Gay and Ugly - How superficial is the gay scene?

[joyboytoy79]

What precisely is the 'gay scene' or the 'gay community?'

If you don't like the guys who hang out at bars and clubs, don't go to bars and clubs. Don't impute your self-loathing acceptance of homophobic stereotypes to me or anyone else, please.

I kind of feel like a broken record on these forums sometimes. Gay people are exactly as diverse in appearance, background, and interests as straight people. We can be as mean, superficial, and vain as straight people. We can be as caring, discerning, and wise as straight people. Check your invidious distinctions at the door.

What he said.

Actually, exactly what he said.

Including the SAT vocab.

*swoons*

 

[eddyphobia]

Finally someone addresses this issue. To me it always seems like if you're not rail-thin,blonde,and twinkish looking then there is no chance of ever finding a partner.

Yes, it's true that societies have become more superficial and self-centered but in the gay community is much more prominent. When I flip the pages of gay magazines or free gay publishers, I see lots of good looking people and "superficial" contents such as ads for plastic surgeries, leasing new luxury cars, hair transplant, tan salon,workout trainers, latest fashion wear, etc. Some gays are brainwashed by it. It's sad that there are people who need to go for a mini-lipo, get a pec inplants, lease a BMW, charge their credit card for designer outfits and try to be all pretentious about it!

And it doesn't help either the way the community is portrayed in the mainstream media. They're either hunkish and tanned/blonde and blue eyed. For the exception of Cam & Mitch of Modern Family (at least they don't look like models) I've yet to see other realistic portrayals of gays and homosexual relationships. You can say it's the same case for straight characters, but really gays on TV are much much less diverse than what we really are.

Being fed with this imagery we (especially the younger crowd) start to believe that to be successful in dating/relationships, we HAVE to look like a certain type, and behave in such and such manner to be accepted in the community.

I gained self confidence and began to realize that I was letting my own biases get in the way. I was getting plenty of attention, just not from the hot, older guys I was interested in. Now, I'm happily in my mid-30's, chubbier, handsome is a good word for it and while well hung, I no longer prefer to "ruin the surprise".

Maybe it takes some time for a person to grow their confidence and realize that things are more than skin deep. As we grow we learn, I suppose.

And PFLAG, aren't they supposed to be Parents, Family and Friends of Lesbian and Gays? What is the purpose of their existence if they aren't being one? Maybe the guy turned to them on the first place because he received no support from his friends and family, and to be treated in that manner by a group that supposedly "promotes the health and well-being of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender persons, their families and friends through support" is unacceptable for me.

 

[Chase1600]

The world is superficial about these things. It isn’t right. Mostly we can’t change it. In small ways we can choose to not participate.

All that said, just one guy’s opinion here: it’s a rare person who can not be made attractive, who can not make himself, or herself, very attractive.

Use your television, look for them, you can find faces which should be ugly, but somehow, with grooming, attitude, fitness, whatever, people alter the impact and impression of isolated features to make themselves intriguing. The same with our bodies: we can with fitness, grooming, posture, attitude, manner, and more, come off as interesting and compelling persons despite faults.

Of course, nothing trumps being a genuinely intriguing person – becoming a person who infatuates, or charms, or attracts, or whatever, because of what we do, how we do it, how exciting and inviting it might be. Maybe for one of us, it is humor, another sports, another creativity, another authority, whatever, we can do it.

We should never underestimate the value of fitness and grooming when dealing with the shallow ways in which people respond. As a man who has done this for decades, at times allowing myself to slip, at times pulling it back together, through decades of aging, I assure you many people in general will be reasonably attracted if I’ve done my work, and inevitably I will become a non-person if I let myself go.

Even as a very aged person, maybe especially as a very aged person, I can be a non-person, or experience persons being attracted to me, truly, genuinely controlled by my choices as to how I will appear and seem.

Now, again, all that said, none of this is going to get me treated like a movie star in a room of 20 year old twinks in LA. I’m not talking about being able to enter a room and have everyone drop. I’m only discussing getting treated very well by the general public, maybe having some one nice person come up on occasion and make conversation; maybe now and then, someone compliments my appearance. I talking about getting one attractive lover, not an army of them – or maybe a good job offer and invitations to some social events. I’m talking about making oneself an appealing enough person that people might want to be around you.

If that is sufficient enough a goal, I’m here to say, it’s a rare, rare, person who can not be made attractive.

 

[Bbucko]

I watched the video posted in the OP to its conclusion only with great difficulty. Nearly everything he says in those 4+ minutes is undiluted bullshit; he's not nearly as self-actualized as he claims to be, and his opinion regarding gay rights is as infuriating as is the claims he makes regarding the "gay community".

