Free will vs determinism

[ruffboy]

Ha , Ha that's hilarious . You claim that I'm wrong but you don't give a single argument defending your view.

W R O N G

done
nuff said
over

 

[Axcess]

W R O N G

done
nuff said
over

Where are the arguments ? You could say that I'm wrong as many times as you want but it doesn't mean anything without arguments .
NUFF SAID.

 

[ruffboy]

Where are the arguments ? You could say that I'm wrong as many times as you want but it doesn't mean anything without arguments .
NUFF SAID.

mine is a childlike faith, i know in my heart what i believe is true and i need no empirical evidence to substantiate it as such, not unlike any other true religious believer

;-p

 

[Calboner]

Where are the arguments ? You could say that I'm wrong as many times as you want but it doesn't mean anything without arguments .

Look at sk_bum's avatar.

 

[BigDallasDick8x6]

I'm disappointed with the response of this thread by free will believers . They vote for it in the poll but not a single of them defend their point of view with good arguments . Atleast the members that believe in combination of both ( that is called compatibilism ) give valid arguments .

I voted in the poll but didn't chime in because I know very little about Determinism. Believe it or not, if I don't know anything about a subject, I try to STFU.

I could research Determinism but I'm too busy/lazy. So as a demonstration of my ignorance on the topic (you asked for the free willers opinions!) here are some questions.

Determinism holds that all destiny is pre-ordained? Or am I overstating the case? If it's pre-ordained, who ordained it? Does Determinism require a belief in an omnipotent God? If not, what force in the universe makes the decisions and enforces them?

If Determinism exists, how can we punish people who commit crimes if they couldn't help it? (I'm sure there are entire books devoted to this question.)

No need to waste your time answering if my comments are totally off-base, but this is the rationale I went though deciding how to answer. I probably shouldn't have participated in the poll since I'm not informed on the topic.

Anyway.......just a comment from one person who voted "free will" but didn't substantiate why. (Since you asked!)

 

[BigDallasDick8x6]

Anyway.......just a comment from one person who voted "free will" but didn't substantiate why.

But then again, I probably couldn't help myself. :wink: :biggrin1:

 

[Astrate]

I voted in the poll but didn't chime in because I know very little about Determinism. Believe it or not, if I don't know anything about a subject, I try to STFU.

I could research Determinism but I'm too busy/lazy. So as a demonstration of my ignorance on the topic (you asked for the free willers opinions!) here are some questions.

Determinism holds that all destiny is pre-ordained? Or am I overstating the case? If it's pre-ordained, who ordained it? Does Determinism require a belief in an omnipotent God? If not, what force in the universe makes the decisions and enforces them?

If Determinism exists, how can we punish people who commit crimes if they couldn't help it? (I'm sure there are entire books devoted to this question.)

Good questions BigDick. Determinism means that every tiny thing that happens in the Universe has a pre-existing cause and occurs in keeping with laws of nature, reliably, predictably, always.

If I drop a marble from my top window ten times and all conditions stay the same it will hit the ground at the same speed, same force, same spot and bounce away at the same angle and end up in the same place each time. This is 100% predictable.

Of course it never ends up in the same place as before because conditions do not stay the same because there are so many conditions that change with each try. My index finger maybe a little more sticky with sweat on the second go, creating a little spin, the ground could be marked by a previous impact etc etc. You might say that I cannot predict where the marble ends up. But in fact if I know all the factors, conditions and forces acting on the marble I could still predict with 100% accuracy. The unpredictability is an illusion.

So it is with human decision making. What you decide to have for lunch today is predetermined by what has gone on before, but may involve huge numbers of factors. If I knew all the relevant factors I would be able to predict your decision. That includes the fact that you wanted to prove me wrong and astonishingly decided to have broccoli.

The fact that there are so many acting factors creates the illusion that randomness is at play. But even flipping a coin gives you a predetermined answer, depending on how you held it etc. The fact that it also includes conscious thought processes, gives you the illusion that your decision is arbitrary and you are acting out of free will.

The question is how much true "control" do we have over our cognition, our conscious thought processes. We can't really tell because we are using that same cognition to check that out and even ifwe could there are some many mental factors at play that it would be useless to know.

It doesn't really matter. We are responsible for our actions so we might as well pretend we have free will. I haven't figured out why its a big deal.

 

[_avg_]

Originally Posted by _avg_
Why? Because it's 'true'? How would we know? And if we can't, why does it matter?

nope
you're wrong

DONE

What part of that is supposed to make sense?

 

[Axcess]

Good questions BigDick. Determinism means that every tiny thing that happens in the Universe has a pre-existing cause and occurs in keeping with laws of nature, reliably, predictably, always.

If I drop a marble from my top window ten times and all conditions stay the same it will hit the ground at the same speed, same force, same spot and bounce away at the same angle and end up in the same place each time. This is 100% predictable.

