Franternities are not elitist, they are selectived. They have nothing at all to do with classical Greek civilization. As YourAvgGuy has pointed out they do engage in altruistic service, but this varies from society to society. It is a peculiarly American phenomenon, at first fraternities were scholarly communities of undergraduates but they were soon hijacked by the offspring of meritocrats as a counterpoint to the democracy they enjoyed - they discriminated on grounds of money and race. Like all power groups they fell in line with prevailing ethics to survive. When the middle class students began to emulate them they became no more than drinking clubs for rather immature first generation boys (the word men can not properly be allocated them) and this is till what many are. Like bower birds their raison d'etre is to attract pretty girls to the frat house. Rampant sex is a myth of their own creation. That black men or gay men would want to emulate this kind of fraternity is open to debate. Of course their are true fraternities of excellent pedigree with a reputation for public service, scholarly pursuit, who's members go on to often do well in business and professional life because of the ties they made at university. A crow may call itself an eagle but we know it isn't really. I find it understandable but no less amusing that a gay guy would fantasize about what goes on in a fraternity house. My year in an American university fraternity was interesting, but do recall watching there a porno entitle "Bad Girls Dormitory" so even intelligent well adjusted young men have their failings, but the fun was watching it together. And no there was no jerking or stuff like that. Sorry!
- Wrat,
All the fraternaty guys I know are really ordinary guys. I would have been in my father's fraternaty except that I had just gotten out of the military when I went to college and I'd had enough of living in a structured environment. It would probably have done me a lot of good. The transition to an academic lifestyle was not easy for me. I would have learned better study habits sooner. I would have had a peer group to compete with. I would have had a support group when my mother got cancer and I would have had an environment that reinforced the importance of good grades. I might not have suffered from such terrible depression when my brother got sick and I might have graduated on time. Living in a structured environment would have been a huge advantage for a person like myself. It's much more than just keeping guys from being lonely.
This is aimed at no one in particular, just my two cents.
I belonged to a huge fraternity at my university - over 140 actives and pledges each year during my four years at school. Fraternities are selective as there are more people wanting to join than the houses can hold physically. Some members do live outside of the house, but that was discouraged. The whole point is living together.
Elitish? Maybe, but practically every student group on campus in some way selects its members, either through a bid system (like fraternities) or social/political ideology or by social pressure. The whole "pay for friends" is a tiresome charge. As if no other social group makes its members pay to join and remain active. The scholarship athletes at my university (major midwest football powerhouse with many national championships) used to level that charge at us, but then scholarship athletes are hardly ones to talk -- they were selected on the basis of being able to run, jump or whatever better than the average person. They get paid (scholarships) to be part of a select group.
Our pledges worked very hard to join - study halls, social projects, daily responsibilities and yes, learning about our history and where we, as an organization, came from. Many pledges and members chose to leave and some were asked to leave, but by in large, those that pledged became members if they did what was asked of them, had a good attitude and made grades that were modestly difficult to achieve.
No doubt we had parties. Many huge and raging parties. Booze was everywhere, but not many drugs. Socializing was a key part of the experience. We weren't trying to be perfect scholars, nor were we trying to be like Animal House. A major organized party for a given semester might run $10-12k and have 500 plus attendees. But for all of the beer and fun, the whole experience comes down to learning how to live with, understand and thrive within a membership of different personalities, interests and viewpoints. In other words, good training for the corporate world or just the world in general. In no way is it perfect, but for those that want the experience, it can be rewarding. That said, I know there were plenty of people who felt wronged by fraternities and I can't and won't attempt to tell them to feel otherwise.
However, snobbery and selectivism exist in every corner of a university. Major programs of study within a university are highly selective as those colleges only select those that they think could add to and thrive within their course of study. A major university in my state only accepts the top 1-2% of students for their business or pre-law school. Having social organizations doing the same does not seem so wildly out of place.
Now, because my fraternity had an enormous house on campus and group showers, the crowd seems to want to know about the boys and what went on. Sex of any kind wasn't as in the open as everyone might fantasize about. We had private rooms and most sex took place like it would in a normal world - behind closed doors and between consenting adults. Plenty of talk though and many walls weren't exactly sound proofed.
