Gay Bar Attack

[B_Stronzo]

For those of you who may not have heard about the New Bedford Massachusetts 18 year old's neo-Nazi attack on gay patrons at a gay bar here in coastal Massachusetts please read here:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/02/03/attack_at_gay_bar_leaves_3_injured/

The fucktard was apprehended in Arkansas last night but not before he shot and killed a police officer and the female passenger riding in his car. Jacob Robida sustained critical gunshot wounds to the head. Also, check out his page at http://www.myspace.com/jakejekyll He's listed as "Jake Jekyll".

To date the Mormon Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Mitt Romney has said nothing about the attack. Both Senators Kennedy and Kerry have made statements encouraging current Hate Crime Legislation to include gay and lesbians.

I'm interested to know how much the rest of the country knows about this thing since it appears (oddly) not to have warranted national news coverage.

 

[D_Elijah_MorganWood]

I checked out the myspace page. What a piece of shit. Looks like he may go the way of his friend who was also a waste of DNA.

 

[EnglishGentleman]

If this isn't a hate crime I don't know what is. Seems like the piece of barely-human trash responsible couldn't decide who he hated the most to overcome his own self-loathing.

Prejudice of all kinds is evil, no matter who the (usually arbitrary) target is.

Thanks for the link Stronzo.

 

[GoneA]

i read about it and i was also going to post something here, as well. it really is a horrific tragedy and i feel more than sorry for all who were involved. what a psycho!!

 

[B_Stronzo]

If this isn't a hate crime I don't know what is. Seems like the piece of barely-human trash responsible couldn't decide who he hated the most to overcome his own self-loathing.

Prejudice of all kinds is evil, no matter who the (usually arbitrary) target is.

Thanks for the link Stronzo.

You're entirely welcome EG.

Latest news is that the "waste of DNA" (as Sorcerer so aptly put it) has died in hospital in Missouri. That should effectively put an end to it and middle America can continue to bury their heads in the sand with regard to human rights for all Americans.

I guess this event is singularly topical for me since my boyfriend and I frequent the bar where he wielded his hatchet and used his handgun. Brings this stuff dreadfully close to home. And in this day of not wanting to offend those 'fundies' living in the so-called "Bible belt" (and elsewhere) our 'esteemed' Governor Mr. Romney won't say a word to decry the events since he might offend his constituency who, in truth, would only accuse Jacob Robida of "misguidedly doing God's work". Beyond that Mr. Romney is in the running for Bush's job in 2008.

I went into Yahoo Chrisitan chat to see what the take was on this event and most told me that calling it a hate crime was "overreacting" to this thing.

And directly to my friend "EnglishGentleman"? May I apologize for the mood of these United States just now. We appear to be having a rather bad spell in our history. Please don't lose faith in us as a country. I trust in due time, "this too shall pass".

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

Wow, and I thought Massachusetts was really making a name for itself by allowing judicial acceptance of civil unions between gays and lesbians -- or did I just make that one up? I, too, can't see how this incident was justifiable or deserving of gubernatorial silence. Never mind that this kid fell through the cracks long ago, and could have really benefited from psychological treatment.

In the meantime, I hate to say it to all the shaved heads out there, but Nazism died as a viable political force along with Hitler. And as much as I appreciate white kids getting disillusioned about their powerlessness, they still forget that they comprise the majority on the upper echelons of politics, finance, economics, mercantilism, and technology. Even if the pool is starting to darken a bit thanks to wonderful racial amalgamation and ethnic unioning, that's no threat. Current unemployment rates, rising energy costs, the unavailability of alternative fuels, this whole war thing -- THOSE are the problems.

 

[EnglishGentleman]

And directly to my friend "EnglishGentleman"? May I apologize for the mood of these United States just now. We appear to be having a rather bad spell in our history. Please don't lose faith in us as a country. I trust in due time, "this too shall pass".

No apology needed in my own case, Stronzo. I and the intelligently minded people of this country don't blame the people of the US, just the intellectual Black Hole in the Oval Office and the intolerant religious fundamentalists who support & fund him. (Apologies go out to any singularities or event-horizons who might have been offended by that last comparison):wink:

The thought that we may get another of his kind to replace him sends chills down my spine. As I mentioned in a different thread.... I thought people who heard "Voices from God" got locked up in secure hospitals, not given the keys to the toy room.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Wow, and I thought Massachusetts was really making a name for itself by allowing judicial acceptance of civil unions between gays and lesbians -- or did I just make that one up?

Nope. You didn't make it up. I thought so too. But having had several days to ruminate over this thing Blackthorne I've come to the conclusion it's that very decision handed down by the Massachusetts Supreme Court mandating that the definition of marriage included same sex couples (not civil unions) is the very thing that has sparked this very sort of extreme reaction.


Did I think this could happen in Tulsa or Dallas? Yup ... I did. Did I think it could happen right here in liberal old Massachusetts at a bar I frequent?

Not in a million years. Yet, here we are.

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

No apology needed in my own case, Stronzo. I and the intelligently minded people of this country don't blame the people of the US, just the intellectual Black Hole in the Oval Office and the intolerant religious fundamentalists who support & fund him.

That comes off to me as extremely arrogant and misguided. Not all of the people who voted for him are as you say intolerant religious fundamentalists. Many people supported Bush because of his stance on limiting abortion, others because of his fiscal policy, others because of his monetary policy, others because they don't want to switch presidents during a war. You really cannot paint such a generalization of the Republican party, it really isn't fair. I myself am a civil libertarian so don't get me wrong, he pisses me off as well. But to generalize Americans like that is no better than those who are the fundamentalists and use derogatory terminology towards gays.

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

Nope. You didn't make it up. I thought so too. But having had several days to ruminate over this thing Blackthorne I've come to the conclusion it's that very decision handed down by the Massachusetts Supreme Court mandating that the definition of marriage included same sex couples (not civil unions) is the very thing that has sparked this very sort of extreme reaction.


Did I think this could happen in Tulsa or Dallas? Yup ... I did. Did I think it could happen right here in liberal old Massachusetts at a bar I frequent?

Not in a million years. Yet, here we are.

Intolerance is everywhere dude. You go to liberal Maine, and you will probably find just as much, if not MORE intolerance there, than you would in a place like Alabama. Neo-nazi's are all over the place, Neo-Commies are too. Extremism isn't always geographically based, oftentimes its just a buch of singular wackos who find other people like themselves and spew bullshit all over everything.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Intolerance is everywhere dude. You go to liberal Maine, and you will probably find just as much, if not MORE intolerance there, than you would in a place like Alabama. Neo-nazi's are all over the place, Neo-Commies are too. Extremism isn't always geographically based, oftentimes its just a buch of singular wackos who find other people like themselves and spew bullshit all over everything.

Maine's not what I'd call liberal. And you've missed my point entirely "dude".

Go to any "Christian chatroom" on Yahoo LINittanyLion and ask where those fun-filled little souls hail from. Nine tenths of them are from precisely the area I describe. You may not like it but it's fact.

And there's nothing very "singular" about that profile for Jake Robida at "myspace" I posted. It's pervasively annotated by those who are like-minded and live within a 5 mile radius of him.

Beyond that, may I respectfully suggest you live my reality before you blanketly condemn my take on this experience? Until you have you cannot imagine what your president Bush has done to marginalize gay and lesbian people, let alone undermine global opinion of this fine nation of ours.

And as for Mr. Bush's opinion on abortion rights??

Here's the thing: IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN ABORTION... DON'T HAVE ONE.

Pretty simple.

 

[B_Stronzo]

But to generalize Americans like that is no better than those who are the fundamentalists and use derogatory terminology towards gays.

Horseshit. "No better"? The hell we're not. The only thing we rebuke is the fascist nature of those referenced. When was the last time "dude" you heard of a gay or lesbian spewing hatred toward his heterosexual brethren (let alone attacking them with a hatchet and a handgun in their chosen place of recreation)??

If it barks like a dog, smells like a dog, and behaves like a dog. My money's on the fact it is a dog.

 

[EnglishGentleman]

Apologies where they are due. Not every Republican is a fool or a religious zealot and I apologise if I appeared to imply that.

Perhaps I was not clear enough to point out that my own feelings were directed specifically at those who wish to inflict their own opinions of right and wrong, based on mistranslated 1500 year old texts, upon others. Those who use the Republican Party and by extension the US Government to further their own personal agendas.

however...

Many people supported Bush because of his stance on limiting abortion, others because of his fiscal policy, others because of his monetary policy, others because they don't want to switch presidents during a war.