Of course it never ends up in the same place as before because conditions do not stay the same because there are so many conditions that change with each try. My index finger maybe a little more sticky with sweat on the second go, creating a little spin, the ground could be marked by a previous impact etc etc. You might say that I cannot predict where the marble ends up. But in fact if I know all the factors, conditions and forces acting on the marble I could still predict with 100% accuracy. The unpredictability is an illusion.

So it is with human decision making. What you decide to have for lunch today is predetermined by what has gone on before, but may involve huge numbers of factors. If I knew all the relevant factors I would be able to predict your decision. That includes the fact that you wanted to prove me wrong and astonishingly decided to have broccoli.

The fact that there are so many acting factors creates the illusion that randomness is at play. But even flipping a coin gives you a predetermined answer, depending on how you held it etc. The fact that it also includes conscious thought processes, gives you the illusion that your decision is arbitrary and you are acting out of free will.

The question is how much true "control" do we have over our cognition, our conscious thought processes. We can't really tell because we are using that same cognition to check that out and even ifwe could there are some many mental factors at play that it would be useless to know.

It doesn't really matter. We are responsible for our actions so we might as well pretend we have free will. I haven't figured out why its a big deal.

Great post. I can't say it better myself.

 

[Axcess]

I voted in the poll but didn't chime in because I know very little about Determinism. Believe it or not, if I don't know anything about a subject, I try to STFU.

I could research Determinism but I'm too busy/lazy. So as a demonstration of my ignorance on the topic (you asked for the free willers opinions!) here are some questions.

Determinism holds that all destiny is pre-ordained? Or am I overstating the case? If it's pre-ordained, who ordained it? Does Determinism require a belief in an omnipotent God? If not, what force in the universe makes the decisions and enforces them?

If Determinism exists, how can we punish people who commit crimes if they couldn't help it? (I'm sure there are entire books devoted to this question.)

No need to waste your time answering if my comments are totally off-base, but this is the rationale I went though deciding how to answer. I probably shouldn't have participated in the poll since I'm not informed on the topic.

Anyway.......just a comment from one person who voted "free will" but didn't substantiate why. (Since you asked!)

You are honest about your lack of knowledge of the determinist subject and that's great . I suspect that most people that voted for free will doesn't have enough knowledge or any at all about the subject.

 

[Axcess]

Ha , Ha sorry if my English sucks but It isn't my first language . My first language is Spanish. I hope most people here understand me in my posts.:redface:

 

[BigDallasDick8x6]

Good questions BigDick. Determinism means that every tiny thing that happens in the Universe has a pre-existing cause and occurs in keeping with laws of nature, reliably, predictably, always.

If I drop a marble from my top window ten times and all conditions stay the same it will hit the ground at the same speed, same force, same spot and bounce away at the same angle and end up in the same place each time. This is 100% predictable.

Of course it never ends up in the same place as before because conditions do not stay the same because there are so many conditions that change with each try. My index finger maybe a little more sticky with sweat on the second go, creating a little spin, the ground could be marked by a previous impact etc etc. You might say that I cannot predict where the marble ends up. But in fact if I know all the factors, conditions and forces acting on the marble I could still predict with 100% accuracy. The unpredictability is an illusion.

So it is with human decision making. What you decide to have for lunch today is predetermined by what has gone on before, but may involve huge numbers of factors. If I knew all the relevant factors I would be able to predict your decision. That includes the fact that you wanted to prove me wrong and astonishingly decided to have broccoli.

The fact that there are so many acting factors creates the illusion that randomness is at play. But even flipping a coin gives you a predetermined answer, depending on how you held it etc. The fact that it also includes conscious thought processes, gives you the illusion that your decision is arbitrary and you are acting out of free will.

The question is how much true "control" do we have over our cognition, our conscious thought processes. We can't really tell because we are using that same cognition to check that out and even ifwe could there are some many mental factors at play that it would be useless to know.

It doesn't really matter. We are responsible for our actions so we might as well pretend we have free will. I haven't figured out why its a big deal.

Wow, that is a really thoughtful and well-written explanation. Thank you for taking the time to do that. Didn't know all that. And you weren't peevish or included any sarcasm or putdowns or anything. I'm very impressed.

 

[BigDallasDick8x6]

Ha , Ha sorry if my English sucks but It isn't my first language . My first language is Spanish. I hope most people here understand me in my posts.:redface:

It's as good as posts I see from most English speakers! You're doing fine.

 

[ruffboy]

Look at sk_bum's avatar.

HA!

calboner gets it:biggrin1:

would you two argumentative types like your goats back?

 

[ruffboy]

You are honest about your lack of knowledge of the determinist subject and that's great . I suspect that most people that voted for free will doesn't have enough knowledge or any at all about the subject.

of course you would 'suspect' that. pre-judging seems to come naturally