The whole idea of circle jerks and gay sexual hazing is not within any experience I've had or heard of within the context of a major fraternity. I had high school friends in other major fraternities and they all said the same thing. This whole sexual fantasy about fraternities is just that, a fantasy. There may be fraternities that have substantial gay membership, but not where I went to school. If anything, social fraternities, at least in the 80s, were as homophobic as other parts of society, maybe more in that so many boys lived, worked and slept in close proximity. Could it be homo-erotic though to live there...hell yes. But no one and I mean no one wanted to be labeled or "outed" in those days. We live in a different world now and its for the better.
Now, I will say that while I'm entirely normal in my own endownments, a pledge brother of mine (i.e. joined in same year) had the largest penis I've ever seen. He was as skinny as a rail and his dick limp was about 6 inches and fairly impressive. He had balls like a billy goat and as a result wasn't real excited about people watching him shower. Erect this boy was about 9 inches and erect wasn't hard like mine...it was more like a soft large sausage. He used to shower early in the morning or late at night, because as he put it, it gets tiresome having people make comments or point or stare or whatever else people do when they are in the presence of a big penis. Believe me, I liked looking at it too because all guys at some level are size queens. But I respected my friend's desire to be seen as something other than a large set of genitals.
Not to be outdone, he had two other brothers who were also members and they were as hung as he was. One morning I saw one exiting his room and his roommate pulled off his towel. To this day I can recall gasping at the sight -- his dick was like a rope that hung to his knees. Both brothers talked about how it got crazy for them at parties when they'd be with a girl and she'd put her hand on their crotch and *surprise* an enormous penis would be her reward.
By in large though, the showers were a parade of normalcy. Everyone seemed to have about the same sized dick, the same sized balls, etc. There were some times when we'd compare and guess what? Most of us were between 5.5 and 6.5 inches erect. After a while, no one bothered to "look" at you unless you woke up early with a hardon and had to quickly shower to make the bus to campus.
Perhaps in today's world, where experimentation with sex is more accepted or even expected, the fraternity experience might be different.
So, to bring this rambling opus to an end, let me summarize -- the gay fantasy about fraternities is 99.9% a fantasy. Most fraternities are surprisingly mundane and have normal people as members and sex, while happening all the time, was discrete and private. No cirlce jerks, no group sex, no gang bangs, just plenty of good old solo masturbation, sex with girlfriends and floozies and plently of mindless bragging about escapades that only happened in the mind of the speaker. In other words, boys were being boys.
Cheers.
I belonged to a huge fraternity at my university - over 140 actives and pledges each year during my four years at school. Fraternities are selective as there are more people wanting to join than the houses can hold physically. Some members do live outside of the house, but that was discouraged. The whole point is living together.
Elitish? Maybe, but practically every student group on campus in some way selects its members, either through a bid system (like fraternities) or social/political ideology or by social pressure. The whole "pay for friends" is a tiresome charge. As if no other social group makes its members pay to join and remain active. The scholarship athletes at my university (major midwest football powerhouse with many national championships) used to level that charge at us, but then scholarship athletes are hardly ones to talk -- they were selected on the basis of being able to run, jump or whatever better than the average person. They get paid (scholarships) to be part of a select group.
Our pledges worked very hard to join - study halls, social projects, daily responsibilities and yes, learning about our history and where we, as an organization, came from. Many pledges and members chose to leave and some were asked to leave, but by in large, those that pledged became members if they did what was asked of them, had a good attitude and made grades that were modestly difficult to achieve.
No doubt we had parties. Many huge and raging parties. Booze was everywhere, but not many drugs. Socializing was a key part of the experience. We weren't trying to be perfect scholars, nor were we trying to be like Animal House. A major organized party for a given semester might run $10-12k and have 500 plus attendees. But for all of the beer and fun, the whole experience comes down to learning how to live with, understand and thrive within a membership of different personalities, interests and viewpoints. In other words, good training for the corporate world or just the world in general. In no way is it perfect, but for those that want the experience, it can be rewarding. That said, I know there were plenty of people who felt wronged by fraternities and I can't and won't attempt to tell them to feel otherwise.
However, snobbery and selectivism exist in every corner of a university. Major programs of study within a university are highly selective as those colleges only select those that they think could add to and thrive within their course of study. A major university in my state only accepts the top 1-2% of students for their business or pre-law school. Having social organizations doing the same does not seem so wildly out of place.
Now, because my fraternity had an enormous house on campus and group showers, the crowd seems to want to know about the boys and what went on. Sex of any kind wasn't as in the open as everyone might fantasize about. We had private rooms and most sex took place like it would in a normal world - behind closed doors and between consenting adults. Plenty of talk though and many walls weren't exactly sound proofed.
The whole idea of circle jerks and gay sexual hazing is not within any experience I've had or heard of within the context of a major fraternity. I had high school friends in other major fraternities and they all said the same thing. This whole sexual fantasy about fraternities is just that, a fantasy. There may be fraternities that have substantial gay membership, but not where I went to school. If anything, social fraternities, at least in the 80s, were as homophobic as other parts of society, maybe more in that so many boys lived, worked and slept in close proximity. Could it be homo-erotic though to live there...hell yes. But no one and I mean no one wanted to be labeled or "outed" in those days. We live in a different world now and its for the better.
Now, I will say that while I'm entirely normal in my own endownments, a pledge brother of mine (i.e. joined in same year) had the largest penis I've ever seen. He was as skinny as a rail and his dick limp was about 6 inches and fairly impressive. He had balls like a billy goat and as a result wasn't real excited about people watching him shower. Erect this boy was about 9 inches and erect wasn't hard like mine...it was more like a soft large sausage. He used to shower early in the morning or late at night, because as he put it, it gets tiresome having people make comments or point or stare or whatever else people do when they are in the presence of a big penis. Believe me, I liked looking at it too because all guys at some level are size queens. But I respected my friend's desire to be seen as something other than a large set of genitals.
Not to be outdone, he had two other brothers who were also members and they were as hung as he was. One morning I saw one exiting his room and his roommate pulled off his towel. To this day I can recall gasping at the sight -- his dick was like a rope that hung to his knees. Both brothers talked about how it got crazy for them at parties when they'd be with a girl and she'd put her hand on their crotch and *surprise* an enormous penis would be her reward.
By in large though, the showers were a parade of normalcy. Everyone seemed to have about the same sized dick, the same sized balls, etc. There were some times when we'd compare and guess what? Most of us were between 5.5 and 6.5 inches erect. After a while, no one bothered to "look" at you unless you woke up early with a hardon and had to quickly shower to make the bus to campus.
Perhaps in today's world, where experimentation with sex is more accepted or even expected, the fraternity experience might be different.
So, to bring this rambling opus to an end, let me summarize -- the gay fantasy about fraternities is 99.9% a fantasy. Most fraternities are surprisingly mundane and have normal people as members and sex, while happening all the time, was discrete and private. No cirlce jerks, no group sex, no gang bangs, just plenty of good old solo masturbation, sex with girlfriends and floozies and plently of mindless bragging about escapades that only happened in the mind of the speaker. In other words, boys were being boys.
Cheers.
Well said, and the only way it diverges from my own experience would be the group sex. There was tag teaming and group action going on all over the place. I was well-known to be down for anything and I was constantly shocked while hearing about the threeway hookups after they happened. Seemed like everyone had at least one to talk about.
Thanks for responding It's nice to hear what others who are in frats have to say. On the other hand, while I admit to never having been in a frat, I don't think membership in a frat -- at least in my opinion -- is true brotherhood, because I don't see "brotherhood" as being an institionally issued honor. I have men in my life that I consider my brothers, and I chose them MYSELF. I didn't have to go through any exam to gain them. I didn't put them through any exam. We didn't have to go before a board. And we didn't have to do any pledging, etc. In my opinion, such institutionally issued dogmas are counter to what I consider brotherhood to be. Look at the most basic form of brotherhood, biological brotherhood. No one who has a biological brother chose that brother. It just happened. For me, this is the way it was with the brothers in my life. I didn't choose them. It just happened.
As to the other comments by other people that current frats have nothing to do with ancient Greece, well, I suppose that is the case if we forget the fact that most of them actually have GREEK names such as Alpha Kappa Lambda, etc. Also, aren't there "Toga nights" which are largely based on Ancient Greece?
I'm glad to hear directly from some members of this forum what it is like to be in a frat. But I have to be honest and say that from what I hear I don't think it is attractive and I'm actually glad I started this thread because I see now that I wouldn't have fit in at a frat house. The idea of an institutionally issued brother "for life" sounds a bit disturbing for me, akin to a gang (Crips, Bloods, etc.) though obviously a much more upscale version.
