Free speech and music...there is line? Where?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Gisella, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. Gisella

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    For exemple...the one below (came to my knowlegde days after a friend sent me Ramstein Pussy song clip etc to some another controversial group also)..I do not understand German or into European many styles rock trends..but if I heard this music without seeing the images I would dance without think etc.. but that clip has many known nazy symbols going and it is militaristic also..well...it makes me think that they might singing some propaganda..but not so explicit because they are allowed to show it etc..

    YouTube - Tanz Mit Laibach


    If I understand right..the free speech allows much controversies and criticism but takes a lot of it for a particular group be banned..if they commit a crime or something like that?

    What is the difference between US free speech and European frees speeches? Thanks..I am just curious and desiring to learn a bit and if people/groups are lawful hiding behind free speeach to spread hate and whatever propagandas they embrace?:confused:
     
  2. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    Free speech is a very important part of American life, and although I'm not familiar with every single country's difference in Europe, some are very different.

    Not on the subject of music, but Austria once elected a former Wehrmacht officer, Kurt Waldheim as President of the nation. There's some controversy over whether or not he took part in massacres, although he said he didn't, despite evidence of it happening right near his office. He was also the Secretary General of the UN prior his Presidency.

    Why do I mention this? Well Austrian authorities jailed a man for speaking his mind about the Holocaust, in that he said it never happened among other anti-semitic and racist things. Was his statement reprehensible? Absolutely, but did he deserve to be thrown in jail for it? I don't believe so. However that's not the United States, so many of the intricacies are things I'm not familiar with.

    Italy also had an issue with the Vatican when a well known comedienne said Ratzinger would go to hell and be taken advantage of by the very gays he condemned. The Vatican tried to force Italian officials into arresting the woman for it, but backed down when they realized they couldn't.


    That being said, onto music.

    In the US Free Speech is there to protect all speech (with exceptions for libel and speech that leads to imminent violence among others) especially the speech we don't like. The reason for this is, if you can say "Well that offends me, I want it banned" then it leads the way to banning everything that offends someone.

    I personally despise censorship of the arts, including "swear words". An artist should be allowed to express their creativity regardless of how they do it. In the US "Cop Killer" by Body Count, or "Fuck The Police" by the NWA were huge controversies when they came out.

    People saw those songs as incitements to violence, when really it was an angry protest of law enforcement's treatment of blacks and others, especially with NWA's song. Music also came under fire with metal(my personal favorite) when they blamed Ozzy Osbourne for a supposed backwards lyric "Shoot Shoot Shoot" in one of his songs for the suicide of a kid who listened to him.

    I give people more credit than believing a lyric can cause them to do something violent, that argument to me is utter nonsense. People tend to blame the arts (including video games) for violence, which is ludicrous honestly.

    I'll stop rambling now, but it's an issue I hold as very important, so I usually get very passionate about it.

    To add, here's the English translation of that song by Rammstein I found:

    http://www.lyricsbox.com/laibach-lyrics-tanz-mit-laibach-english-q87zmvz.html

    Rammstein tends to push the boundaries, and that song sounds more like a play on war, dictatorship and actually seems to call people together for a non-violent reason. As I don't speak German, and Rammstein's lyrics tend to be a little confusing I could be wrong though:

    "We all are possessed
    we all are damned
    we all are crucified
    we all are broken
    by attractive technology
    by economics of time
    by quality of life
    and the philosophy of war"
     
    #2 MercyfulFate, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
  3. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    There's more to it than that.

    The song isn't by Rammstein. It's by a group named Laibach and they're Yugoslavian/Slovenian, not German though they sing in German. You can read their manifesto at their home page to give you an idea of what they're like. America has a difficult time with political music and this is no different.

    Here are the fully lyrics translated into English:

    We are all possessed
    We are all cursed
    We are all crucified
    And we are all broken

    By attractive technology
    By time-economy
    By quality of life
    And war philosophy

    One, two, three, four
    Brotherhood, come dance with me
    One, two, three, four
    I give you both of my hands

    One, two, three, four
    My friends, dance with me
    One, two, three, four
    Round and round, it's not difficult

    We're dancing with Ado Hynkel
    Benzino Napoloni
    We're dancing with Schicklgruber
    And we're dancing with Maitreya

    With totalitarianism
    And with democracy
    We're dancing with fascism
    And red anarchy

    One, two, three, four
    Comrade, come dance with me
    One, two, three, four
    I give you both of my hands

    One, two, three, four
    German folk, come dance with me
    One, two, three, four
    Round and round, it's not difficult

    We're dancing and we're jumping
    We're hopping and we're singing
    We're falling and rising
    We're giving or taking

    American friends
    And German comrades
    We're dancing well together
    We're dancing to Baghdad

    One, two, three, four
    Brotherhood, come dance with me
    One, two, three, four
    I give you both of my hands

    One, two, three, four
    My friends, dance with me
    One, two, three, four
    Round and round, it's not difficult

    One, two, three, four!



    There's a good explanation of the song at this website and it largely seems correct to me though I certainly can't profess to know idiomatic German phrases in the least. German's an easy language to learn, but next to impossible to master unless you speak it as a native. Compound words are created on the fly and whole language is stuffed full of double entendres and idiomatic phrases with many regional variations. To "get" what someone means in German is not the easiest thing to do though oddly enough English is one of the few languages that is able to more precisely translate it.

    The earlier names mentioned in the song, Hynkel and Napoloni, are characters from Chaplin's great parody of Nazism, The Great Dictator. The cross symbol used in the video is based upon that used in The Great Dictator as well. Germany has very strict laws about the display of Nazi symbols yet I don't think that was necessarily Laibach's intention here as it's far more ironic (and German) to refer to The Great Dictator instead. Everybody knows what they mean and Chaplin skewered Hitler far better than any serious pundit of the day. The reference highlights the foolishness of Germany following the US into war with Iraq and other international cooperation policies.

    Laibach is also not lost in focusing on the hypocrisy of the US purporting to support democracy while actually supporting dictatorships and repressive regimes when it suits US interests.
     
    #3 jason_els, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
  4. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    Thanks jason for clearing it up that it's not originally by them.
     
  5. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Oops! Forgot to mention. Good Wikipedia article as well which goes to explain their method a little further. Being that Americans are wholly uneducated in modern art, political theory, and European history, we have a difficult time understanding performance art as political statement.
     
  6. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    No problem. I'm really glad Gisella started this thread. I knew a little about them from a friend of mine studying modern German history in Germany, but didn't know their story much at all.

    They actually did a piece on the United States entitled The Divided States of America. It's ostensibly about a tour they did in 2004 but it's really about how the American media system creates and fosters divisions while keeping the same people in power regardless of which side is in control of the government.

    I find it fascinating, informative, and educational to see how those outside our system see us.
     
  7. Gisella

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    Guys thank you soooooo much for taking the time to really explain to me and even doing extra homework for me..many times because I have not a clue about basic stuff people knows because higher education/or other/etc to begin with..I would need extra help to get there to really understand.

    You soooo very precious in your teaching qualities. I really appreciate that, xoxo.
     
  8. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    They're absolutely right too, it's disgusting how many people don't think, and basically just parrot what's told to them. I've encountered that half a dozen times now in just the Politics section. I'm against Carbon credits and suddenly I want to destroy the environment? Someone actually said "You're either right wing or left wing, which is it?" as if those are the only choices that exist.

    It makes my head hurt.
     
  9. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    This thread actually probably belongs in the politics section given the subject.

    I agree with you though. I'm not for carbon credits either. I think there are better ways to improve the environment which are less costly and more effective. I tend to ignore the attempts to pigeonhole as they don't add anything to a discussion.
     
  10. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    Yeah it does, but maybe keeping it from there will prevent the rabble rousing.
     
  11. MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

    MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK Well-Known Member

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    welcome back thee, Gisella.:kiss:
     
  12. Gisella

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    Hey beautiful! :kiss:

    wow..she still bouncing her breasts friends...hmmmm...she's good!:biggrin1:
     
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