Fu-k Gay Self-Haters!

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by B_bxmuscle, Jan 21, 2012.

  1. B_bxmuscle

    B_bxmuscle New Member

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    The Inequality of Human Races [by Arthur de Gobineau] - NNN Reporters Newsroom Forum

    The On-line Link is to Arthur de Gobineau’s Essay on Human Inequality, 1842, that defined modern ideas of race and racism. Its contempt for black people and claim that they are inherently inferior to whites (the highest form of humanity) and Asians (number two in the hierarchy) is unadorned. See Chap 16 in particular.

    Documents 2 and 3 are examples of Latin American Casta Painting, an art-form that emerged in the 18th century to validate and express the social inequality and discrimination in the Spanish Empire at its height. This art represented those of white-Spanish extraction as the most desirable element in this multi-ethnic empire, one that others groups should aspire to emulate and integrate with through inter-marriage and assimilation. In all Casta Painting families in which one parent is “pure Spanish” is presented as cultured, affluent and attractive. All families in which there is not one fully white/Spanish parent, the families are presented as poor, dysfunctional and unattractive. Children in families with one European parent are always placed closer to the European parent, away from the non-European or mixed parent. You see the same process at work today in Latin American soap-operas in which affluent people are of European extraction, lower classes are mixed, black or Indian.

    Document 4 is called “Three Kings of the Ghetto,” by Eli Leskley, a Jewish artist whose work depicted those Jews who collaborated with the Nazis, perhaps for survival, maybe for advantages at the Terezin concentration camp where he was imprisoned during World War II.

    The internalization of persecution as self-hatred is not new or unique to those of us with same-sex desire. But to my knowledge the fight against it and the defeat of pressure toward self-loathing has not involved out-pouring of sympathy for those who despise themselves by the rest of the people who face the same pressures. Self-haters have been seen as the enemy, and for good reason, who should be shunned and exposed, essentially as a matter of self defense. I don’t know of many Jews who sympathize with neo-Nazis or blacks who try to win over Klansmen. Homophobia should be fought politically and critiqued theoretically, but I’d question the degree of care and tender concern for self-haters attracted to their own sex shown here on LPSG and elsewhere.
     
  2. Redwyvre

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    Yes, imagine if everyone everywhere gave up feeling guilty....
     
  3. Countryguy63

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    I'm sorry that you feel that way, but you have completely missed the mark on this one :frown1:

    To compare those that are struggling with accepting themselves because of the negatives that have been beat into their heads and hearts, with those that have sold themselves out to the enemies, is WAY OFF BASE!!

    Before You Assume, Learn The Facts.
    Before You Judge, Understand Why.
    Before You Hurt Someone, Feel Their Hurt.
    Before You Speak, Think
    :smile:​
     
  4. B_bxmuscle

    B_bxmuscle New Member

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    I'm open to other views, which is why I ended saying I question, not reject, this sympathy for self-haters.

    But to extend the analysis, the fight against oppression and discrimination has long included understanding and pushing back against its internalization. Frantz Fanon's "Black Skins, White Masks" did so regarding internalized racism, Albert Memmi did regarding self-abasement among conquered peoples in "The Colonizer and the Colonized" decades ago. A firm stand against self-hatred rather sympathy has always been key to combating it. Maybe its different for self-hating people of same-sex orientation?
     
  5. Countryguy63

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    If I'm understanding you correctly, I think what you are rallying against, aren't the ones that genuinely feel bad about themselves, but the ones that cross the line and outwardly act against the very group that they should be including themselves in.

    "Blacks" that conspired and helped Whites that were hurting other Blacks. "Jews" that sold out and were working with Nazi's that were hurting other Jews. "Gays" (most closeted) that help the bigots and homophobes hurt other gays.

    If you wanna bash those folks, I'm right there beside you (or at least behind you *better view :wink:*)

    On here if you noticed, along with the sympathy expressed for those who are having an extremely difficult time accepting their sexuality, support and encouragement id also expressed. They're not helping others hurt someone, they're genuinely reaching out for help. Big difference :smile:
     
  6. B_bxmuscle

    B_bxmuscle New Member

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    To Countryguy 63:

    Our differences may be more of emphasis rather than fundamentals. We might (?) agree that the homophobia Idaho Senator Larry Craig, caught trying to suck dick in a men's room (the 29 year old police officer was outta his league anyway!) is beneath contempt, but see more passive self-denial differently.

    I admit approaching this issue of gay self-hatred from the prism of a person of color whose seen this at work in that other context. This prism could be distorting or one-sided; or it might give me a better understanding about how sympathizing with those who hate themselves and those like them (they're rarely separated) are part of the larger system of repression and bring it directly to others who are threatened by it. Still, I understand that there's always a "there but for the grace of God go I" aspect to it that's probably the real reason people sympathize with self-haters. It should only go so far though in my judgement.
     
  7. Countryguy63

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    We would definitely agree on the Senator! :biggrin1:
     
  8. coveryerteeth

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    How about we all agree not to fuck them? I suspect that would be a more effective catalyst for change.
     
  9. Exbiker

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    Ahh.

    I'm not sure I understand ?

    1. Any sexuality is fine, gay, straight, bi, whatever
    2. ... so long as the "objects" are other adult humans
    3. It's very wrong that people still question that, and generate hatred
    4. No human being should hate himself, or herself, over adult sexuality issues. In fact self hate isn't really a good start even for anyone who does need help, for any reason
    5. Offering support and understanding is just that. It need't amplify any self hatred.

    It's that simple. There are some parallels with other kinds of prejudice and oppression, but it's a mistake to think they are exact, or to mis-read one set of phenomena, based on your understanding of another. In my opinion, clearly.
     
  10. coveryerteeth

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    An endless wellspring of compassion is an admirable quality to have, Exbiker.

    If you were to google, say, Ken Mehlman ... I'm curious as to whether the likes of him would strain your capacity for compassion?
     
  11. B_bxmuscle

    B_bxmuscle New Member

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    I'm with you on this one dude. I did google this guy, see he's doing a lot of penitence for his past misdeeds. I'm not one to hold a grudge (other than for him being a Republican), but I'll leave the redemption business to religious fundamentalists, who I doubt are being particularly forgiving in this case.
     
  12. D_Dick_S_Lapp

    D_Dick_S_Lapp Account Disabled

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    Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't hating a self-hater pretty useless? Where's the defense in it? How exactly does hating a person that already hate them self help anyone? Or for that matter hurt anyone else?

    Don't get me wrong though. If a self hater is in fact in a place of power and is actively presenting something like legislation or an over goal that would degrade an area or group of people then sure there should be cause for concern. Even then though, i doubt hate would be very useful versus focused action. I just think theres a real difference between compassion, indifference and hate.
     
    #12 D_Dick_S_Lapp, Jan 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  13. B_bxmuscle

    B_bxmuscle New Member

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    You're right! But note that I'm not advocating hating them, just questioning all this kind-hearted sympathy dished out to them I've seen here and elsewhere. Pity seems reasonable, but sympathy?
     
  14. D_Dick_S_Lapp

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    See thats what i tend not to get though. Why do you care? Why do you have vested interest in something that obviously annoy's the hell out of you? Why not complete and utter indifference?

    Seriously not to be harsh or anything but if the person actually hates themselves that much sooner or later if someone somewhere doesn't show some sort of compassion towards them then statistically speaking they'll have a gun in their mouth in no time. And how much of a problem would they be then? Would there be a cause for pity then?

    There are things i don't understand (which could span a universe) and things i have a good idea about. My theory is that everyone needs an enemy. Or a "bad guy". Someone to take their aggression's out on. Someone to disapprove of. And someone to feel pity for.
     
    #14 D_Dick_S_Lapp, Jan 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
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