't think they are any more prevalent today, I just think the saturated media coverage makes it seem that way.
     
  5. Principessa

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    19,494
    Likes Received:
    28
    Gender:
    Female
    Interesting, for some other things that may be true; but you are 110% wrong. There are more school shootings now than there were 60 years ago.


     
  6. agnslz

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,778
    Likes Received:
    14
    Yes, but he said "random acts of violence" not just school shootings.
     
  7. dong20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The grey country
    Finland has the third highest per capita firearms ownership in the world (about 55%), after Yemen and the US - yet a 'comparatively' per capita criminal firearms useage rate all the while having perhaps the highest per capita homicide rate in Western Europe.

    Here beginneth the boring stats:

    About 15% of Homicides in Finland are firearms related (within an overall homicide rate of 2.8 per 100,000) equating to a rate of 0.42 per 100,000. In the US the figures (for 2005) were 3.8 per 100,000 within a firearms Homicde usage rate of nearly 70%).

    In the UK, the Firearms homicide rate was 0.15 (2002) per 100,000 with an overall firearms used in Homicide useage rate of 8.5% (2004/5).

    Here endeth the boring stats....!

    Thus, it would appear that while Finns are quite eager to kill one another, they prefer to get more hands on when doing so compared with those in the US who it would appear prefer to keep their killing at at distance while us here in the UK are evidently even more hands on than the Finns.

    Also, I read this incident was the first of it's kind in Finland. I hope it's the last, though sadly I doubt that will be the case. The killer had implied that this was in the offing by posting provocative videos on You Tube only hours before.

    This is an interesting piece:

    'Revolution. Smash everything'. Then eight were killed by student gunman | Schools special reports | EducationGuardian.co.uk

    No doubt this will ignite another staunch defence of the right to bear arms and a flurry of stats proving that guns don't kill, people do.
     
  8. odd_fish_9

    odd_fish_9 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    yonder
    "Western" Europe? A capricious qualification. Compare Finland to nearby Estonia, where both homicide and firearm homicide rates are nearly ten times higher.

    The Finnish firearm suicide rate is nearly the same as that of Switzerland, which has a somewhat higher firearm "possession" rate (although the Swiss firearm "ownership" rate is not particular high, as so many of the guns in Switzerland are government issue, rather than private purchases).
     
  9. dong20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The grey country
    Yes it is isn't it. Perhaps because Estonia wasn't generally considered Western in a political sense, even though it may be in a geographical one - a mere 90 minute jetfoil ride last time I made the trip. It's not an arbitrary distinction, neither was it mine. You're right though that the definition could stand clarification.

    I wasn't talking about suicide, although admittedly there was one involved here. If (as you admit) the Swiss figures are not comparable, why mention them? The reason I referred to ownership was for a reason, because it implies desire for ownership rather than mere possesion which may not.
     
  10. odd_fish_9

    odd_fish_9 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    yonder
    Because it's a standard trick of the gun-control crowd. If one wants to "prove" that the homicide rate in the US is grotesquely high, one has to find a way to exclude countries like Mexico and Russia. To leave out Mexico, quote figures for the "developed" world. To leave out Russia, work "western" in there somehow. And to try to correlate the presence of guns with the homicide rate, it's necessary to exclude countries awash with guns, like Israel and Switzerland - hence the routine obfuscation between "possession" and "ownership".

    In the statistics wars, the Swiss figures are relevant. The guns are there (even better, most of them are machine guns), they shoot real bullets (lots of real bullets) - the rationale for excluding them from international comparisons seems slim.
     
  11. dong20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The grey country
    No tricks and I've better ways to spend my time than in a pissing contest over gun ownership stats. I merely cited stats for Finland, the US and the UK to illustrate that (in the case of Finland) high firearms ownership need not necessarily lead to high firearms homicide rates. But that in the US it tends to whereas in Finland it tends not to.

    One can draw whatever infrerences one chooses to support whatever agenda one has. The statistics show more people in the US use firearms to kill (as a % of all homicides) than they do in Finland, for the Finnish firearm ownership rate.

    The causes for that disparity will doubtless be many and varied. Mexico and Switzerland are not relevant other than to make the point you want or to extend the comparative analysis that having guns doesn't necessarily lead to high homicide rates. I don't disagree that Mexico's homicide rate is higher than the US, it's three times higher. Why not include Russia, it's not far of twice that of Mexico. I think you missed my point, by some considerable margin.

    I didn't state my position, you inferred it. As it happens, you're broadly correct - I'm opposed to private gun owneship as a matter of principle, and believe that in the US a gun 'culture' is a major factor in high rates of firearms homicides. If I have a closed mind to other considerations, otherwise I would have chosen a better example nation than Finland which tends to support your postition (just in case you missed it), wouldn't I?

    I try to keep an open mind and will consider that many factors may be at play when it comes to the different national relationships between gun ownership, gun control legislation and gun crime. Do you have an open mind on that issue? I ask because it doesn't sound much like it.

    Muddying the waters by including other (quite plainly) homicidal nations is a common diversionary agument used by the pro gun lobby.:rolleyes:

    Oh yes, on the stats; if you dispute their accuracy fine, in which case may I suggest you provide alternatives.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted