Fuck Ronald Reagan...or

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midlifebear

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One thing that still leaves me in amazement is the outright illegal actions of the Oliver North crowd and how they were summarily given a pass by Reagan. Oliver North a great patriot? If you believe that lie I've got some prime real estate in the middle of the sagebrush steppe you all might be interested in buying. Let's see how gullible you really are.
 
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One thing that still leaves me in amazement is the outright illegal actions of the Oliver North crowd and how they were summarily given a pass by Reagan. Oliver North a great patriot? If you believe that lie I've got some prime real estate in the middle of the sagebrush steppe you all might be interested in buying. Let's see how gullible you really are.

Amazed? The 'Law and Order' crowd well let's just say 'Law and Order' is for the little people.

 

JustAsking

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One thing that still leaves me in amazement is the outright illegal actions of the Oliver North crowd and how they were summarily given a pass by Reagan. Oliver North a great patriot? If you believe that lie I've got some prime real estate in the middle of the sagebrush steppe you all might be interested in buying. Let's see how gullible you really are.

The Ollie North affair was the first time I was aware of how much ultra conservatives hate The Constitution.
 

bek2335

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The spirit of conservatism, as we now practice it in our country, is negative, defensive and protects the interests of the rich and already privileged. The religious right is downright frightening. Democrats and liberals are far from perfect, but at least some of them are humanists and try to be progressive.

I believe that the Reagan years were the period of time - during my life at least,- and I'm in my middle 50s - when this country started to go wrong. We are beginning to recover, I hope, as we were badly set back by the last 8 years under the Bush administration.
 

B_Nick4444

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“Nations are a product and instrument of ambition” rambled one of my prep school instructors (and it was a ramble, as it had nothing to do with the class we were sitting in), so it follows that national identities are forged by the shared identities of individuals in common, living, working, and conversing to a common cause, to a common goal; Hence, the distinctions and divisions that are made by one people from another in furtherance of their destiny. Very good examples are the passages from Leviticus, exhorting the listener not to do what the other tribes are doing, and thus to distinguish themselves from them. Native Americans defined their group affiliations by the behavior and practices followed by the individual – hence, if one practiced Apache rituals and behaviours, one was an Apache, as opposed to say, a Crow, or Cherokee.
We therefore find England at this juncture, the era of the colonization of America, expansive in aim, requiring a commensurately strong identity of its citizenry to accomplish these expansive aims of extracting wealth from the rest of the world, dominating and enslaving the non-English, but at the same time partaking of Christianity, which requires that all men be respected. How to resolve the contradictions?
From the historical record, it appears that England chose the route of re-defining the subjects of their enslavement, redefining them as something other than fully human. Analogues that come to mind are the Nazi redefinitions of non-Aryans, the women’s lib movement redefining the human fetus as non-human. As “things” less than human, they could therefore be accorded less rights, and legal protections, indeed could be extinguished without further ado – hence the ovens of Auschwitz, and the legalization of abortion.
One of the first efforts was by the Queen Mother herself, Elizabeth I, who issued proclamations and warrants ordering and authorizing the ouster of blacks from the realm, most notably during the time of food scarcities owing to bad harvests, when she redefined the blacks as “infidels”.
Later, we have in 1677 another notable, one of the founders of the Royal Society, Sir William Petty, who published “The Scale of Creatures” arguing an observable gradation among the different races of man, describing the gradation in difference between Africans and Europeans not only in terms of “Collour, which is as white differs from black … They differ also in their Naturall Manners, and in the internall Qualities of their Minds.” The White Man's Burden: Historical ... - Google Book Search
David Hume, in the 1853 footnote to his essay “Of National Characters” stated: “I am apt to suspect the Negroes and, in general, all the other species of men (for they are four or five different kinds) to be naturally inferior to the whites. There never was a civilized nation of any other complexion than white, nor even any individual, eminent either in action or speculation........... In Jamaica indeed they talk of one negroe as a man of parts and learning, but ’tis likely he is admired for very slender accomplishments, like a parrot, who speaks a few words plainly”.
Also: “Estwick fervently believed in the inferiority of blacks so that he might justify a defense of slavery against a powerful abolitionist movement. While he argued that England’s prosperity and independence might be maintained if the House of Lords permitted slavery to be confined to America, Estwick also urged the House of Lords to prohibit the importation of blacks into England in order to preserve the race of Britons from stain and contamination (94-95)” http://books.google.com/books?id=0lddM6yMRKAC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=Samuel+Estwick+%E2%80%9CConsiderations+on+the+Negroe+Cause%E2%80%9D+(1772)&source=web&ots=ldOkiSj60-&sig=FpxVKA4PQEINppH19h4_XKqC-DQ&hl=en&ei=BFWWSfHlLteitgfkzt2oCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA19,M1

Then, of course, one of the more famous is Edward Long, Jamaican Planter and judge. (I won’t quote this one, as it’s too disturbing and offensive, but research his “History of Jamaica” (1774).
So the wealthy and powerful of England had redefined Africans as something worthy and deserving of less than equal treatment as part of their national movement to acquire wealth and empire. It had begun earlier, during the Elizabethan reign, and was widespread throughout English society (though the examples I cite date to times after the colonization of America had begun).
It is a universal of human societies however, that the strongest adherents of the national ideology binding the people together are those who benefit the most, the higher classes, and those less adherent are those who don’t enjoy the same degree of benefit – the lower classes.
Fifty to seventy-five per cent of the English immigrants to the American colonies arrived as indentured servants, comprised of Englishmen in debt, criminals in lieu of a death sentence, orphans sold off by their parishes, and, of course, the poor who simply tried to avoid starving.
Edmund Morgan, Yale University’s Sterling Professor Emeritus, describes indentured servitude as the model for slavery in Virginia. As practiced, it legitimized physical violence to compel work production; When Africans were first delivered to Virginia, they were indentured servants, “…and a significant number of African slaves even won their freedom through fulfilling a work contract or for converting to Christianity. Some successful free people of color, such as Anthony, acquired slaves or indentured servants themselves. To many historians, among them, Edmund Morgan, this evidence suggests that racial attitudes were much more flexible in 17th century Virginia than they would subsequently become.” Slavery in Colonial America: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article
So, you have the dynamic appearing in early colonial America, of white Englishmen from the lower strata of English society, who therefore would not be expected to strongly adhere to the ideology of the ruling classes, thrown in with Africans, at the same tier in society. Intermingling would have been the natural and expected result, and was in fact observed (see, e.g., Blacks in Colonial America - Google Book Search, “.. Mixed couples were not uncommon on the streets of Philadelphia….”; hence, the need for prohibitions against it (intermarriage) to preserve the emerging economic benefit that obtained from the developing practice of slavery.
In fact, the logic of the new republic would have dictated that creating a singular people would have made for a stronger nation: “…By the time of the American Revolution, somewhere between 60,000 and 120,000 people of “mixed” heritage resided in the colonies. During his presidency, Thomas Jefferson begged Americans to consider “let[ting] our settlements and [Indians’] meet and blend together, to intermix, and become one people” (2). American patriot Patrick Henry even proposed that intermarriage between whites and Indians be encouraged through the use of tax incentives and cash stipends (3)….” The American Melting Pot? Miscegenation Laws in the United States | Barbara C. Cruz and Michael J. Berson | OAH Magazine of History
Fernand Braudel has said, speaking of the cruelties, and legitimizing ideology of slavery:
Such hardships are not to be laid at the door simply of the planters, the mine-owners, the moneylending merchants of the Consulado in Mexico City or elsewhere, the harsh officials of the Spanish crown, the sugar- and tobacco-dealers, the slave-traders, or the grasping captains of trading vessels.... they were essentially middlemen, agents for other people.... In reality the root of the evil lay back across the Atlantic, in Madrid, Seville, Cadiz, Lisbon, Bordeaux, Nantes or Genoa, without question in Bristol, and in later years Liverpool, London and Amsterdam. (Braudel, 1984, p. 393).

It took a while, but Americans finally got back on track.
 

B_Nick4444

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Ah yes, because that had nothing to do with people committing more crime. Mostly Americans, I'd imagine?

yes -- the Americans lives impacted by the policies of the liberal welfare state.
the impact is felt by all definable sub-groups, but seems to have particularly hit hard our "black" citizens: "As Tom Sowell has pointed out, as late as 1970 most black children were raised in two parent families. By 1995 one third were." CURE | Culture of responsibility is culture of life

I thought I'd locate some statistics demonstrating the correlation between growing up fatherless, and the likelihood of ending up in prison, but it seems to be a given of current sociological literature

again, an explosion of fatherless sons following enactment of the Great Society Programs, and a subsequent explosion in prison populations -- quite obvious, really


Maybe, maybe not but right now it's impossible to be sure one way or another.

a task of economic forecasting -- the Obama programs' impacts have been projected and found lacking

more than likely, when recovery is obtained, it will have been the fortuitous impact of forces and dynamics outside of his interventions


Unlikely, but my crystal ball is in the shop. I figure you're a closet isolationist, your world view is positively myopic. Get some glasses. :wink:


I'm sorry I am not a fan of globalism

I find it difficult to approve the transfer of wealth and technology to countries like japan, who then bribe banana republics to resume whaling, and the slaughter of porpoises and dolphins

or the increase in wealth that fuels the trade in endangered animals for asian consumption, the resurrection of the baby seal hunt in Canada, again for asian consumption

the deforestation of Africa, and the establishment of the bushmeat trade by asian logging companies to support that logging

or, the transfer of wealth and technology to countries like china who then use that wealth and technology to map out strategies of militarization of space, internet hacking, nuclear missile launch platforms from space, sea, and ground, thus threatening not only china's neighbors, but the USA, as well, thus also initiating an asian arms race, and a race to militarize space

I am sorry I cannot approve the de-industrialization of America, and the subsequent loss of jobs, economic strength and security, or the requisite corruption of our political system by paid agents and lobbyists for foreign powers

Most heartily, I cannot approve the dissolution of American values to enable support for globalism

and, of course, globalism's destructive impact on cultures and societies outside of the USA

I do tend to be myopic and narrow-minded about things like that
 

slurper_la

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I'm sorry I am not a fan of globalism

I find it difficult to approve the transfer of wealth and technology to countries like japan, who then bribe banana republics to resume whaling, and the slaughter of porpoises and dolphins

or the increase in wealth that fuels the trade in endangered animals for asian consumption, the resurrection of the baby seal hunt in Canada, again for asian consumption

the deforestation of Africa, and the establishment of the bushmeat trade by asian logging companies to support that logging

or, the transfer of wealth and technology to countries like china who then use that wealth and technology to map out strategies of militarization of space, internet hacking, nuclear missile launch platforms from space, sea, and ground, thus threatening not only china's neighbors, but the USA, as well, thus also initiating an asian arms race, and a race to militarize space

I am sorry I cannot approve the de-industrialization of America, and the subsequent loss of jobs, economic strength and security, or the requisite corruption of our political system by paid agents and lobbyists for foreign powers

Most heartily, I cannot approve the dissolution of American values to enable support for globalism

and, of course, globalism's destructive impact on cultures and societies outside of the USA

I do tend to be myopic and narrow-minded about things like that

wow, congratulations.

so why is it then that all of your other posts so readily accept and approve of the work of the neo-cons in the republican party?
 

dreamer20

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One of the first efforts was by the Queen Mother herself, Elizabeth I, who issued proclamations and warrants ordering and authorizing the ouster of blacks from the realm, most notably during the time of food scarcities owing to bad harvests, when she redefined the blacks as “infidels”...
http://books.google.com/books?id=0l...=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA19,M1

LOL at "Queen Mother".
Elizabeth I had not chick nor child as she was "of barren stock".
 

bigman420

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Ronald Reagan was a great president and all of the prosperity this country saw while Clinton, who was a complete disaster, was in office, was a trickle down effect of Reaganomics.
 

BobLeeSwagger

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I won't bother to rehash the cult of Reagan and the overreaction to it, but I would like to make the point that Reagan really was NOT a neocon, at least not by the definition we think of it now.

He tried to bring some peace to Lebanon, but when he realized that both sides were butchers that couldn't be reasoned with, he pulled the Marines out rather than waste more lives there. Neocons didn't learn anything from this.

He also talked tough on the Soviets, but negotiated nuclear arms reductions the opportunity presented itself. Not exactly what Wolfowitz and Bolton would approve of.
 

dong20

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LOL at "Queen Mother".
Elizabeth I had not chick nor child as she was "of barren stock".

Likewise. :smile:

He's tried this nonsense at least once before. I mean the proclamations themselves are a matter of record - Elizabeth issued them ... only not really. What I mean is, to understand the causal factors behind them, and what they actual sought to achieve (or cover up) one needs to dig a little deeper.

Nick however, seeks the sound bite.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Ronald Reagan was a great president and all of the prosperity this country saw while Clinton, who was a complete disaster, was in office, was a trickle down effect of Reaganomics.

Devil's Advocate Time!
So, in other words... if "Trickle Down Economics" is indeed the real reason why we experienced economic prosperity by the end of the Clinton era (which we all know wasn't), that means it's going to take at average of 12 YEARS for Americans to be able to experience the results of it? Certainly there has to be a faster way. I mean, you think the less fortunate could wait more than a decade to see a job after they lost one, or receive any governmental assistance if they actually needed it?

For a "bigman" you seem to have a very small brain. Let's hope none of your cat-scans never make it to your profile because you'll probably be called a faker. :rolleyes:
 

B_Nick4444

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LOL at "Queen Mother".
Elizabeth I had not chick nor child as she was "of barren stock".

result of sloppy rushed editing

the original unedited post credited her with being the mother of the mythos of the emergent imperial British character

that creation entailed the making of the distinction between what is English, and what is not, as part of the process of defining the English destiny, and English entitlements

part of that process, of course, involves defining and characterizing what is NOT English

an articulation beyond the initial recognition that these are my people, and these are not my people

Likewise. :smile:

I mean the proclamations themselves are a matter of record - Elizabeth issued them ... only not really. What I mean is, to understand the causal factors behind them, and what they actual sought to achieve (or cover up) one needs to dig a little deeper.

if by this you mean the Queen was not issuing edicts based on a racist agenda, fully formed like Venus from the sea, along the lines of the Nazi final solution programs, South African apartheid, of USA Jim Crow lines, no -- I would have been astonished if she had

that would have to await the fuller articulations and delineations created by subsequent generations

that was the point -- the ideology of racial supremacy was a development of thought. historically, one can begin, at the "official" level (designated loosely) with the Elizabeth I proclamations through to Edward Long, and subsequently

you mention that other thread -- that is where I pointed out the converse development. by the time of Jefferson white supremacy was the norm among English elites (which included Jefferson), and the contrary notions were just beginning to be articulated by the American Quakers, premised on the undiluted teachings of Christianity
 

B_Nick4444

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It's already too late. The unstoppable slide has begun.
The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism


somewhat difficult to respond to this one, as the book is not out yet, and, of course, I have not yet read it, but from what I can gather, the fellow is simply applying Reinhold Niebuhr inspired analysis to the current situation

not surprisingly, this is going to fall into an anti-American liberal tirade, more ideological, than factual, like everything else liberal

but we shall see
 

dong20

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if by this you mean the Queen was not issuing edicts based on a racist agenda, fully formed like Venus from the sea, along the lines of the Nazi final solution programs, South African apartheid, of USA Jim Crow lines, no -- I would have been astonished if she had

Interesting selections ... Freudian?

the ideology of racial supremacy was a development of thought. historically, one can begin, at the "official" level (designated loosely) with the Elizabeth I proclamations through to Edward Long, and subsequently

Well on that subject, in his day Edward Long had a broadly similar view the Klan did some years later, although they had the useful distinction of being American. His one redeeming legacy being genuinely useful and inciteful historical record of events in that region - immediately prior to the American Revolution. As for the Klan ... nothing much springs to mind.

As for Elizabeth I being the root of 'Anglo Saxon>British' racial divisivness, that's unlikely. There is evidence one must reach somewhat further back for that, around 1200 years actually.

It was of a somewhat different nature, certainly a little less well ... documented so I suppose acceptance could depend on one's definition of 'official'. Truth be told, it's not entirely accepted - but 'bitter' pills sometimes take a while to swallow, don't they.

Regardless, like many you appear to have fallen into the common trap of thinking 'racism' is about skin colour. That particular flavour had to wait in line for for its say in the sun.

you mention that other thread -- that is where I pointed out the converse development. by the time of Jefferson white supremacy was the norm among English elites (which included Jefferson), and the contrary notions were just beginning to be articulated by the American Quakers, premised on the undiluted teachings of Christianity

And for good reason - one of my strongest amusements in that thread was your fallacious blather about ficticious legislation, and the outright denial of the existence of key race relations legislation even when the text of the Act was put in front of you! Your credibility took a dive that day, although it wasn't a high dive, it must be said.

As for the rest; it is of course a matter of historical record that US race relations embarked on an immediate and sustained period of improvement immediately after independence, to reach the near state of perfection they are today. Or, if I'm mistaken and that's not true, who will you blame? Jim Crow [et al] has come home to roost, again.

I forgot how this thread turned to race relations, but of course [yet again] it was you blaming the British for events two, three and four hundred years ago. I'd imagine you a closet Reaganite or perhaps not since he got on well with Thatcher and that wouldn't do. Besides, being British she must be responsible for something ... anything that may be wrong in contemporary America.*

*Actually, she was responsible for a great deal, although probably not US race relations.