Gay Adoption ...

Knockernail

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Twenty four years ago, my partner and I adopted two brothers. They were the younges of 5 kids who's mother, our housekeeper, had passed away. Her kids were farmed out to family members and nobody wanted the littlest one's since they were in diapers. We took them and raised them. Oh, I didn't mention, they're black. We made sure they continued contact with their family, i.e. aunts, uncles and cousins but, they knew them but also knew that we were their dad's.
They were raised in a loving home. There was never a discussion of our being gay, they knew it. There was never any problems with their friends teasing and tormenting them about their 'queer daddies' they wouldn't have put up with it.
We raised them with respect love and support and values and they in return have provided us with 5 beautiful grandchildren. Both of them were in the service the oldest in the Navy and the youngest in the army. And the younges is just back from his 2nd tour in Iraq. And the way this president is fucking around it looks like he may be going back, and I hate that.

It is great to hear (read) something like that.

I take my hat off to you both. My partner and I have talked about adoption and we came to the conclusion that we are far too selfish with our lifestyle. We would not be prepared to make the sacrificies involved and therefore it would not be fair on the kids who are the most important part of all this. Sad on our part but realistic we think.

Your story brought a lump to my throat and a tear to my eye.

Hey Daverock. Do you know how goes this matter in Spain? I must recognise that i don´t know a thing about it.

By the way, if you want to adopt NIC, you must know that he likes to stroke himself. Probably he´ll close the toilet´s door and´ll stay in there for long times. Are you willing? :tongue:

My own view is that when it comes to placement for adoption the best interests of young people ought to come first and really take precedence over the rights of adoptive parents. Young people usually benefit from having both male and female role models as they tend to learn different things from men and women. It took a constipated sounding vicar's wife to point this out on Question Time the other night, but I think there was a lot of truth in what she had to say.

I grew up with no gender role models. With my father gone and my mother out.

I´m open-minded, i like to respect everybody, i´m a good person and i have values. (I know it can sound fake, said by me). I have missed, still do it, just one thing: love. The feeling of somebody caring for me; of somebody scolding me when it´s required; of somebody teaching me things, no matter how stupid can be that things; the feeling of somebody being there just for me. This is what i miss.

What do you value of what your parents gave to you? What do you think your sons (if there are) hope of you?
 

Nelly Gay

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My own view is that when it comes to placement for adoption the best interests of young people ought to come first and really take precedence over the rights of adoptive parents. Young people usually benefit from having both male and female role models as they tend to learn different things from men and women. It took a constipated sounding vicar's wife to point this out on Question Time the other night, but I think there was a lot of truth in what she had to say.


Most families these days lack a father so your argument that "both male and female role models" are beneficial is untenable.
Gay men and lesbians have heterosexual parents yet still become homosexuals.
The vicar's wife in question was Anne Atkins who has been censored by the press complaints board for her opinions and her "truth" .
Next, please !
 

Adrian69702006

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Sorry but I have to disagree. Whilst there will always be exceptions to the general rule, it nevertheless holds true that young people thrive best when with male and female parents - especially ones who happen to be married - rather than 'living together' as is increasingly the case nowadays.

Did anyone read the letter ijn yesterday's London Times from the Rt Rev Vincent Nicholls outlining why Catholic adoption agencies operate the policies that they do? If you haven't it certainly repays a good read. He makes it very clear that the policies in question have nothing to do with homophobia or discrimination on the bounds of sexuality (something the RC Church teaches to be wrong) but everything to do with the best interests of the young people being placed for adoption. Surely that has to come first?

I know the vicar's wife on Question Time was Anne Atkins and she made out what to me was a moderate, sensible, and well argued case. I don't know in what context she's been censored but her views seemed reasonable enough to me, expressed in the way that they were.
 

Nelly Gay

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Sorry but I have to disagree. Whilst there will always be exceptions to the general rule, it nevertheless holds true that young people thrive best when with male and female parents - especially ones who happen to be married - rather than 'living together' as is increasingly the case nowadays.

Did anyone read the letter ijn yesterday's London Times from the Rt Rev Vincent Nicholls outlining why Catholic adoption agencies operate the policies that they do? If you haven't it certainly repays a good read. He makes it very clear that the policies in question have nothing to do with homophobia or discrimination on the bounds of sexuality (something the RC Church teaches to be wrong) but everything to do with the best interests of the young people being placed for adoption. Surely that has to come first?

I know the vicar's wife on Question Time was Anne Atkins and she made out what to me was a moderate, sensible, and well argued case. I don't know in what context she's been censored but her views seemed reasonable enough to me, expressed in the way that they were.

Have you any evidence that supports your theory that young people thrive best when male and female parents (who happen to be married) are involved ? I would have thought such parenthoods are a rarity these days with single mothers, multiple marriages et al being seemingly the norm .
Few families these days are ideal nuclear families ; the father often being totally absent .
Atkins used to wrie for "The Daily Express" but, thankfully no longer.
She was censured for stating catergorically that gay men die younger and mentioned the age of 43 . She was rebuked and could not prove her crackpot theories ...
Anne Atkins explains why so many people desert the church in droves sadly .
 

kalipygian

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Sorry but I have to disagree. Whilst there will always be exceptions to the general rule, it nevertheless holds true that young people thrive best when with male and female parents - especially ones who happen to be married - rather than 'living together' as is increasingly the case nowadays.

Did anyone read the letter ijn yesterday's London Times from the Rt Rev Vincent Nicholls outlining why Catholic adoption agencies operate the policies that they do? If you haven't it certainly repays a good read. He makes it very clear that the policies in question have nothing to do with homophobia or discrimination on the bounds of sexuality (something the RC Church teaches to be wrong) but everything to do with the best interests of the young people being placed for adoption. Surely that has to come first?

I know the vicar's wife on Question Time was Anne Atkins and she made out what to me was a moderate, sensible, and well argued case. I don't know in what context she's been censored but her views seemed reasonable enough to me, expressed in the way that they were.

Sounds like they are claiming they are not doing exactly what they are doing. Nothing new.

You appear to be claiming the RC church teaches homophobia and discrimination are wrong. I am not very up on their present situation in Britain, but that is certainly not the case here.

They are very active in putting their resources toward obstructing any lessening of those. All Archbishops and Bishops who practiced respect and inclusivity were removed by the previous pontiff. An example was Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen of Seattle. The rest were bullied into conforming. The gay catholic organisation Dignity was banned. Estimates are that the clergy is 20 to 50 percent gay, a very strangely conflicting situation for a homphobic institution.

Here in Alaska they raised tens of thousands of dollars(the mormons far outspent them, they contributed $600,000.) towards supporting a discriminatory constitutional amendment(it is such a distinction to be part of the only group the state constitution specifically denies equal rights to). At the time they said they were for equal rights for GLBT people, we just weren't allowed to used the word marraige, they have since demostrated they were being hypocritical in this. The Archdiocese here had their legal team file an amicus brief opposing a court case seeking equal treatment for GLBT families in partnership benefits. That would have continued to deny medical coverage and survivor benefits to the children as well as the partners.

I myself attended parochial school, and have friends (even in orders) and relatives who are very active, so my perspective is not just from the outside.
 

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Have you any evidence that supports your theory that young people thrive best when male and female parents (who happen to be married) are involved ? I would have thought such parenthoods are a rarity these days with single mothers, multiple marriages et al being seemingly the norm .
Few families these days are ideal nuclear families ; the father often being totally absent .
Atkins used to wrie for "The Daily Express" but, thankfully no longer.
She was censured for stating catergorically that gay men die younger and mentioned the age of 43 . She was rebuked and could not prove her crackpot theories ...
Anne Atkins explains why so many people desert the church in droves sadly .

What more can I say?

I would just like to stress your point made in the first paragraph. So many families are made up on the basis of multiple marriages where you don't know which kid belongs to which parent and from which marriage. Most seem to get along very well. Some don't.

Some marriages are a match made in heaven and some a match made in hell. Some men and some women make good parents and some make very bad ones be that within a traditional marriage or other living arrangement or in a single parent set up.

I would like to see some further evidence for the basis of Adrian's arguement other that the words of some anally rententive Vicar's wife.
 

D_Sheffield Thongbynder

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Twenty four years ago, my partner and I adopted two brothers. They were the younges of 5 kids who's mother, our housekeeper, had passed away. Her kids were farmed out to family members and nobody wanted the littlest one's since they were in diapers. We took them and raised them. Oh, I didn't mention, they're black. We made sure they continued contact with their family, i.e. aunts, uncles and cousins but, they knew them but also knew that we were their dad's.
They were raised in a loving home. There was never a discussion of our being gay, they knew it. There was never any problems with their friends teasing and tormenting them about their 'queer daddies' they wouldn't have put up with it.
We raised them with respect love and support and values and they in return have provided us with 5 beautiful grandchildren. Both of them were in the service the oldest in the Navy and the youngest in the army. And the younges is just back from his 2nd tour in Iraq. And the way this president is fucking around it looks like he may be going back, and I hate that.

You reaffirm my faith in mankind. Hugs. John
 

fortiesfun

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Sorry but I have to disagree. Whilst there will always be exceptions to the general rule, it nevertheless holds true that young people thrive best when with male and female parents - especially ones who happen to be married - rather than 'living together' as is increasingly the case nowadays.
If there were any evidence that this was fact, I might agree with you, but it has been shown to be silly propoganda almost from the start. Conservative researchers have specialized in comparing children raised in high income, highly educated homes with children reared by single mothers, single fathers, and divorced gay men with custody. They then claim, surprise, that of all the obvious differences the only one that matters is that the rich, pampered children were raised with both male and female married parents. Wealth and privilege have nothing to do with this outcome, they say. Of course it is bullshit. Once you factor away the income and class distinctions there is no reliable evidence that gay parents are any different from straight parents in any context.
 

Adrian69702006

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By way of reply to the demands for proof to support the idea that the best placements for young people seeking adoption are with married, heterosexual parents, I would say that I was simply stating what I understood to be true based on common sense and what I thought to be largely the view of the experts. However as I've already explained, there are bound to be exceptions as is the case with any general rule. So long as secular (and maybe other non-RC) adoption agencies are willing to place children with gay couples, in instances where that is the right thing to do, I don't see why Catholic adoption agencies shouldn't have an exemption to safeguard their beliefs and principles.

Here's a link to Archdiocese of Westminster's website in which the Archbishop explains the Catholic Church's position far better and more fully than I ever could.

Cardinal asks Prime Minister and Cabinet to exempt adoption agencies from Equalities Act - The Roman Catholic Diocese of Westminster

I hope this helps
 

DaveyR

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By way of reply to the demands for proof to support the idea that the best placements for young people seeking adoption are with married, heterosexual parents, I would say that I was simply stating what I understood to be true based on common sense and what I thought to be largely the view of the experts.

Sorry I don't buy that. I would not class Vicar's wives and the Catholic church as experts either on common sense or adoption.

Your original post, by implication, means that those kids raised by other than a married couple have had less than an ideal upbringing. I don't buy that either - I stick by my first reply to you. Those kids with the best start in life are raised by a parent or parents that love them dearly and teach them about life skills.
 

arktrucker

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You reaffirm my faith in mankind. Hugs. John


Thank you, Colonel.


As I read all of these responses and comments, it occurs to me that there is one thing that doesn't seem to come to the surface. Love.
It makes absolutley no difference who raises a child if there isn't love. Not the 'I love you' kind either. Love. Unconditional. It doesn't have to be said it's something that is felt. Something that you, just have.
Plenty of two sex parents can raise children. But if they don't love them what happens to the kid's
In our situation it was plain and simple. Their family didn't want them there was nothing else we could do. And if there is nothing else in my life that I've done that I can be proud of more it's raising these boys with my partner.
 
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Based on what I see daily as a teacher on the quality of parenting in our country, I would much rather see two quality same gendered partners raising a child responsibly in a loving home than the religious right approved parental model that is failing in all aspects. What is in the best interest of the child is a loving responsible home—not the gender of the adoptive parents. Orientation is biological, not learned, and should never be considered as the worth of a person.
 

DaveyR

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Thank you, Colonel.


As I read all of these responses and comments, it occurs to me that there is one thing that doesn't seem to come to the surface. Love.
It makes absolutley no difference who raises a child if there isn't love. Not the 'I love you' kind either. Love. Unconditional. It doesn't have to be said it's something that is felt. Something that you, just have.
Plenty of two sex parents can raise children. But if they don't love them what happens to the kid's
In our situation it was plain and simple. Their family didn't want them there was nothing else we could do. And if there is nothing else in my life that I've done that I can be proud of more it's raising these boys with my partner.


How could anyone read your posts about this subject and not think that you and your partner obviously made fantastic parents. To me that is far more preferable to some of the half-hearted attempts at parenthood I have witnessed from so called "conventional" couples.
 

Mr. Snakey

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In New jersey gays have been adopting for a while now with no problems . A parent is a parent. The kids need the home. I think its great!:smile:
 

fortiesfun

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By way of reply to the demands for proof to support the idea that the best placements for young people seeking adoption are with married, heterosexual parents, I would say that I was simply stating what I understood to be true based on common sense and what I thought to be largely the view of the experts.
I appreciate the respectful way you have registered your dissent in this thread, but I have to say again that the serious research on this topic does not support your view, not that of the RC Church in England. I highlighted the phrase in your post that most quickly caught my eye, because when you start from the "common sense" presumption that gays are less capable as parents it is hardly surprising that you arrive at the finding that agrees. (This, by the way, is absolutely not the majority view of experts.)

Unfortunately, this is exact what prejudice is. It is no different than the presumption that any human being is lesser in any other regard.

It was not long ago (in the US) that it was widely held that people of color and non-Christians should not be allowed to adopt because it was not in the interests of the children to be raised by anyone who was not in the social majority. A self-fulfilling prophecy that one, that was eventually dislodged only by civil rights legislation of the type the archbishop is asking to exempted from in England. Because he believes that homosexuals are lesser human beings (or even that his church believes such a thing) is not sufficient reason for being exempted or letting others make such placements. He has to demonstrate in responsible ways that his postion is not simple bigotry dressed up with some shoddy and and professionally rejected research.
 

dreamer20

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Did anyone read the letter in yesterday's London Times from the Rt Rev Vincent Nicholls outlining why Catholic adoption agencies operate the policies that they do?

Did that article address the R.C.Church's view of homosexuality as a mental disorder and its plan to use gay men as scapegoats for its recent child molestation scandals? An edict barring the ordination of gay priests is currently under review:

Vatican would bar gays from seminaries Christian Century - Find Articles

Excerpt:

"Prepared by the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education, which has oversight of seminaries, the guidelines are based on a longstanding church teaching that terms homosexuality an "objectively disordered" condition that could impair priests in performing their ministry.
Critics of the move say homosexuality should be a nonissue since all priests--gay or straight--are called to celibacy. They accuse the church of using gay men as a scapegoat for the church's sexual abuse scandal."

The R.C.Church clearly wants to deny same-sex couples the right to adopt even though these couples are capable of raising children just as well as heterosexual couples:

Independent Online Edition > UK Politics