I definitely think free will exists, but there is a difference between will and ability.
But many of us are paralyzed in other aspects of our lives. Low self-esteem can cripple an individual emotionally. Skewed beliefs about ourselves, others, God, or the world can make us feel trapped and hopeless. Mental illnesses such as depression can keep us held in limbo for years, even though our choice would not be to remain depressed.
I've always wanted a happy life, but I did not have the tools to have one until I gained clarity in my view of the world, and gained enough recovery from the hurts of my childhood that although they still affect me, they don't incapacitate me.
Some would say that because I created a painful environment for myself to live in after having grown up in one, I didn't have free choice -- that my emotional conditions took away my ability to choose.
I don't think it took away the ability to choose; rather, I think it took away the ability to carry out that choice. For years, I knew my choice, if unencumbered by other factors, would be to create a different life for myself, but I lacked the tools to do it. I never lacked the will.
Its an illusion. No society can survive with such a system
Free will = Anarchy
Lee, I think you misunderstood the question. Free will doesn't mean "do as you please." It means "do you make your choices, or do your choices make you?"
I like to use the example of street gangs in Los Angeles. A determinist who grows up poor in a bad neighborhood in LA would reason, "I don't really have a choice. I have to join a gang, because of the environmental factors of my upbringing." A free will thinker would reason, "I can take the easy way, join a gang, and blame my choices on my fate; or I can do whatever I have to, to get out of this situation, and make my life better."
Yes, determinism may limit your choices, but it doesn't always eliminate choices. Every person is free to make those choices, for whatever his reasoning may be.
That's a very interesting view point in light of your being gay...I don't think I've ever heard another gay person say that!I think we all have the capability to choose what our actions are, but there are a lot of factors that influence our choices and options. For one thing, I have free will to make the choice to live a straight life, but I choose not to because there are other factors (me being gay) that influence that choice.
I'm sure this thought process applies to many other things in life in varying degrees.
That's a very interesting view point in light of your being gay...I don't think I've ever heard another gay person say that!
No, that's not how you sounded, I understood exactly what you were saying...you worded it very well.:smile:Heh, well by no means am I saying that being gay is a choice in case that's the way it sounded. I'm just pointing out that there are many gay men that force themselves to live a straight life despite being gay. (I'm sure you can think of a few well publicized Republican examples that apply here...)
Iam determinist i dont believe in free will . That humans have total control of their lives with their actions . To me free will isnt more than a illusion
Yes we have free will. We have the choice between good and evil, between right and wrong.
Yes we have free will. We have the choice between good and evil, between right and wrong.
Again, I maintain that this ability to choose right and wrong is very limited. We are subject to so many emotional and biological forces for us to have complete freedom in this regard. Even St. Paul recognizes this in Romans chapter 7.For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
When Paul uses the term "law", he is talking about all those things in the Bible that proscribe holy or good moral behavior. As you can see, Paul agrees with the law, but realizes he is at best pretty weak and mostly bound to screw up. His intellectual free will chooses holiness, but the rest of his humanness is at war with that. Paul is saying he is addicted to being a rat bastard and his claim is universal, that we are all bound by our humanity to not live up to even our own ideals, let alone God's ideals.
This is why Paul, and then more recently Martin Luther (who caused the Protestant Reformation over this point) insist that good behavior could not possibly be the basis for salvation, because our free will is limited by our flawed humanity. God has no choice but to recognize this and forgive us for it, otherwise the situation is hopeless.
When Paul uses the term "law", he is talking about all those things in the Bible that proscribe holy or good moral behavior.
This is why Paul, and then more recently Martin Luther (who caused the Protestant Reformation over this point) insist that good behavior could not possibly be the basis for salvation, because our free will is limited by our flawed humanity. God has no choice but to recognize this and forgive us for it, otherwise the situation is hopeless.