French candidate macron's email hacked 2 days before election

[Drifterwood]

If there are true revelations that would have been damaging and maybe even correct to stop Macron becoming President, is it really an attack on democracy to reveal them?

 

[malakos]

It's Le Pen with all the hard right, Vichy baggage...

"Vichy baggage"? It's true that her father made some apologetics for the Vichy heritage. But it's commonly acknowledged that Madame Le Pen has been doing a lot of cleaning up of the Front national and distancing from the less... "acceptable" aspects of her father's work. I believe this actually reflected in her controversial comments about the Vel' d'Hiv Roundup. By claiming that "France" (obviously she was referring to France in the old national mystical sense) was not at fault for the roundup, as opposed to denying it or downplaying its significance, she sided with the Gaullist interpretation of that history, which totally delegitimizes the Vichy regime. She was saying "France" was not at fault because Vichy was a German puppet government, rather than a legitimate French government.

 

[Jason]

First of all, no one said Hillary didn't have any faults. Fact is, all candidates have faults.

I'm not opening a discussion about whether Trump or Clinton was the worst candidate, but pointing out that both parties managed to put forward truly dreadful candidates. Come the day of the election very many Americans were voting for the least bad. This is a sad state of affairs. Very many in France today are doing just the same.

 

[Jason]

"Vichy baggage"? It's true that her father made some apologetics for the Vichy heritage. But it's commonly acknowledged that Madame Le Pen has been doing a lot of cleaning up of the Front national and distancing from the less... "acceptable" aspects of her father's work. I believe this actually reflected in her controversial comments about the Vel' d'Hiv Roundup. By claiming that "France" (obviously she was referring to France in the old national mystical sense) was not at fault for the roundup, as opposed to denying it or downplaying its significance, she sided with the Gaullist interpretation of that history, which totally delegitimizes the Vichy regime. She was saying "France" was not at fault because Vichy was a German puppet government, rather than a legitimate French government.

The term used in Irish politics is "clean skin". Sinn Fein has a truly horrific past. In the Republic of Ireland it split into three: Sinn Fein, Fine Gael and Fianna Foil. The latter two claim to have rejected the past, and after nearly a century we probably do believe them. In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein has only recently put aside terrorist murder, and still has people who supported and even directly took part in such atrocities among its older members. However the younger generation claims a "clean skin". I think this is very much what Le Pen is doing. She has rejected the past of Front National (and the views of her father) but is still part of a party which includes many who do not have this "clean skin".

What Front National and Le Pen actually say they want are policies which appear acceptable. The problem is that many do not believe they mean what they say.

 

[marinera]

"Vichy baggage"? It's true that her father made some apologetics for the Vichy heritage. But it's commonly acknowledged that Madame Le Pen has been doing a lot of cleaning up of the Front national and distancing from the less... "acceptable" aspects of her father's work. I believe this actually reflected in her controversial comments about the Vel' d'Hiv Roundup. By claiming that "France" (obviously she was referring to France in the old national mystical sense) was not at fault for the roundup, as opposed to denying it or downplaying its significance, she sided with the Gaullist interpretation of that history, which totally delegitimizes the Vichy regime. She was saying "France" was not at fault because Vichy was a German puppet government, rather than a legitimate French government.

I don't read her statement like that; anyway, she said colonialism had mostly positive effects, which is a scary and extremely offensive statement:

.....
In the May 1945 uprisings following the Second World War, when Algerians who had fought to liberate Europe demanded their basic human rights, the colonial government brutally massacred 15,000 Algerians. 104 Europeans lost their lives. Wiping out entire villages, throwing people out of airplanes in a campaign of fear and brutal repression, the French violence was a turning point in the Algerian struggle for civil rights and justice.

Between 1954 and 1962 over one million Algerians were killed during the war of liberation. The extent of cruelty defies belief. Whether reading Alistair Horne’s seminal A savage war of peace on the sheer barbarism, Henri Alleg’s The Question on the institutional torture centres (he saw the internal workings from painfully close up) or listening to the stories of the descendants who saw their parents brutally murdered, disappeared, tortured at the hands of – no other than – the likes of Jean Marie Le Pen. Like his daughter, Le Pen was a French Presidential candidate, and is a man known to have committed torture in Algeria.
....
https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-...ch-elections-algeria-le-pen-and-fascism-at-he

 

[marinera]

Affluence at 12:00, 28.23%, two percent less than previous elections. Pollster suggests this is good for Le Pen since believe her voters are 'more motivated', which could make sense. Let's see.

 

[Jason]

Affluence at 12:00, 28.23%, two percent less than previous elections. Pollster suggests this is good for Le Pen since believe her voters are 'more motivated', which could make sense. Let's see.

