"Friend Zone"

[Jovial]

I still don't understand this concept completely! :redface:

Is the friend zone people that you decided you don't like romantically and they are just friends and will always be just friends?

Or is the friend zone also people that you like for potential romance, but you realize that they don't like you romantically, so you don't bother thinking of them as more than friends? Thus, you put them in the friend zone and don't waste any more effort on them.

Or does the friend zone include both of these situations?

 

[Principessa]

I still don't understand this concept completely! :redface:

Is the friend zone people that you decided you don't like romantically and they are just friends and will always be just friends?

Yes, either that or he's gay.

Or is the friend zone also people that you like for potential romance, but you realize that they don't like you romantically, so you don't bother thinking of them as more than friends? Thus, you put them in the friend zone and don't waste any more effort on them.

I think men might do this more than women, but I could be wrong. If I have a romantic interest in a man and he doesn't reciprocate it's too painful for me to be his friend. I'll just walk away.

Or does the friend zone include both of these situations?

I think it can be both defintions for different types of people at different times. The bottomline is the friend zone means you ain't getting fucked.

 

[BlackIsKingSize]

Sounds like the first situation is the one putting someone the friend zone and the second is from the perspective of the one being put there. So they're two sides of the same coin really.

 

[D_Selmus_Swallow]

Alright, but where do single guys who are "friends" with plenty of women they find attractive, but find that those women are involved with someone else at time? This seems to be my case.

I know women, but all of them (and I mean all of them) are already involved with somebody, and I never find myself in a one-on-one situation with them that doesn't involve the boyfriend hovering around and snagging them off before anything gets going. In at least some of these cases, I'm sure of at least some reciporcal interest, but how to go about this when you've only got very few chances and very little time? Aside from the fact that the couple of times I got involved with somebody who was seeing someone else, the significant others in question were : A. Very far away B The women in question all made a direct move on me and/or C. Fairly new into their relationship I'm decidely not aggressive when trying to go after women when I know their involved, beyond the usual banter and flirting (when I'm even allowed near them at all). I'm just not going to do anything unless I get something direct that says "Hey, I want you" and an open place to act on that.

 

[D_Selmus_Swallow]

I still don't understand this concept completely! :redface:

1. Is the friend zone people that you decided you don't like romantically and they are just friends and will always be just friends?

2. Or is the friend zone also people that you like for potential romance, but you realize that they don't like you romantically, so you don't bother thinking of them as more than friends? Thus, you put them in the friend zone and don't waste any more effort on them.

Or does the friend zone include both of these situations?

Well for me 1 is definitely the friend-zone, but it could change. Gotta say that physical unattractiveness+compatible personalities and interests seems to be the big one for most people. If the ugly duck turned into a even a mildly physically attractive swan and kept the compatible personality and you knew they might want you then yah I'd go for it.

Number 2 would be a far less personally changeable situation because there's nothing that can be done until the other wants it to change.

The first is by choice from you and the other is by decree to you. Voluntary vs. involuntary friend zone.

 

[D_Selmus_Swallow]

Alright, but where do single guys who are "friends" with plenty of women they find attractive, but find that those women are involved with someone else at time? This seems to be my case.

I know women, but all of them (and I mean all of them) are already involved with somebody, and I never find myself in a one-on-one situation with them that doesn't involve the boyfriend hovering around and snagging them off before anything gets going. In at least some of these cases, I'm sure of at least some reciporcal interest, but how to go about this when you've only got very few chances and very little time? Aside from the fact that the couple of times I got involved with somebody who was seeing someone else, the significant others in question were : A. Very far away B The women in question all made a direct move on me and/or C. Fairly new into their relationship I'm decidely not aggressive when trying to go after women when I know their involved, beyond the usual banter and flirting (when I'm even allowed near them at all). I'm just not going to do anything unless I get something direct that says "Hey, I want you" and an open place to act on that.

So what exactly is this state of being then? Friend Zone? The Twilight Zone? No Passing Zone? What?

 

[avg_joe]

I don't get romantically involved with my friends. I don't mix friend and lover together. For me, my friends stay exclusively in the friend zone, and they can't cross the line.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

I don't see "friends" as friends, they're my "brothers and sisters" so my my friend zone, is where everyone I can't touch for a particular reason go.

