Fuck New York

WestSiderNYC

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There are many gay lobbying organizations at the state, local and federal levels.

www.hrc.org is the largest and most well-funded and concentrates at the federal level, but also provides significant support at targeted state and local levels.

And I know that a large march on Albany is already in the works...
 

Lordpendragon

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It's a mystery to this hetero male why anyone would want to get married. Being not allowed to would stand as one of the worst reasons for doing it. I'm just looking forward to the divorce cases.

BTW I'm completely supportive of equality in law before anyone wants to use me as firing practice. And I think all gay couples should be made to have at least two kids - I'm sick of you having so much more disposeable income, nice interior design and great holidays. Get to those diapers. In fact, if I have any more kids, I want the right to hand them over to my gay friends for the first two years.
 

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Lordpendragon said:
It's a mystery to this hetero male why anyone would want to get married. Being not allowed to would stand as one of the worst reasons for doing it. I'm just looking forward to the divorce cases.

It's a mystery to this homo male why anyone would either. I just don't think heteros ought to be afforded "special rights" any longer.
 

DC_DEEP

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Stronzo said:
...HOWEVEVER- though a self-proclaimed "lapsed Roman Catholic", she said "you guys marrying is where I draw the line" when the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled in favor of gay marriage.
Friend or no friend, here's what I always feel/respond about that statement: Fine, draw your line, but please don't presume to draw MY lines for me.
... Yet no. When I pressed her for a reason and admittedly got rather outspoken she said "I just don't believe in it."!...
Again, my response: If you don't believe in it, that's fine. Don't do it. But please don't presume to tell me how to believe and what to believe in.
 

DC_DEEP

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I have posted some time ago, some of the same points MadameZ makes - requiring certificate of pregnancy before marriage, or strictly forbidding all divorce, dissolution, or annulments, etc...

Bottom line for me is, however... either the government should get out of the marriage business altogether and leave it to the churches (this includes striking all references, benefits, and protections to marriage in all federal and state and local laws) or offer equal protections under the law to all citizens (a la 14th amendment.) It's like I have to groan almost every day (while rolling my eyes) "Governement, dudes, you must choose, you CANNOT have it both ways.
 

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Lordpendragon said:
Let's just ban marriage then or at least get the church the fuck out of our lives.

I guess Lpd that I understand the human need (given my own social religious background) to acknowledge the love I feel for my boyfriend in the forum of my upbringing. In truth the queen in me loves the pomp and ceremony of the Church of England ritual. So I think, were we to opt for marriage, I'd do it in that forum. Call it the Yankee traditionalist in me. Could I forgo it? Yes. But I like the feel of the building and the architecture and the solemnity and all the appropriate traditional music. It appeals to me on a very subliminal level. My boyfreind was raised as a non-practicing Methodist and he too is drawn to the beauty of our American Episcopal Church. In truth he's made more indication that he'd like to formalize our union than I would. And to tell you the honest truth I'd willingly do it for him since I'm so in love.

(I think - truth be told - he wants to stick up the arse of his "born again" brother and his wife who signed the anti-gay marriage petition that has gotten the issue on the 2008 ballot)


I know it goes against my own adult logic but I still recall with great fondness my affection for EYC (Episcopal Youth Fellowship). As well, I recall the heady discussions on Sundays between my dad and his brother about the validity of religion to this society in general back when I was still at home. His elder brother was an Episcopal priest and my dad's irreligious to the "nth" degree. These were educated thoughtful men I witnessed who never "lost their cool" but often became quite heated in their volleys. My brother and I would listen from the adjoining room in sheer wonder at the level of depth to which these two men would manage to articulate their points. It was pretty awe-inspiring stuff.

But I suspect your latter suggestion ("church the fuck out") is the prefereable one. If only there was a way to do just that.
 

madame_zora

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Dr Rock said:
as it's calculated to. this is primarily why organized religion remains so dangerous even in an age in which most of us are supposedly well-informed enough to know better.

Ugh, so true. The beginning of the end of my association with the church was brought about by someone I knew well and trusted who just asked me if my church tended to play more upbeat songs right before they took up the offering. I defended my church saying "No, of course not", but then I watched and listened for the next few weeks. Damned if it wasn't true.

Tradition, familiarity, ritual- these are things that human beings are wired to be attracted to. It's a safety net and makes us feel comforted. It's not the scary, confrontational place where we have to make decisions and will be judged based on those decisions, it's the place where everything happens one certain way, so as long as you do things that way, you'll be judged right. The problem is that we're so vunerable in our "relaxed state" that we aren't using our otherwise decent powers of perception THERE. I wasn't either, so I can see how dangerous this stuff really is when it is used by politicians for selfish goals. Decent, honest people just aren't looking for bad guys at church, so they more readily accept anything being said there as truth and good.

Religion causes some people to want to do good things and treat each other well, and I'm all in favor of that. If they're doing so because they believe that is the will of God, I have no problem with that either. What I have a HUGE problem with is when people use their religion as a way to elevate the importance of their OPINIONS over others. That's bullshit and it needs to stop, or human beings will never make it out of the dark ages.
 

Riven650

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That stuff, '10 reasons' in Stronzo's initial post is really funny. I just feel ashamed to be straight when so many straight people have their heads up their arses. Can you imagine how it felt to be german with jewish friends and family when the Nazi party was gaining power?????????????????????

WHY???????????????? is the world mostly populated by idiots and cowards?
 

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Dr Rock said:
as it's calculated to. this is primarily why organized religion remains so dangerous even in an age in which most of us are supposedly well-informed enough to know better.

While I anticipated your scrutiny to that post as I wrote it I will still tell you that I'm not so nearly ready to throw out all tradition as you are. Try initiating a substantive thread other than "thread pairs" and I'll pay attention to what you say. :rolleyes: Until then you are, often, simply the resident troll.

You may be clever and bright from time to time but you lack what I consider to be a two very basic virtuous human traits;

kindness and decency

More often than not you simply come off as a malcontented asshole much as madame_zora follows you around with her nose up your ass like some gremlin groupee.

madame_zora said:
Ugh, so true
 

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Stronzo said:
While I anticipated your scrutiny to that post as I wrote it I will still tell you that I'm not so nearly ready to throw out all tradition as you are.
yeah, well that's your problem, kiddo. those of us who are more interested in progress than personal insecurity won't be missing ya.

you lack what I consider to be a two very basic virtuous human traits;

kindness and decency
shows what a capable judge of character you are huh :rolleyes:

More often than not you simply come off as a malcontented asshole
then it's been worth the effort
 

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Yes fuck New york I felt shocked and sad. To my friend Stronzo i admire your passion for whats going on in the world today. We live to fight another day my friend It aint over yet . Not by a long shot
 

LeeEJ

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Riven650 said:
WHY???????????????? is the world mostly populated by idiots and cowards?
Well, you know how the results of standardized tests (SAT, ACT, etc) always end up as a bell curve?

There's a lot of idiots under the not-so-smart side of those graphs.

Actually, my ex and I both scored far to the "smart" end. That was when we realized that when you're in the 95th percentile, that means that 95% of everyone else is dumber than yourself.

Replace "intelligence" with, say, "emotional & sexual maturity", and it's pretty easy to see that the people who are immature and insecure populate most of a similar bell curve.
 

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Dr Rock said:
yeah, well that's your problem, kiddo. those of us who are more interested in progress than personal insecurity won't be missing ya.

Jesus. Sweeten up. You're obnoxious.

You're not interested in 'progess'. You're only interested in bitching. You sit back and pot shot with groundless arrogance yet have nothing constructive to contribute but your defeatest view of the human species. And what you're in your mid-twenties? I'm sensing a latter-day unabomber here.:rolleyes:

Yup. You're our resident sage you are. Just ask you.:rolleyes:

uncut said:
To my friend Stronzo i admire your passion for what's going on in the world today. We live to fight another day my friend It aint over yet

It's worth all the effort my man. There's no such thing as wasted effort. I've been heartened my most of the responses to this thread and the bolstering of kind fellow posters both gay and straight in private pm.
 

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madame_zora said:
Ugh, so true. The beginning of the end of my association with the church was brought about by someone I knew well and trusted who just asked me if my church tended to play more upbeat songs right before they took up the offering. I defended my church saying "No, of course not", but then I watched and listened for the next few weeks. Damned if it wasn't true.

Tradition, familiarity, ritual- these are things that human beings are wired to be attracted to. It's a safety net and makes us feel comforted. It's not the scary, confrontational place where we have to make decisions and will be judged based on those decisions, it's the place where everything happens one certain way, so as long as you do things that way, you'll be judged right. The problem is that we're so vunerable in our "relaxed state" that we aren't using our otherwise decent powers of perception THERE. I wasn't either, so I can see how dangerous this stuff really is when it is used by politicians for selfish goals. Decent, honest people just aren't looking for bad guys at church, so they more readily accept anything being said there as truth and good.

Religion causes some people to want to do good things and treat each other well, and I'm all in favor of that. If they're doing so because they believe that is the will of God, I have no problem with that either. What I have a HUGE problem with is when people use their religion as a way to elevate the importance of their OPINIONS over others. That's bullshit and it needs to stop, or human beings will never make it out of the dark ages.
You left your church because they played upbeat songs before collection Your a salesmens dream:biggrin1:
 

Lordpendragon

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madame_zora said:
Religion causes some people to want to do good things and treat each other well, and I'm all in favor of that. If they're doing so because they believe that is the will of God, I have no problem with that either. What I have a HUGE problem with is when people use their religion as a way to elevate the importance of their OPINIONS over others. That's bullshit and it needs to stop, or human beings will never make it out of the dark ages.

Chill Stronzo - you'll give yourself haemorrhoids.

MZ - religion doesn't own the patent rights to making people do good things and most of the nazis would have considered themselves good christian folk.

I share your HUGE problem, which is why I made the original comment. In my country less than 4% of people attend a church, yet they still want to tell people how to run their lives. I do not see the connection between blind faith in a deity and human morality.

I would also say that you can not have a rational discussion with someone who takes a fundamentalist position - i.e. I believe in god and my religion's interpretation of god - IMO you don't just trade your soul but the independence of your mind also.
 

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Stronzo said:
You're obnoxious.
:rolleyes: pot, i don't know if you've met kettle already

You sit back and pot shot with groundless arrogance yet have nothing constructive to contribute but your defeatest view of the human species.
yawn. this is the INTERNET; you don't know WHAT i do or have done.

ps. it's only "arrogance" when it's unjustified :rolleyes:

Lordpendragon said:
MZ - religion doesn't own the patent rights to making people do good things and most of the nazis would have considered themselves good christian folk.
the nature of humankind is such that good people will always do good things and evil people will always do evil things. in order to get good people to do evil things, you need to add religion.
 

DC_DEEP

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Never underestimate the power of political action groups, especially if they are against freedoms and rights for all citizens. Please see my post in Etc Etc about "who is making your sexual decisions for you"... when confronted with dollars and threats, politicians will, almost without fail, cave in. The other side has solidarity and money. We don't.