Gay conversion therapy heads to court

Is sexual orientation determined at birth?

  • I believe that a person's sexual orientation is NOT a choice

    Votes: 29 78.4%
  • I believe that a person's sexual orientation is a choice

    Votes: 2 5.4%
  • I believe it can be either

    Votes: 4 10.8%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 2 5.4%

  • Total voters
    37
  • Poll closed .

Fuzzy_

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California's gay conversion therapy ban gets a federal court hearing - San Jose Mercury News

SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal appeals court on Wednesday tussled with the legality of California's unprecedented ban on gay conversion therapy for minors, suggesting it could be upheld despite concerns for the free speech rights of counselors who support the practice.

During nearly two hours of arguments, a three-judge 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel grilled lawyers on both sides of the issue, wondering whether the First Amendment applies to psychotherapy aimed at converting gay teens to being straight. California in January became the first state in the nation to outlaw the therapy, concluding it serves no purpose and is harmful to minors.

Ninth Circuit Chief Judge Alex Kozinski, while clearly concerned about trampling on free speech rights, at one point told a lawyer for parents challenging the law that it seems the Legislature has the leeway to regulate licensed mental health professionals through such a ban.

"It's really a fine line," he said. "Why can't the Legislature say, 'Look, if you want to be a licensed professional, this is the type of therapy you can't (do)?' "

In two separate cases, a group of therapists and families sued to block the law, arguing it interferes with religious practices and violates therapists' free speech rights by barring gay conversion discussions between young patients and their counselors. Two Sacramento federal judges have split on the question, one upholding the law and the other finding it
violates the First Amendment.

The case is being closely watched as other states, New Jersey and Massachusetts among them, consider similar laws.

The key question is whether counseling minors to change their sexual preference is medical treatment that can be regulated by the state, or speech that deserves broad First Amendment protections. Ninth Circuit Judge Morgan Christen, an appointee of President Barack Obama, called the issue "pivotal."
Mike Huckabee is not happy with the ban:
"Let’s say a young person comes in and says, ‘You know, I’ve always believed I’m homosexual, believed that since I was 7 years old, but now that I’m 17, I’ve decided that I’m not, I’m heterosexual,’ and goes to a pro-homosexual counselor,” Huckabee told Staver. “Would that person be at risk?”
 

Redwyvre

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Part of me wonders why would a psychotherapist be treating homosexuality as a disorder? It isn't. Then again, I can see a clergy type of person providing this sort of therapy for somebody who truly believes it is a disorder. Still it seems counter-productive and probably creates more suffering. Of course, some people love to suffer. I can see why it is a toss up. Personally, I have several friends who went through a 12 step sort of program to become straight, as it turned out none of them became straight, but it was a great way to meet other homosexuals and now we're all friends.
 
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It depends on the individual. The weak-willed will not get a choice. Those who chose their own destiny see everything as a choice.

um, no.

Your sexuality is almost assuredly determined by genetics, just as the color of your eyes is. If sexuality were a choice, there would be a lot less or no gay people in the world.
 
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It depends on the individual. The weak-willed will not get a choice. Those who chose their own destiny see everything as a choice.
I disagree with this - and if you're 100% straight how would you know? Would you be able to convert yourself to homosexuality, through sheer force of will and choice?!

um, no.

Your sexuality is almost assuredly determined by genetics, just as the color of your eyes is. If sexuality were a choice, there would be a lot less or no gay people in the world.
I agree. I tend to think it's a mixture of nature and nurture, but I'm not sure anyone's proved it for certain. However, I've never seen/heard of any really successful conversion therapy. Denying all your natural urges and replacing them with something that comes extremely awkwardly (or not at all) is a recipe for disaster - ending in anxiety, depression and crisis of confidence. It's kinda like (in a much bigger way) people forced to write with their right hands back in the day, when they were left handed. Yes, they could be forced to, but often it had repercussions in other areas (eg: stammer, anxiety, etc).

People don't really have that much of a choice imo, otherwise they'd choose the easiest course, not the most difficult. Unless you're bi, then I guess there's a certain amount.
 

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Part of me wonders why would a psychotherapist be treating homosexuality as a disorder? It isn't. Then again, I can see a clergy type of person providing this sort of therapy for somebody who truly believes it is a disorder. Still it seems counter-productive and probably creates more suffering. Of course, some people love to suffer. I can see why it is a toss up. Personally, I have several friends who went through a 12 step sort of program to become straight, as it turned out none of them became straight, but it was a great way to meet other homosexuals and now we're all friends.

A few weeks ago, Anderson Cooper interviewed the son of a Republican Senator or Congressman that went through "Gay Theropy" and it sounded like he came out of it with a stronger sense of himself as a gay man and helped him in having relationships with men of all sexualities?!
 

Redwyvre

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I disagree with this - and if you're 100% straight how would you know? Would you be able to convert yourself to homosexuality, through sheer force of will and choice?!


I agree. I tend to think it's a mixture of nature and nurture, but I'm not sure anyone's proved it for certain. However, I've never seen/heard of any really successful conversion therapy. Denying all your natural urges and replacing them with something that comes extremely awkwardly (or not at all) is a recipe for disaster - ending in anxiety, depression and crisis of confidence. It's kinda like (in a much bigger way) people forced to write with their right hands back in the day, when they were left handed. Yes, they could be forced to, but often it had repercussions in other areas (eg: stammer, anxiety, etc).

People don't really have that much of a choice imo, otherwise they'd choose the easiest course, not the most difficult. Unless you're bi, then I guess there's a certain amount.

Wow! How long ago was this common. I can always remember every classroom having a couple of desks and scissors for the left handers and I'm no spring chicken!

As a child I was told I spoke with a lisp. So during the first grade I spent hours and hours saying, Sally sells seashells by the seashore for a speech therapist. Was this a subtle attempt to change my sexual orientation? Did I choose to speak with a lisp? Perhaps. But honestly at this point it doesn't matter. Have to admit I am wondering what exactly is the sort of therapy they want to ban in California?

When a person thinks about it. Sure gay folks are different than the majority, but it really doesn't require that much to accommodate us.
 
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gymfresh

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It depends on the individual. The weak-willed will not get a choice. Those who chose their own destiny see everything as a choice.

???

I consider myself a pretty strong-willed person. But I don't see any way I could will myself to be heterosexual, any more than I could change my ethic origin. Ultimately it shouldn't matter; we're one human family and normal human sexuality is a spectrum. Our acts can move up or down that spectrum, but I doubt anyone gets to "pick" their innate sexual orientation.
 

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Wow! How long ago was this common. I can always remember every classroom having a couple of desks and scissors for the left handers and I'm no spring chicken! ...
It was pretty fully abandoned by the early 1970s, in the United States. Although I was allowed to write left-handed, I was taught that it would "just be easier" if I learned to use right-handed scissors--my teacher telling me that she didn't know how to use them to in turn teach me.
 

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I consider myself a pretty strong-willed person. But I don't see any way I could will myself to be heterosexual, any more than I could change my ethic origin.
But if you were weak willed, perhaps someone could convince you that you ought to be able to change and it was just a matter of going about it the right way. Then put you in a program to make it happen. Since I dont dont believe its possible to change either, I would think anyone operating such a program was a fraud and therefore ought to be banned under laws regulating medical practice.
 

wappingite

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I don't believe that you can change your sexuality or your sexual orientation at will, but one can certainly endure and perform sexually even if not inclined to it. People have been having sex with people that turn them off for ages for a variety of reasons from societal pressure to being attracted to their wealth and security instead of looks.

If an adult want to go through a programme to force themselves to endure people they're not physcially attracted to great. It's no different from a married couple going to therapy to resolve to keep the "romance" alive long after their no longer physically attracted to one another. Adults should have free will, even if it's quackery.

But I am strongly opposed to this with non-adults because the control is being taken away from the individual at one of the most emotionally vulnerable times of their lives. It's not a mental illness, so there is nothing to treat. Families can be so insidious sometimes.
 

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This type of therapy really and honestly if people are contacted years later appears to have a really poor track record. The appearance is that this type of therapy seems to be always connected to some religious or ultra conservative extremist organization in some manner.

The consensus of opinion held by all but the most extreme of minds appears to be that after conversion therapy the only thing one gets is a fearful miserable gay person with a higher chance of committing suicide than if they had been left alone.