Makes things a little easier.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

The friend zone describes where you are at when you do NOT do the things required to give someone the cues they need to see to be interested in you sexually.


This happens to guys who do not make a move soon enough, nor otherwise make clear to a girl that they have a romantic interest in her.

You may be horney as hell for her... but if you fail to show the bold resolve to try for her, she will come to see you as lacking in aggressiveness , self confidence, and ambition.

And, let's be quite clear here... THAT is what women are selecting for in a male.
They may like you a lot- love your company... they may even wish they were sexually attracted to you...
But once you have failed to show that you like them enough to take a risk... no matter how nice a guy you are, they see you as not bold enough... and that means you are likely to end up not making anything of yourself in life.
You are good enough to be a friend... but not bold enough to invest their heart in.

( that is not always true- but girls are selecting based upon the odds, not the individual )

How long this takes is different for each woman... some women discount you in the first few minutes if you are not bold enough...
some will give you weeks or months...

But let me tell you... once you have crossed that invisible line... once that golden moment in which she was waiting for you to declare yourself is past... it is nearly impossible to ever get her to see you as a sexual contender.

A woman needs to SEE that she fires you up.
She needs to see that you feel strongly enough to risk rejection... that when you see your heart's desire that you GO for it.

That is what will excite her.

 

[Jovial]

I think this is very true, Phil.

But I'm not 100% sold on the explanation. It could be that the man doesn't show interest in the woman by flirting or complimenting her. So from the woman's perspective, she simply has nowhere to go from there even if she is interested. Women aren't going to make an overt first move most times.

I'm just saying that it doesn't need to be explained by some deeply rooted genetic need in women. A lot of times it can be explained by just a simple lack of communication. In which case getting out of the friend zone is still nearly impossible, but only because it's hard to change someone's opinion after awhile.

 

[D_Selmus_Swallow]

I think we need to have a working definition of "friend" here. Because by my understanding of the word, and I could not imagine loving someone who was not a "friend" as well.

 

[Principessa]

I think this is very true, Phil.

But I'm not 100% sold on the explanation. It could be that the man doesn't show interest in the woman by flirting or complimenting her. So from the woman's perspective, she simply has nowhere to go from there even if she is interested. Women aren't going to make an overt first move most times.

If a man is interested in a woman it is HIS responsibility to act like he has a friggin' brain in his head and let the woman know. :angryfire2: :irked: We do not read minds! Just because you think you're all that and a a bag of chips does not mean women will be clamoring all over you.

I'm just saying that it doesn't need to be explained by some deeply rooted genetic need in women. A lot of times it can be explained by just a simple lack of communication. In which case getting out of the friend zone is still nearly impossible, but only because it's hard to change someone's opinion after awhile.

I hate to admit it but for the most part Phil Ayesho is correct. :redface: I hadn't thought of it in those terms before but yeah. The men I know who won't or don't make a move are also kind of lazy career wise and lack ambition. Why would a woman want a man who can't make positive progress romantically or careerwise? He has basically proven himself to be useless to her.

 

[Jovial]

If a man is interested in a woman it is HIS responsibility to act like he has a friggin' brain in his head and let the woman know. :angryfire2: :irked: We do not read minds!

Could you clarify how this relates to the thread?

If I understand correctly, you are saying that you may like a man, but if he doesn't tell you he likes you soon enough, then you decide that you only want to be friends. i.e. you put him in the friend zone. If he waits too long then he loses the opportunity.

It sounds like both of my definitions could fit what you mean by friend zone, no?

Just because you think you're all that and a a bag of chips does not mean women will be clamoring all over you.

Why are you attacking me? When I started the thread I was just asking a question. The thread wasn't about me. Why do people assume it is? I never said I was in the "friend zone" or complaining about anything here. I just wanted people's thoughts because the term "friend zone" comes up a lot and I wanted to understand its meaning better. Frankly, I think the concept of "friend zone" is an oversimplification of the situation.

 

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

Here are a few factors ive found that gets you to the "friends zone"


1) Someone you like but know they dont have the qualities you look for in a partner

2) Someone you treasure so much you dont want to risk losing them to a bad romantic relationship

3) Someone who is aready involved in a relationship and is unavaliable

4) Someone who prefers a different gender to yourself

5) Someone you would like a relationship with but live to far apart

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I think this is very true, Phil.

But I'm not 100% sold on the explanation. It could be that the man doesn't show interest in the woman by flirting or complimenting her. So from the woman's perspective, she simply has nowhere to go from there even if she is interested. Women aren't going to make an overt first move most times.

I'm just saying that it doesn't need to be explained by some deeply rooted genetic need in women. A lot of times it can be explained by just a simple lack of communication. In which case getting out of the friend zone is still nearly impossible, but only because it's hard to change someone's opinion after awhile.

I wish I could believe that... but at 50 I have seen far too much evidence to the contrary.

Here's the thing...women do not "think" about this issue. Its a feeling thing for them.

Women generally do not make the first move because they, A- don't have to, and B- are looking at your approach, or lack thereof, as important information about your character.

You hear guys complain loudly about how women dig assholes... but they are not responding to the guy being an asshole... they are responding to the guy being aggressive and forward and going after what he wants...to hell with what anyone else thinks.

Sit those women down and you will get an earful of how much they DON'T like that he's an asshole. So WHY are they with them? Why do those women keep falling for assholes?
...Because they can not help what turns them on... they can not change the fact that they are biologically attracted to men who SEEM confident and bold.
Its just that young women often are not experienced enough to be able to discern true confidence from belligerent swagger.


Not to say that some women are not more intellectual and less biologically driven ... some women can be talked into giving you a chance even after you are in the friend zone... but understand that they are giving you a THOUGHTFUL chance... you are not, at that point, making them hot and wet with excitement for you.

And its gonna take some pretty steep climbing to try and get the response out of them...


I can't tell you how many times I have watched a guy take the time to get to know a girl, wait until he's really sure she 'likes' him, before he takes the emotional risk of asking her out.

I can't tell you how many times that guy was me, in my youth.

And the repsonse is always , well, I really like you , as a friend..."

All I can tell you is that if that sounds familiar to you, the solution is is easy.
Stop waiting till you feel safe.

If the girl excites you, let her KNOW she excites you by taking a risk.
Behave romantically interested from the start.

Women are looking for men who desire them enough to risk rejection.
Women are looking for men who act boldly.

Repeat that to yourself until it sinks in.

 

[Jovial]

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you. I just see it slightly differently.

Here's the thing...women do not "think" about this issue. Its a feeling thing for them.

I agree it's a feeling, but...

Women generally do not make the first move because they, A- don't have to, and B- are looking at your approach, or lack thereof, as important information about your character.

I don't believe they are judging your character by your approach. No doubt that a more assertive, bold man with turn her on more, but it's just that. Turned on = good feelings. Woman may want to justify it by saying it shows better character, but that's only so that she doesn't have to admit that it's about sexual feelings. (Women are supposed to appear chaste.)

You hear guys complain loudly about how women dig assholes... but they are not responding to the guy being an asshole... they are responding to the guy being aggressive and forward and going after what he wants...to hell with what anyone else thinks.

Sit those women down and you will get an earful of how much they DON'T like that he's an asshole. So WHY are they with them? Why do those women keep falling for assholes?
...Because they can not help what turns them on... they can not change the fact that they are biologically attracted to men who SEEM confident and bold.
Its just that young women often are not experienced enough to be able to discern true confidence from belligerent swagger.

See, I don't think what women like most is the quality that he goes after what he wants; although, that can be a good quality. The women are responding to the fact that he is showing sexual interest. If someone likes you, it is a turn on.

Say a woman likes a man, but he's not showing sufficient interest. If she hears through friends that the man said he liked her a lot but was shy for some reason, she would probably have a renewed interest and maybe even encourage him a little to "make a move" by being more friendly, etc. She may not be so bold as to ask him out. But my point is it's the fact that she knows he is interested in her that keeps her interest and not the fact that he had the quality of "going after what he wants."

Of course everyone is different, but if a woman knows that a man is interested (through whatever means) then she will be more interested. And I think it comes from getting self-esteem from knowing that she is wanted.

People like other people that turn them on. You are saying women are turned on by the assertive, bold qualities in men. I am saying they are turned on by knowing that men want them. It's just that often the assertive, bold men are also the ones that show women that they want them.