I've lived out-and-proud since 1977. The only thing the "gay community" has in common is an orientation toward same-sex attraction. The video is especially ludicrous in that he's decrying stereotyping while at the same time stereotyping and making sweeping generalizations. I very nearly stopped watching when he said "gay rights without compassion is childish" . Equal rights for all citizens does not come with qualifiers if they're truly equal.

Just to section out men from the "gay community" (because there are real-life lesbians and bi-women in there, too), it's comprised of individuals and certain cultures. Anyone who isn't aware of Bear Culture or the Leather/Fetish Culture hasn't swum in the gay pool very long. I'm just picking these two cultures off the top of my head because, in order to fit into either one, you really can't be a rail-thin twink. Bears put a sexual premium on hairiness and corpulence, and Leather really isn't a young man's game. I wasn't credible in a leather bar until my mid-30s.

As to any Utopianist dream of eliminating superficiality from society: be the example you wish to see. Look inwards and assess your own criteria in finding someone else attractive before you begin decrying those of others because guess what: we all have them.

 

[D_John Quicky Adams]

I watched the video posted in the OP to its conclusion only with great difficulty. Nearly everything he says in those 4+ minutes is undiluted bullshit; he's not nearly as self-actualized as he claims to be, and his opinion regarding gay rights is as infuriating as is the claims he makes regarding the "gay community".

I've lived out-and-proud since 1977. The only thing the "gay community" has in common is an orientation toward same-sex attraction. The video is especially ludicrous in that he's decrying stereotyping while at the same time stereotyping and making sweeping generalizations. I very nearly stopped watching when he said "gay rights without compassion is childish" . Equal rights for all citizens does not come with qualifiers if they're truly equal.

Just to section out men from the "gay community" (because there are real-life lesbians and bi-women in there, too), it's comprised of individuals and certain cultures. Anyone who isn't aware of Bear Culture or the Leather/Fetish Culture hasn't swum in the gay pool very long. I'm just picking these two cultures off the top of my head because, in order to fit into either one, you really can't be a rail-thin twink. Bears put a sexual premium on hairiness and corpulence, and Leather really isn't a young man's game. I wasn't credible in a leather bar until my mid-30s.

As to any Utopianist dream of eliminating superficiality from society: be the example you wish to see. Look inwards and assess your own criteria in finding someone else attractive before you begin decrying those of others because guess what: we all have them.

You know what your right and reading some of the other comments on this tread really changed my mindset. I have a feeling that the "rail-thin twink" comment that I wrote earlier is gonna haunt me all over this thread haha

 

[sixtwo190]

What precisely is the 'gay scene' or the 'gay community?'

If you don't like the guys who hang out at bars and clubs, don't go to bars and clubs. Don't impute your self-loathing acceptance of homophobic stereotypes to me or anyone else, please.

I kind of feel like a broken record on these forums sometimes. Gay people are exactly as diverse in appearance, background, and interests as straight people. We can be as mean, superficial, and vain as straight people. We can be as caring, discerning, and wise as straight people. Check your invidious distinctions at the door.

Mr. Hockeysweat, I really like what you say. Keep saying it, maybe people will listen.

 

[Bbucko]

You know what your right and reading some of the other comments on this tread really changed my mindset. I have a feeling that the "rail-thin twink" comment that I wrote earlier is gonna haunt me all over this thread haha

And in my experience, both the Bear and Leather/Fetish scenes are extremely intolerant of racism. Mixed-race couples are actually a huge subsection of the Bear scene in particular

The "rail-thin twink" scene is really just a very minor subset of a much greater, nearly all-prevailing bar scene more generally, though with the internet one no longer needs a boozy environment in order to get laid. Personally I am rather turned off by the start-happy-hour-at-noon scene we have here in SoFla, so I don't partake.

There is an LGBT Church Culture (both MCC and within mostly-straight parishes like the UU), there's a huge Gym Culture, there are more gay conservatives than most would care to accept being possible, and they have a very distinct culture. There are hundreds of gay cultures and subcultures, if not thousands.

Some of these overlap (the Country/Western and Church cultures frequently go hand-in-glove, as do the Gay Male Chorus Culture and Church Culture), some don't so much (Leather Culture and Twink Culture are especially discordant). Some, like the HIV/AIDS Culture cut across all other social boundaries.

I easily accept gay cultures but insist that some monolithic Gay Community simply does not exist. Believing so in an exercise in lazy thinking, I think: it's definitely from outside my experience.