Bush's stance on "limiting abortion" is not supported widely outside your country and is seen by many at home and abroad as knee-jerk politics. If it weren't for it's controlled practice in Europe, we'd have alot more depressed Jerry Springer fodder over here wasting their lives as and having children they didn't want. It is, after all, not something someone does lightly and it is not offered to possible parents/mothers unless the potential child would be significantly disadvantaged.

Bush's Fiscal and Monetary policy has led America to greater foreign debt and further crumbling of social support & services according to what I have seen and read, though your domestic perspective may be different and I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.

The so-called-war? why do you think Bush and Blair started it? Great way of rallying the domestic masses and keeping your seat don't you think? Who cares if it's a fake war based on misinformation and lies? Who cares if 2000+ of your countrymen and 99 of mine have died for nothing? What does it matter that billions of dollars of public money have gone right down the drain? Who cares that one man has single handedly dragged your country's reputation through the mud as a result?

I may not be American, but I'm Human and therefore I must care. As such I am ashamed and appalled at the damage and pain one man can inflict without raising his hand.

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

Maine's not what I'd call liberal. And you've missed my point entirely "dude".

Go to any "Christian chatroom" on Yahoo LINittanyLion and ask where those fun-filled little souls hail from. Nine tenths of them are from precisely the area I describe. You may not like it but it's fact.

And there's nothing very "singular" about that profile for Jake Robida at "myspace" I posted. It's pervasively annotated by those who are like-minded and live within a 5 mile radius of him.

Beyond that, may I respectfully suggest you live my reality before you blanketly condemn my take on this experience? Until you have you cannot imagine what your president Bush has done to marginalize gay and lesbian people, let alone undermine global opinion of this fine nation of ours.

And as for Mr. Bush's opinion on abortion rights??

Here's the thing: IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN ABORTION... DON'T HAVE ONE.

Pretty simple.

Maine not liberal? Sure about that?

And where the fuck did I say I was a Bush supporter? I already told you I can't stand him and that I'm a Civil Libertarian. Don't go around and try to play the whole your president bullshit, because I didn't vote for him either. What I didn't appreciate was someone from another country referring to every republican as an evil religious zealot. That is media fabricated bullshit and you know it as well. I also didn't like your reference to the fact that just because your a Christian, you hate gays. Well guess what? I'm a Christian...a CATHOLIC. Do I hate gays and lesbians? No. Do I attack and demean gays and lesbians? No. Do I converse daily in a friendly matter with everyone here (minus trolls) regardless of sexual orientation? YES.

All I was doing was explaining why people voted for him. I don't need you to come in here on your high horse and demean me for explaining others actions. Don't take your frustration out on me. I didn't do anything. Common respect would be nice as well.

P.S. You can try to play the whole not my president spiel, but we live in a democracy where majority rules, and unfortunatley we are not the majority. We're stuck with him for a little while longer, get used to it.

P.S.S What the fuck happened to being a moderate? All I did was correct some prejudices and I get pounced on. Your so mad? Don't take it out on me, be productive and let the cops know about that little Nazi faction up there.

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

Horseshit. "No better"? The hell we're not. The only thing we rebuke is the fascist nature of those referenced. When was the last time "dude" you heard of a gay or lesbian spewing hatred toward his heterosexual brethren (let alone attacking them with a hatchet and a handgun in their chosen place of recreation)??

If it barks like a dog, smells like a dog, and behaves like a dog. My money's on the fact it is a dog.

HE WAS A FUCKING NAZI. NAZI'S ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF CHRISTIANS.

 

[EnglishGentleman]

I seem to have started a bit of a religious debate here!

I think we've established two major facts here....

1. One can be gay or straight, Christian, Jew or atheist, we're all united in thinking George W. Bush should not be running the US now.
2. We all think the Gay Bar attacks were monstrous and to a man (or woman) we condemn them.

Directly to LINittanyLion - I can only speak for myself, but I hope I actually speak for many of us. I would never prejudge anyone on any basis including their religion. The majority of all people of any faith, including Christians and Moslems, are decent, honest people like anyone else. Unfortunately, every institution has it's abusers who misuse the devotion of others to fulfill their own needs or greed.

Faith is an incredibly easy tool for politics and profit, hence the need of some political leaders like Mr Bush, Mr Saddam et al, to force dogma down peoples throats in the same breath as patriotism or legislation. One god told Saddam to massacre the Curds, another god told Dubya to "clean up Iraq". Which god should us non-believers give greater validity to? The actions of the leaders of these religions actually work to diminish their credibility outside of their existing circle.

I respect your right to your Catholic beliefs and values LINittanyLion and I hope you respect my values (probably not very different from your own) which don't require the validation or instruction of any ethereal third party.

You can be justly proud of saying you are a true believer, and I can stand equally as tall to say "I worked it out for myself".

 

[B_Stronzo]

Maine not liberal? Sure about that?

Yeah, I am. I live a good deal closer to those "Maniacs" than you do.

And where the fuck did I say I was a Bush supporter? I already told you I can't stand him and that I'm a Civil Libertarian. Don't go around and try to play the whole your president bullshit, because I didn't vote for him either. What I didn't appreciate was someone from another country referring to every republican as an evil religious zealot. That is media fabricated bullshit and you know it as well. I also didn't like your reference to the fact that just because your a Christian, you hate gays. Well guess what? I'm a Christian...a CATHOLIC. Do I hate gays and lesbians? No. Do I attack and demean gays and lesbians? No. Do I converse daily in a friendly matter with everyone here (minus trolls) regardless of sexual orientation? YES.

Whoa. Calm down. Did the valium wear off? You're colorful map notwithstanding, red and blue do not "acceptance make". And I don't give a shit who you support or not. You're on the attack. Back off.

All I was doing was explaining why people voted for him. I don't need you to come in here on your high horse and demean me for explaining others actions. Don't take your frustration out on me. I didn't do anything. Common respect would be nice as well.

You're the one who appears to be riding the "high horse". You began this tete-à-tete. My frustations are not taken out on anyone. My sense of outrage is why I posted this thread. Yes, I concur about 'common respect'. Had you shown some I'd have returned the serve.

P.S. You can try to play the whole not my president spiel, but we live in a democracy where majority rules, and unfortunatley we are not the majority. We're stuck with him for a little while longer, get used to it.

Your "high horse" is showing... don't look now. I'm "stuck with" no one. And as long as I'm able to voice my disgust at that meglomaniac in the Oval Office and his pseudo-ideals I'll do so.

P.S.S What the fuck happened to being a moderate?

I don't know you tell me since you profess to be one.

All I did was correct some prejudices and I get pounced on.

Wow. You sure can dish it out but you don't like anyone countermanding you're so-called 'corrections'. Indeed, I saw none.

Your so mad?

You bet your moderate ass I'm mad. I'll wage rthat seeing a neo-Nazi attempting to slaughter people at your local watering hole would make you a tad pissy too. Just a hunch mind you.

Don't take it out on me, be productive and let the cops know about that little Nazi faction up there.

Nothing's taken out on you until you put your uninformed nose into this. My 'little Nazi' faction 'up here' is no lesser or greater than yours "down there".

Now leave me to my beliefs and start you're own flag-waving "Moderate Thread" old boy. Your part of the problem, not the solution.

"P.S." you don't seem awfully "moderate".

 

[GottaBigOne]

Can someone explain to me why the classification of "hate crime" is needed? Should the motive of a crime really have that much of an effect on whether or not it should be punished harshly? Is it just to not punish some victims attacker as harsh as you could because the attacker's motivation wasn't racial,sexual, etc??
Violence is violence, murder is murder. "Hate crime" legislation is legislation against thought, against beliefs. It effectively says: "If you murder you get 25 years, if you murder while being a bigot you get 75 years. The extra fifty years is for being a bigot, not for an actual crime.

 

[B_Stronzo]

To EnglishGentleman:

As is so often the case with your countrymen, you write with consideration and eloquence. Would that my countrymen could speak with such civility when addressing one another.

My intent in starting this thread was only to inform. In doing so I'm being dissected and drawn and quartered by someone who wants to minimize the impact of a gay hate crime.

I'll have none of it ... or of him.

Thanks for your perspective from the "other side of the pond". Your latest post is the stuff of diplomacy and kindness. We could all stand to take a page from your book.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Can someone explain to me why the classification of "hate crime" is needed?

To eradicate the phenomenon ideally I would say.

The extra fifty years is for being a bigot, not for an actual crime.

For me, being a "bigot" is an actual crime when one randomly subjugates those who he considers lesser by taking a hatchet, a machete, and a handgun to them.