Not to say that some women are not more intellectual and less biologically driven ... some women can be talked into giving you a chance even after you are in the friend zone... but understand that they are giving you a THOUGHTFUL chance... you are not, at that point, making them hot and wet with excitement for you.

And its gonna take some pretty steep climbing to try and get the response out of them...

But even if things got sexual early on, she may have lost interest after a few months anyway. So the reason it's had to get out of the friend zone is the same reason that maybe a relationship (if it had happened) wouldn't have lasted long anyway. She would have lost interest anyway, either way!

All I can tell you is that if that sounds familiar to you, the solution is is easy.
Stop waiting till you feel safe.

If the girl excites you, let her KNOW she excites you by taking a risk.
Behave romantically interested from the start.

Women are looking for men who desire them enough to risk rejection.
Women are looking for men who act boldly.

Repeat that to yourself until it sinks in.

I agree this is good advice, but I think it's important to understand the underlying reasons why this advice works so that one doesn't simply act belligerent in an attempt to be bold.

What I'm saying is being assertive and bold will implicitly also be showing romantic/sexual interest. So even though the reasoning is incorrect, the end result is correct.

Alternatively, if a man sets out to show romantic/sexual interest, then he will most likely have to be assertive and bold. But it's simply a consequence of showing interest.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Here's the thing...
You have this notion.

I have evidence.


This has been studied.
Women are not consciously judging you.
But they ARE judging and evaluating you, like it or not.

They don't all use the same criteria, nor do they weight the criteria they may use in common the same... but their criteria all fall within a certain predictable range on a bell curve.

This is ALL driven purely by genetic advantage.

IT doesn't matter what you THINK you are doing, nor what women think they are doing.
Any thinking involved is After-the-fact rationalizations for why you already acted as you did.

Scientific study has shown that women's behavior can only be explained by making the choices that are in the interests of her genetic legacy.

Women will fuck guys on stage, and football stars because those guys are at the center of attention of a lot of other people... and that translates into a sense of tribal prominence and importance.
ITs not true... MOST band members never make anything of themselves... but women are not THINKING about this- they are reacting the way their genes evolved in a tribal society.

Married Women who have an affair are far more likely to arrange a tryst when they are ovulating, even tho they have no conscious idea when they are ovulating.
Its because their sense of sexual desire is strongest when they are ovulating and that desire is gonna be most likely to overcome their fidelity when they are most likely to get pregnant.

It does not matter that they are taking the pill, using an IUD, condoms or diaphram... their sexual response is wired to biology and not their intellectual plans to not get pregnant.

Sorry... men select for physical beauty and fitness... women display to men their physical attributes to impart how fit their genes are for physical development.

Women select for social parameters, success, drive and ambition.

Neither of us can help it... Its how we are wired to repsonse to each other.

You are judging the women you approach. You are making a selection.

So are they.

 

[Jovial]

Scientific study has shown that women's behavior can only be explained by making the choices that are in the interests of her genetic legacy.

I'd like to see any evidence that this is all based on gaining a genetic advantage. Seems like these sorts of things are difficult to study and prove. It's mostly speculation.

I agree that a lot of attraction and love is based on feelings. That's been studied. But I'm not sure if that is based on genetics/instincts or if the feelings are learned by our upbringing.

But you haven't really addressed my last post. I am saying the feelings of attraction in a woman are based on knowing that the man likes her. You are saying that those feelings are based on him being bold and assertive. It's hard to determine if you or I am correct since both those things usually go hand-in-hand.

 

[HazelGod]

Just because you think you're all that and a a bag of chips does not mean women will be clamoring all over you.

Oh, but it does... :wink:

 

[Bbucko]

Here are a few factors ive found that gets you to the "friends zone"


1) Someone you like but know they dont have the qualities you look for in a partner

2) Someone you treasure so much you dont want to risk losing them to a bad romantic relationship

3) Someone who is aready involved in a relationship and is unavaliable

4) Someone who prefers a different gender to yourself

5) Someone you would like a relationship with but live to far apart

Excellent summation. The only thing I'd add to the matrix is someone whom you met in a sexual fashion originally whose personality was much more alluring than their sexual performance(s).

Throughout my 20s and 30s, the bulk of my friends were ex-tricks or old fuckbuds. I still have two or three right now. But I gotta say, being open about this can make a new romantic interest extremely jealous :wink: