Freedom of Speech = Death

D_one and done

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But when companies fire employees for their opinions... when "groups" agitate for consequences intended to intimidate others into self censorship...

.... that is no longer freedom to speak.

ive noticed that a lot in todays society. people mistake freedom with unrestraint. imo, part of the responsibility of exercising any freedom is knowing when not to exercise it.

once someone turns 21, they are of legal age to drink. does that mean that they should drink every single day at all times? they certainly have the freedom to do so if they wish, but theres consequences that go along with that.

the constitution guarantees freedom of speech, but it doesnt guarantee freedom from all consequence. within the freedom of speech, its the citizens responsibility to moderate what they say, taking into account that it is not anybody's responsibility to accomodate EVERYTHING that one feels like saying.

at least thats how i feel. sorry if it doesnt make sense. its 3 am... lol
 

Phil Ayesho

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This is forever the argument of the censor...


What is the qualitative difference between being threatened with financial devastation for speaking your mind, or being threatened with incarceration for speaking your mind?

They are both threats. They are both seeking to prevent others from expressing their thoughts by making punitive examples of those stupid enough to speak out.

So where is the dividing line between that and tyranny of thought?


There ARE consequences... WHEN speech results in ACTUAL harm ( having your feelings hurt is not actual harm)

If you yell fire in a crowded theatre... and people are trampled as a result, you can be arrested and sued for negligence.



The kernel that become fascism is when you start INVENTING consequences for the things you don't want to hear, for the opinions you don't like.
 

Phil Ayesho

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This reminds me of the Dave Chapelle skit, "When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong". Sometimes, it's best to think about what you say before you do it. Even if you're perfectly in the right and the person opposing you is clearly wrong. Many times I want to take people to town for the crazy things that come out of their mouths. But there's a time and place for everything. I'll bite my tongue on certain things just to release the tension, and in time find a better stage for one to practice my freedom of speech for better impact and results.

I guess somehow this probably makes me Un-American to the eyes of some. :redface:

I don't think so... I largely agree with you.

We ALL wish some people would not say the things they say... I wish that religious nut would stop picketing the funerals of US soldiers saying God killed them because of Fags.

And I absolutely agree that the smart thing to do is to exercise self control and speak only when it is likely to be effective.


But it is entirely different to COMPEL self control... IT is entirely different to take the stance that what I, or some narrowly defined group, thinks is inappropriate shall be punished.

Prudence coerced is not freedom... its fear.
 

D_one and done

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freedom of speech is difficult for me in that its too simple. its all or nothing. if one want it to work for them, it cant be denied for someone else just because they're a neo-nazi, or a racist or a self-righteous religious kook. i dont like that but there's not much i can do about it. guess i have to learn how to suck it up.
 

Phil Ayesho

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But I see a different between that and what you call PC. I call the Howard incident you refer to a definite intrusion on anothers civil rights by actions which went beyond words. But I also say that people tromp on each other's civil rights all the time out of stupidity, nastiness, and just plain cluelessness. That is why we have organizations like the ACLU. That doesn't make it right. It just makes it commonplace.

I don't see it as some kind of vast PC conspiracy, though.

I don't see it as a conspiracy, either...

Saddly... it is human nature try and silence and punish people who think and fell differently than you.

Every war... every pogrom, every religious crusade was the result of the powerful invoking the average person's fear of others.


Its how Bush got us into Iraq... ooohhh, Muslims and Saddam... BOOO!

But the triumph of the US constitution was that it sought to enshrine as law a loftier principle than fear.


Nearly every American polled would willingly censor SOME speech.

That's a real failure of our educational system... that they have not been sufficiently inspired by the example of the founders.

I rail against PC whenever it raises its ugly head... as I equally rail against any injustice.

They only way to keep the darkness at bay is to shine a light upon it.
 

Phil Ayesho

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So sue me. Oh and slander doesn't apply in this case because I don't believe we've spoken. And, for the record, I said your posts are often riddled with xenophobia. I did not say LPSG poster Nicky9x6 is a xenophobe. The rest is commentary and opinion.

Above all, none of it, if placed in front of even the most dimwitted and grasping ambulance chaser would induce more than a robust guffaw and an invitation to avail oneself of the exit. So please, go back and re-read your boys own book of law and come back when you've grown up.

oh, man... I SOOOO wanted to hear that argument in court....
"what were the circumstance under which the libel occurred?"

"well, yer honor, I was innocently spouting off about islam on the Large Penis Support Group website....."
 

THEDUDEofDestiny

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ive noticed that a lot in todays society. people mistake freedom with unrestraint. imo, part of the responsibility of exercising any freedom is knowing when not to exercise it.

once someone turns 21, they are of legal age to drink. does that mean that they should drink every single day at all times? they certainly have the freedom to do so if they wish, but theres consequences that go along with that.

the constitution guarantees freedom of speech, but it doesnt guarantee freedom from all consequence. within the freedom of speech, its the citizens responsibility to moderate what they say, taking into account that it is not anybody's responsibility to accomodate EVERYTHING that one feels like saying.

at least thats how i feel. sorry if it doesnt make sense. its 3 am... lol


free speech should be met with free speech, not death
 

dong20

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certain members of the dutch government are arguing that death is just another consequence of unrestrained speech

I'd argue that in such circumstances, death is just another consequence of unrestrained action. Although, if one concludes that speech does in fact constitute action, then perhaps they're right.

However, I'm not sold.
 

rexcasual

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Freedom of speech is a relatively recent right of the common person in historical terms, and it is practiced with broad freedom only in the democratically governed countries we are familiar with. For most of the world's history people were at daily risk of severe consequences for speaking too freely. We had to know our place.

Even today, treasonous speech is rarely taken lightly in any modern liberal democracy. The closer one's country is to being at war, the more sensitive it is to speak treason. Still, speech is punished generally less vigorously than acts of treason.

A case of treason (versus freedom of speech?) in a democracy: that of the Israeli who was kidnapped by Mossad and brought back to Israel and imprisoned for decades, after speaking freely about the mere existence of an Israeli nuclear weapons program.

Blasphemy, to many of us, seems to fall into a sort of category of "old fashioned" or more accurately "out of style" type of treason. It is still viable and holds contemporary meaning to the devout, literalist Muslim, who believes every word from the Koran and its revolutionary mission of converting the world to its version of the truth. The "prophet" is protected against comments. Not every Muslim is going to back the route of sending death squads to teach those blasphemous Europeans a lesson. Some do.

We have this relatively young notion of freedom and liberty in our social contract, that we see as sensible, and worth dying for to protect. That social contract is fairly unique to West democracies. We see it as normal — especially within our borders. It's part of our sovereignty.

Muslims have a sense of duty and honour to protect the status of their spiritual prophet that some feel is worth dying for to uphold. In their countries that may be normal. They seem to not respect that notion we have of borders and sovereignty, where rights of speech may differ. They see blasphemy as a heinous act and react much in the way that a patriot may reserve for acts of treason.

I think the honour at stake on the part of the extremely religious Muslims, some of whom are moderate, and some of whom are not, and how they can get a just (in their eyes) response is a test of how our antagonisms will play out.

That said, bullying (which is what the terrorists are trying to effect) rarely changes anyone's ideas. It may change behaviour in the short term, and highly inconvenience the West, but it won't change the West's ideas of freedom. It makes it a damn sight easier to get authorizations for going to war.
 

THEDUDEofDestiny

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I am completely unconcerned with whether or not Muslims are justified in being angry. For the record, I never said all Muslims respond violently; and I am also aware of the fact that are world views are shaped by our cultural inheritance. That is an abstract debate that will go on for the forseeable future. What I am interested in is the practical here and now. My question for Dong20, whom I take it lives in a free society, is if he thinks any religious sect has the right to impose their laws on a secular society.

As a side note, treason (when defined as speech) is hardly prosecuted rigorously in the west. For all the Bush administration's abuses of power and assaults on civil liberty, you can't say that there is a shortage of anti-bush books available in any american bookstore.
 

rexcasual

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I am completely unconcerned with whether or not Muslims are justified in being angry. For the record, I never said all Muslims respond violently; and I am also aware of the fact that are world views are shaped by our cultural inheritance. That is an abstract debate that will go on for the forseeable future. What I am interested in is the practical here and now. My question for Dong20, whom I take it lives in a free society, is if he thinks any religious sect has the right to impose their laws on a secular society.

As a side note, treason (when defined as speech) is hardly prosecuted rigorously in the west. For all the Bush administration's abuses of power and assaults on civil liberty, you can't say that there is a shortage of anti-bush books available in any american bookstore.

I don't believe there is any justification for fatwas advocating violence against anyone in a secular country for their expressions of speech or publications or films. It is criminal and should be harshly countered.

I do believe that reaching the Muslim world's moderates is the best hope of reining in the extremists in the Muslim world, and to that end I believe any consideration of diplomacy has to start with some understanding of the mindset and the grievances, real or imagined. That's why treason seemed a plausible example of how to view blasphemy as it resonates in a world that is so foreign to us. Understand your adversary's motivations, not to justify them or give in to them, but to evaluate their currency.
 

dong20

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so you have no problem with someone living in a secular society being killed for making a video critical of islam?

What lead you to that conclusion?

... My question for Dong20, whom I take it lives in a free society, is if he thinks any religious sect has the right to impose their laws on a secular society.

Well, despite protestations to the contrary, I'd argue it already happens in many through religious lobbyists so it's a somewhat moot question. However as a question as to the principle, again I'd ask what would lead you to conclude I would.

My support for pluralism is just that.
 

Drifterwood

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Islam is inherently peaceful, yet it requires it's faithful to defend it. So if you attack their faith why are you surprised that Muslims will defend it.

What is in question is the level and nature of that defense, not unlike our Defense Secretaries defending us by invading Iraq.