I agree a low turnout will help Le Pen. However even if turnout is down by 5% and all this 5% would have voted for Macronit is probably not enough to change the outcome. Two thoughts:

* For Macron a win by anything less than 60% will actually be a poor result. A win by 58% or 55% or even 52% will be seen not as a clear win (which it is) but a squeak. Le Pen will be energised for the next election - is it 2022?
* Political betting odds in UK give odds of a Le Pen victory as 6:1. Converting to a probability of victory it is actually 14% (not 17%). 14% is a non-trivial chance.

 

[Britney Spears]

Fairly certain that Le Pen will not win

 

[Klingsor]

James Comey's little stunt worked very well in the US just days before when everything was unacceptably tipping Clinton.

Now that's funny!

Maybe . . . but it's also a very defensible position.

The Comey Letter Probably Cost Clinton The Election

 

[marinera]

I agree a low turnout will help Le Pen. However even if turnout is down by 5% and all this 5% would have voted for Macronit is probably not enough to change the outcome. Two thoughts:

* For Macron a win by anything less than 60% will actually be a poor result. A win by 58% or 55% or even 52% will be seen not as a clear win (which it is) but a squeak. Le Pen will be energised for the next election - is it 2022?
* Political betting odds in UK give odds of a Le Pen victory as 6:1. Converting to a probability of victory it is actually 14% (not 17%). 14% is a non-trivial chance.

The biggest handicap for macron, beside not having a party behind him, has been Melenchon' refusal (unreasonable and vile) to take a side, otherwise the outcome would be 70-80% for macron IMO. Macron Will find hard to find a majority, but for Le Pen It would be impossibile. I think many foreign observer are pushing theirs wishes against reality, but better for them also that their hopes don't become reality.

 

[deleted15807]

Looks like we dodged a bullet. Has any whack job won since Trump? Maybe the world's voters have seen what going for an "outsider/con artist" can do.

Macron, Well Ahead of Le Pen, Is Poised to Be President of France

Maybe . . . but it's also a very defensible position.

The Comey Letter Probably Cost Clinton The Election

I can only read this in bits and pieces when it came out as we know now there was an FBI investigation ongoing on Trump yet Comey remained silent on that one and it's all so "nauseating" as he said last week. From the start of Clinton email witch hunt sponsored by Judicial Watch it was clear Comey's FBI wasn't following the rules regarding investigations. Then you read the almost comedy of "errors" that lead to how he was able to influence the election.

The attorney general could have ordered FBI Director James Comey not to send his bombshell letter on Clinton emails. Here’s why she didn’t.
​

Though ultimately I fault none of them more than faulting the voters for being unable to recognize the con man that is now in the White House.

 

[deleted37010]

Macron wins French presidency by emphatic margin: projections
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-idUSKBN183003?il=0
Five projections, issued within minutes of polling stations closing at 8 p.m. (2 p.m. ET), showed Macron beating Le Pen by around 65 percent to 35 - a gap wider than the 20 or so percentage points that pre-election surveys had pointed to.

 

[marinera]

Images of a gigantic and joyful crowd waving flags of both France and EU are warming for the heart. People knows EU has heavy faults, but hope is not dead. Let's dream Macron will be a force for a more fair and democratic European Union.

 

[Wave85]

Thank God the French are smarter than we Americans... nice to know that sanity still exists.

 

[malakos]

What Front National and Le Pen actually say they want are policies which appear acceptable. The problem is that many do not believe they mean what they say.

I'm assuming you mean, for example, that many Frenchmen do not believe that the new FN has really moved on from anti-Jewishness? Did you have some other examples in mind of areas where France does not believe the supposed transition of the FN?

 

[Klingsor]

Le Pen it is.

Or isn't.

 

[marinera]

I find puzzling that some americans think Le Pen is a European versione of Trump. Le Pen pretty much said Trump is a clown, she is son of a politician and never did anything else than the politician; She has a strong ideology and is well educated and very manipolative. Trump has no ideology, no idea of International relations, no knowledge or history. Two completely different characters.

 

[Wave85]

I find puzzling that some americans think Le Pen is a European versione of Trump. Le Pen pretty much said Trump is a clown, she is son of a politician and never did anything else than the politician; She has a strong ideology and is well educated and very manipolative. Trump has no ideology, no idea of International relations, no knowledge or history. Two completely different characters.

Don't think Le Pen is a European version of Trump. Do think that some of the principles that got Trump elected are the same as Le Pen's principles.

 

[malakos]

I find puzzling that some americans think Le Pen is a European versione of Trump. Le Pen pretty much said Trump is a clown, she is son of a politician and never did anything else than the politician; She has a strong ideology and is well educated and very manipolative. Trump has no ideology, no idea of International relations, no knowledge or history. Two completely different characters.

They do share similar nationalist tendencies but you're right, as far as I can tell beyond that the similarities fade.

I do recall her issuing very approving comments regarding Mr. Trump in the period shortly before the election and also in the aftermath. Where did you see the denigrating remarks?

 

[marinera]

@malakos, i heard It at the TV; She said kinda 'Trump is not a guy Who you Can trust, he is inconsistent and change ideas from a day to another.'. don't take It Word for Word obviously, i am going by Memory.