According to Wikipedia, most frats are based on the Masonic rituals. Reading this made me remember that I was actually a member of a frat, though not a college frat. I was a member of a fraternity of mystical spirituality, one loosely related to the Masons, actually. I eventually left because I didn't like the idea of elitism. I didn't like the idea that I was supposed to like another person simply because he was a member of the same group as me. I'd rather relate to the individual than to his status within an organization.
Thanks, though, for all your answers. Frats wouldn't work for me, but it's good to know that they work for many of you.
As to the other comments by other people that current frats have nothing to do with ancient Greece, well, I suppose that is the case if we forget the fact that most of them actually have GREEK names such as Alpha Kappa Lambda, etc. Also, aren't there "Toga nights" which are largely based on Ancient Greece?
I'm glad to hear directly from some members of this forum what it is like to be in a frat. But I have to be honest and say that from what I hear I don't think it is attractive and I'm actually glad I started this thread because I see now that I wouldn't have fit in at a frat house. The idea of an institutionally issued brother "for life" sounds a bit disturbing for me, akin to a gang (Crips, Bloods, etc.) though obviously a much more upscale version.
According to Wikipedia, most frats are based on the Masonic rituals. Reading this made me remember that I was actually a member of a frat, though not a college frat. I was a member of a fraternity of mystical spirituality, one loosely related to the Masons, actually. I eventually left because I didn't like the idea of elitism. I didn't like the idea that I was supposed to like another person simply because he was a member of the same group as me. I'd rather relate to the individual than to his status within an organization.
Thanks, though, for all your answers. Frats wouldn't work for me, but it's good to know that they work for many of you.
In my experience though, the brotherhood for life thing, while nice in theory doesn't necessarily apply to everyone in the chapter. I had brothers I would take a bullet for and brothers I would push in front of a bus. Some of my friends became solidified because I shared this experience with them and others are strong for other reasons. The tests and trials are a part of membership but they aren't prereqs for having a connection with someone. They two are fairly exclusive.
This is interesting. This is another topic I want to discuss and may start a thread about. Something I've noticed over the last decade is the increased closeness of men in straight porn videos. I started becoming aware of porn back in the early 1990s. Back then, a gangbang video consisted of a group of men standing in line while one took turns with the woman, then the new guy stepped up. Round and round. As the 90s progressed, eventually there were five guys doing the woman at the same time. A penis in the vagina, anus, mouth, and hands. Then there came the "double fucking," which is two penises in the vagina at once. And, of course, there are the double blow jobs where two or more guys stick their dicks in the woman's mouth. Anyway, the thing that interests me about this is that a generation or so ago this would probably be considered a little gay or bisexual, which is why this particular guy (quoted below) said he and his frat brother didn't want others to know what they had done, allow their penises to touch. But now, perfectly straight men do this.
In fact, I corresponded with porn star Erik Everhard about this topic. Erik Everhard has been in a lot of gangbang videos, mostly the Gangbang Girl. Erik said, "As long as I know the other guy is straight then it's okay with me." This goes back to what I mentioned earlier about the irony being that if one has an established straight reputation then one can get away with behavior that might otherwise be seen as gay or bisexual in nature.
But this is a topic for another thread. I'll start it later.....
In fact, I corresponded with porn star Erik Everhard about this topic. Erik Everhard has been in a lot of gangbang videos, mostly the Gangbang Girl. Erik said, "As long as I know the other guy is straight then it's okay with me." This goes back to what I mentioned earlier about the irony being that if one has an established straight reputation then one can get away with behavior that might otherwise be seen as gay or bisexual in nature.
But this is a topic for another thread. I'll start it later.....
Okay, that makes sense. I think that in some ways it is indeed necessary to have a structured environment in order to bond with people, and apparently frats offer that. I suppose that, being the individualist I am, I am scared by the idea of a frat brainwashing people into thinking that others are their "brothers" simply because they passed a review board. Brotherhood, in my mind, goes much deeper than that.
I was an officer in my fraternity, and lived in-house for a few years. There were some behind-closed-doors things happening, but the only overtly gay behaviour was really just drunken behaviour that was interpreted as being gay (semi-nude drunken wrestling, streaking, guys flashing guys, drunken middle-of-the-night masterbating in the communal shower [yeah, THAT'S not gonna draw any attention, drunk-boy], etc.).