 

[D_John Quicky Adams]

And in my experience, both the Bear and Leather/Fetish scenes are extremely intolerant of racism. Mixed-race couples are actually a huge subsection of the Bear scene in particular

The "rail-thin twink" scene is really just a very minor subset of a much greater, nearly all-prevailing bar scene more generally, though with the internet one no longer needs a boozy environment in order to get laid. Personally I am rather turned off by the start-happy-hour-at-noon scene we have here in SoFla, so I don't partake.

There is an LGBT Church Culture (both MCC and within mostly-straight parishes like the UU), there's a huge Gym Culture, there are more gay conservatives than most would care to accept being possible, and they have a very distinct culture. There are hundreds of gay cultures and subcultures, if not thousands.

Some of these overlap (the Country/Western and Church cultures frequently go hand-in-glove, as do the Gay Male Chorus Culture and Church Culture), some don't so much (Leather Culture and Twink Culture are especially discordant). Some, like the HIV/AIDS Culture cut across all other social boundaries.

I easily accept gay cultures but insist that some monolithic Gay Community simply does not exist. Believing so in an exercise in lazy thinking, I think: it's definitely from outside my experience.

Damn. Thanks Bbucko. I didn't even know that all these different subcultures existed. I guess at me being only 23 I have a lot to learn though haha

 

[cocktaste]

I've found that gays who usually start threads like this have tried finding other gay men in places like bars, or in environments that contain vapid people of all sexual persuasions.

This is why gay men usually end up feeling lost. They don't look for people in "normal" "sound" places. Give me a good ol gay geek anyday!

 

[Russ311]

We are portrayed in today's media as being superficial and only caring about looks and body weight! Now I am gay, but do not have many gay friends at all. I can speak for myself that this image unfortunately influenced me while I was still in the closet. I am very obsessed with my appearance. I would never have surgery to change it, but I do work hard at keeping myself up. My boyfriend is much more comfortable in his skin than I am. He is very good looking, yet I fell in love with him, not his looks. But I fear if I let myself go he will leave me, even though I know that's not true. I have low self esteem though from being a chubby kid in early puberty and being teased about it.

Now I know that I am not really involved in the gay community, but from what I see when out is that there are couples of all shapes, ages, and races out there. So we are not superficial as they say. I see people together for love, not for looks. And a very good friend of mine here always tells me that I would be hot even if I was chubby or had no looks. I would love my boyfriend still if he gained weight or even if he lost a limb in an accident. We are like everyone else and fall in love with the person, not the looks!

 

[Kotchanski]

The moderating team would like to remind members that negative stereotyping and sweeping generalizations as an opinion are not against the rules but may move into territory of posts designed to be inflammatory and incite and/or hate speech, both of which are against the ToS.

 

[piratebulldog]

A very interesting thread. Thanks to the OP for presenting it for discussion and insight.
I recently was at a social event made up of a diverse group of people - elderly, young, straight, gay, men, women etc. - Yeah, it was a theater. Following the concert, I saw a group of young people circled around a man who was seated. He was extremely obese and about sixty plus years old. He was more or less holding court with a great deal of laughter and smiles all around. He greeted each new arrival with enthusiasm and remembrance of something special about them. Then some of the young men assisted him out of his chair and the group walked him outside and helped him into his car.

I was struck by the love and affection these young people had to the man. It turned out he had been their voice teacher. He was gay, obese, unattractive in appearance but clearly possessed a spirit and a 'heart' that drew respect, compassion, affection and attention from others.

In light of the discussion on this thread, I think that all people should consider what they bring to a group of people other than their physical selves. A genuine interest and respect for others, a spirit of enthusiasm and joy in life, a vocation and career that feeds and sustains you in a myriad of ways....These are what attracts people.

We tend to find that which we seek. If we find superficiality in others, we need to see if it is reflected in ourselves. The poor guy who lost his partner and then didn't find support in a PFLAG community would need to really examine why and how he was part of that community. It would be a rare thing for a support group not to show genuine support.

In any case, my two cents in a thread that offered far more profound statements. I am going to work at treating others a bit better after reading this thread. Thanks, OP for the video and for offering its ideas for discussion.

 

[Bbucko]

Damn. Thanks Bbucko. I didn't even know that all these different subcultures existed. I guess at me being only 23 I have a lot to learn though haha

That's just the tip of the iceberg, ty.

Perhaps I have encountered so many different gay cultures because the majority of my life has been spent living in urban areas with high, thriving LGBT populations. And, of course, different cultures come and go as time moves forward and we evolve and integrate more into mainstream society; certainly I came out in a very different place than we live today. Most of the changes have been positive, but there are times when I feel nostalgic for the outlaw status we all shared at one time

 

[Bbucko]

We tend to find that which we seek. If we find superficiality in others, we need to see if it is reflected in ourselves. The poor guy who lost his partner and then didn't find support in a PFLAG community would need to really examine why and how he was part of that community. It would be a rare thing for a support group not to show genuine support.

I keep forgetting to address that portion of the video.

I have direct experience with losing a partner back in 1992. At the time, I was living in France and I made the rather hasty decision of returning back to the US (Boston) immediately after the funeral. In hindsight I wish I'd considered the possibility of staying there more seriously.

When I left Paris, I lost all of the support network that I had built up there. Back home, I had many old friends (including a couple of exes with whom I remained on excellent terms) and my sister, who loves me dearly. But Americans handle death and grief really poorly; though I had everyone's sympathy, very few were willing to give me much of their time hearing me process my immense loss. And after a month or two, even that stopped.

I was astonished to learn, when I contacted the leading AIDS Service Organization (ASO), that there were no groups set up specifically to deal with issues of death and grief in Boston within their organization (in 1992: the height of the Dark Times ). I wound up cobbling together a small network of guys who'd experienced similar loss recently. We were the only people who'd listen to and comfort each other.

But, frankly, I did most of my deepest grieving alone, as do most other Americans: death and grief creep us out. PFLAG has many good aims, but helping a younger gay man deal with grief simply isn't one of them. Until we as a society can adopt a more positive approach to death and dying, grief will remain a very solitary affair.

 

[SR_Ethan Hunke]

First of all, society valuing appearance has never been anything new. Saying that it happens in the gay community is just a way to shift the horrible truth onto a persecuted group.

Sure we follow the old saying that the true beauty is on the inside, in fact when asked that we all usually give an answer along those lines. However we all know that to be a lie deep inside. WE would never look into the inner beauty of someone if their outward looks did not attract us. There are plenty of nice people in the world who get passed up for the more attractive ones.

So before society starts pointing finger about being superficial, they should take an honest look at themselves.

 

[B_deltaboy767]

Ya know for thoese of you saying the Gay Community is not superficial, is in self denial, and superficial themselves, and get on the defensive for being called out, as most any would do if called out. It's a well known fact that the Gay commuity has benn very superficial and shallow, Its in the media, in books, clubs, movies, and everywhere that puts a the community in the front lines. Im really tired of these self denial queers trying to defend what they know is wrong, and when called out ge on the defensive.
Face it, the gay community is VERY SUPERFICIAL, its all about sex, drugs, dick size, body type, and finding the next trick in the bar, Ive touched on this point sevral times.

 

[B_deltaboy767]

First of all, society valuing appearance has never been anything new. Saying that it happens in the gay community is just a way to shift the horrible truth onto a persecuted group.

Sure we follow the old saying that the true beauty is on the inside, in fact when asked that we all usually give an answer along those lines. However we all know that to be a lie deep inside. WE would never look into the inner beauty of someone if their outward looks did not attract us. There are plenty of nice people in the world who get passed up for the more attractive ones.

So before society starts pointing finger about being superficial, they should take an honest look at themselves.

You know that old tried and true saying? "External looks fade, inner beauty remains" Well so is true today, there are plenty of physically attractive people that are so damm ugly they reek. I think the only ones living the lies is the gays, why is it a heterosexual male can and will date a big girl or BBW, and the queers are so damm stuck on the smooth muscled bodys, or skinny hairless twinks? I believe you need to study the old saying, and realise that true beauty is, and always will be within, Inner beauty projects outward, Hunny this physical body WILL change!!!

 

[B_deltaboy767]

I've found that gays who usually start threads like this have tried finding other gay men in places like bars, or in environments that contain vapid people of all sexual persuasions.

This is why gay men usually end up feeling lost. They don't look for people in "normal" "sound" places. Give me a good ol gay geek anyday!

And where does a gay person look for other gays in, as you call it."normal" "sound" places? Gays are limited to meeting other if the same orientation in places like bars ect, Its not like gays have it written on their foreheads..

 

[eddyphobia]

And where does a gay person look for other gays in, as you call it."normal" "sound" places? Gays are limited to meeting other if the same orientation in places like bars ect, Its not like gays have it written on their foreheads..

I found my current boyfriend at school. :smile:

 

[Otep]

I found my current boyfriend at school. :smile:

As did I. We met my freshman year in college.