Those supporting it appear to be the most extreme of conservatives and some of the justifications they give for allowing it to continue are absolutely absurd. I eventually see this one becoming Federal Law and grounds to revoke a license to practice on many levels.

If it is not outlawed by simple common sense the fight will become far more aggressive than it already is. Right now this kind of thing good or bad gets little publicity, create a mess and the publicity skyrockets and it can be handled by the portion of the FDA regulating medical practices and treatments. People practicing all forms of medicine are under multiple levels of regulatory agencies with the FEDS being at the top of the list and then going down to state level, then County level and in some cases City levels. The FEDS control the whole show, any law passed by the FEDS for this would over-ride laws made at lower levels. Call too much attention and something small becomes something very large. Believers in this need to simply allow California to ban it because if the extremists make too much of a scene the FEDS will ban it nationwide.
 

Redwyvre

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This type of therapy really and honestly if people are contacted years later appears to have a really poor track record. The appearance is that this type of therapy seems to be always connected to some religious or ultra conservative extremist organization in some manner.

The consensus of opinion held by all but the most extreme of minds appears to be that after conversion therapy the only thing one gets is a fearful miserable gay person with a higher chance of committing suicide than if they had been left alone.

Those supporting it appear to be the most extreme of conservatives and some of the justifications they give for allowing it to continue are absolutely absurd. I eventually see this one becoming Federal Law and grounds to revoke a license to practice on many levels.

If it is not outlawed by simple common sense the fight will become far more aggressive than it already is. Right now this kind of thing good or bad gets little publicity, create a mess and the publicity skyrockets and it can be handled by the portion of the FDA regulating medical practices and treatments. People practicing all forms of medicine are under multiple levels of regulatory agencies with the FEDS being at the top of the list and then going down to state level, then County level and in some cases City levels. The FEDS control the whole show, any law passed by the FEDS for this would over-ride laws made at lower levels. Call too much attention and something small becomes something very large. Believers in this need to simply allow California to ban it because if the extremists make too much of a scene the FEDS will ban it nationwide.

I agree. In Minnesota last year a school district was sued for not preventing the bullying of gay students and The "God Hates Fags" contingent just went ballistic. They hated the publicity, they hated having to own up for what they were doing, they claimed their rights were being threatened, and society was going to hell blah, blah, blah. I really hope this becomes a Federal issue soon.
 

Fuzzy_

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But if you were weak willed, perhaps someone could convince you that you ought to be able to change and it was just a matter of going about it the right way. Then put you in a program to make it happen. Since I dont dont believe its possible to change either, I would think anyone operating such a program was a fraud and therefore ought to be banned under laws regulating medical practice.

From Wikipedia:

Mainstream health organizations critical of conversion therapy include the American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Counseling Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the American Academy of Physician Assistants.

The American Psychological Association undertook a study of the peer-reviewed literature in the area of sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and found a myriad of issues with the procedures used in conducting the research. The taskforce did find that that some participants experienced a lessening of same sex attraction and arousal, but that these instances were "rare" and "uncommon." The taskforce concluded that, "given the limited amount of methodically sound research, claims that recent SOCE is effective are not supported. Two issues with SOCE claims are that conversion therapists falsely assume that homosexuality is a mental disorder and that their research focuses almost exclusively on gay men and rarely includes lesbians.

[ . . . ]

The American Psychological Association's code of conduct states: "Psychologists respect the dignity and worth of all people, and the rights of individuals to privacy, confidentiality, and self-determination," but also: "Psychologists are aware that special safeguards may be necessary to protect the rights and welfare of persons or communities whose vulnerabilities impair autonomous decision making." The American Counseling Association says that "it is of primary importance to respect a client's autonomy to request a referral for a service not offered by a counselor." No one should be forced to attempt to change their sexual orientation against their will, including children being forced by their parents.
It seems as if psychologists can refuse to offer conversion therapy to a patient, but they must refer that patient to somebody who can.

Fuzzy finds it interesting that there is such a focus on gay males. Why is there such a need to "repair" males and not females? Is masculinity more important than femininity? Fuzzy can't help but think of how Thatcher was masculinized in order to attain power in the party... a deeper voice, shoulder pads, short hair. If masculinity is power, then it makes sense that there would be such an obsession about its absence.