Yeah. Sounds like a watered down version of the military. Typically, it is only the children of the middle class or wealthy who go into frats, because only they can afford it. Middle class and wealthy don't send their children to the military where they are trained to think in terms of "what is best for the group," so they get that training in the fraternities.
It sounds like social engineering, which is something I'm not interested in. Thought rich kids, and middle class kids have it easier, and though being in a frat is most likely a good way to network and establish your future, I am glad I never joined one because I wouldn't want to sacrifice my individuality.
For quite some time I've been meaning to watch this A&E documentary:
Amazon.com: FRAT BOYS: DVD
It sounds like social engineering, which is something I'm not interested in. Thought rich kids, and middle class kids have it easier, and though being in a frat is most likely a good way to network and establish your future, I am glad I never joined one because I wouldn't want to sacrifice my individuality.
For quite some time I've been meaning to watch this A&E documentary:
Amazon.com: FRAT BOYS: DVD
NIMBUS
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Which is, I think, why such things never established themselves in the UK education system. We Brits generally pride ourselves on our individuality, certainly above the age of about 17/18 (below that it's more common to see kids all trying to dress the same, like the same music etc.) it becomes a bit of a competition to be deliberately perverse and go your own way, be it in regard to clothing, hair style and colour, tattoos or piercings, musical taste etc.
From what I know about brits, they tend to be more reserved than Americans as well, which may be another reason frats never took off there. Frats emphasize boisterous outgoing behavior, I think. I don't think that's as emphasized in British culture, is it?
Uh, no, they don't. Guys hanging out, as a group of guys, emphasize that behaviour. Don't read so much into frats. In the end, they're like any other club, or group. They also have a huge range, from the stereotypical "animal house", to Christian houses with nightly Bible studies, and at my school, there were even two farming houses. To say, "All frats...", is just an entirely ridiculous statement, showing ignorance on the subject. It's about the same as saying, "All guys..."
Uh, no, guys hanging out in groups do not always emphasize outgoing, boisterous behavior. Some of my happiest memories of times I spent in Japan. Hanging out with other guys, all Japanese, no one really got boisterous. In some cultures it is considered rude and uncivilized to be noisy. Japan is one of them. My English friend told me that England and Japan are culturally similar this way, both are somewhat reserved. My friend told me that Germany and the United States are more culturally similar in that they encourage outgoing, expressive behavior.
I've read that this is one reason beer is legal in the US and yet pot isn't. There's the theory that because it encourages outgoing behavior beer is legal because it is culturally acceptable. But marijuana encourages people to be introspective, which is suspect in a culture that prefers outgoing behavior. Alcohol causes thousands of deaths per year, marijuana none. Yet which is illegal and which isn't?
In Asia, it is respected to be quiet and introspective. In the US it isn't. Ever heard that saying, "It's always the quiet guy." That's a foreign concept in most of Asia. In most Asian countries people would be suspicious of the outgoing and loud person, like the way frat boys often behave.
I've read that this is one reason beer is legal in the US and yet pot isn't. There's the theory that because it encourages outgoing behavior beer is legal because it is culturally acceptable. But marijuana encourages people to be introspective, which is suspect in a culture that prefers outgoing behavior. Alcohol causes thousands of deaths per year, marijuana none. Yet which is illegal and which isn't?
In Asia, it is respected to be quiet and introspective. In the US it isn't. Ever heard that saying, "It's always the quiet guy." That's a foreign concept in most of Asia. In most Asian countries people would be suspicious of the outgoing and loud person, like the way frat boys often behave.
Chest Rockwell
Experimental Member
this phenomenon also existed within the new york city clubbing community amongst the italian population.
the men were constantly trying to outdo one another with regards to musculature. guys would regularly compliment me on my abs and my physique.
in fact, it seemed as though they were more preoccupied by male appearance than they were by the females.
this sorta thing reminds me of many of michelangelo's paintings. even the female form looked like a man's, because the male form was the most revered.
--CR
the men were constantly trying to outdo one another with regards to musculature. guys would regularly compliment me on my abs and my physique.
in fact, it seemed as though they were more preoccupied by male appearance than they were by the females.
this sorta thing reminds me of many of michelangelo's paintings. even the female form looked like a man's, because the male form was the most revered.
--CR
Chest Rockwell
Experimental Member
the military is another environment where this happens.
especially in combat.
--CR
especially in combat.
--CR
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