Gay guys, HIV and barebacking ..questions..

[Daisy]

Guys I really am baffled beyond belief. I stumbled upon a blog written by a guy who loves to have sex with multiple partners, as in like 3 guys a day, totally random and with no condom.
My first thought was, OK that's incredibly risky. As I read on though he mentioned being turned on by the idea of taking a "toxic load". Let me repeat that he and many many commentors were turned ON by the thought of fucking a guy who admittedly is HIV positive. This is incomprehensible to me.
Do you guys know any guys like this?? All of the HIV discussions I've read on LPSG have been cautionary, and never even slightly encouraging.
I understand why guys would want to have a lot of sex (testosterone) but I can't understand why they want to have sex with men who they know could very well kill them. Intentionally unprotected sex.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[The Dragon]

Sounds like he's a "bug chaser" there is also the thrill of playing a form of sexual Russian Roulette.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugchasing

Uncle B might be able to shed more light on the proclivity.

 

[dfrois81]

well, I think its a term call ''suicidal''.... somehow ppl intend to love risks to get excitement, for example, stealing item at hypermarket, peeping tom, car speeding and so on...

 

[Daisy]

Honestly, I'm more confused than ever. If men want to commit suicide that's their business but what bothers me is those that they risk infecting who are not "bug chasers", maybe one of those guys is a husband on "the down low" who brings it home to his wife. That is just insane.

 

[Countryguy63]

We're in the same place, Seaside. I can't even comprehend someone wanting to become infected?

I can only guess that they are not happy with their life and want to have fun while basically committing suicide. But even then, do they really want to go through all of the difficulties (sickness and pain) that accompanies AIDS??

Yes, I know that being HIV Positive does not necessarily mean AIDS, but it's a bigger probability.

 

[FuzzyKen]

I have tried to wrote a response to Seaside's great comment several times, but as one who as donated countless hours to HIV patients before the advent of the protease and reverse transcriptease drugs, and as a man who has buried over 50 friends, business associates, relatives and such from this virus I have to admit that even seeing this kind of thing not only hurts, it makes me angry.

I have gone and checked men and taken them to the hospital with PCP pneumonia, I have watched them suffer as showers of Kaposii's lesions covered their bodies, I have watched good vital and handsome men horribly disfigured as wart virus after wart virus ran out of control. I have seen one of my best friends who was sero-positive die of PML. Until you have seen a PML death you have not seen anything. I was there holding his hand when he finally slipped away at Cedars in Los Angeles. I have seen common herpes zoster (shingles) take the eyesight of another friend. I worst of all watched another friend insured under an HMO be diagnosed with lymphoma and I watched that man be placed in a hospice in Southern California where he was allowed to drown in his own body fluids because the HMO refused to do anything to make him comfortable. I have seen another friend killed by that same HMO because they on December 20th gave him two drugs that completely and utterly destroyed his liver. He died on Christmas Eve.

What is fortunate is that the numbers involved in this kind of activity are relatively small. The problem with them is that these are the same group of individuals who go out to the bars and after enough alcohol or other substances never bother to tell the other guy that they are even sero-positive. When some poor misguided and misinformed innocent kid just entering the gay world comes along they have no hesitation to follow this same thought process or lack of it and to infect that individual as well. This person then goes out and infects others in total innocence until they themselves find out about their own plight and they don't know how it happened.

There are sadly numbers of individuals today both male and female that just don't care. It is far more than just barebacking. It is a whole mindset that seems to "tune out" the fact that this kind of sex act has the potential to lead to death. That same sex act has the potential to cost private insurance carriers or the taxpayers millions of dollars over the lifetime of the patient for treatment when the infection itself could have been prevented.

Those who are suicidal and seek infection most commonly are horrendously misinformed as to the nature of the infection they are dealing with. Many of these young ones just simply don't ever want to have a life or a job or anything else. They seem to think that once they are infected they can get the drugs easily and they will be healthy. They seem to think that they will not have to work, they seem to think that they can get all the steroids that they want, and spend all day at the gym so that they too can literally boff their brains out at every opportunity. The sad part of this is that this is pure and complete fantasy with no reality involved.

None of those around doing this were around in the beginning when there were no treatments. I have seen it all unfortunately. It was one of the hardest times in my life especially when the funerals peaked and I was attending so many.

The one thing that has come of this is legislation, investigation, and surprisingly and happily prosecution. These cases are now seeing the Courts and convictions are now taking place. This is not well publicized, but it is happening.

This is one of the saddest comments on a very small percentage of men and women with mental problems.

 

[HappyBoi]

The post above me from FuzzyKen was heavy and hard to read. I can't even begin to understand what you've gone through.


I don't know much about these 'bug chasers' but I've heard of them. In my silly mind I sort of thought it was some fantasy of "getting pregnant" since they call it 'catching the bug', the closest they could come. I'm certainly way off in my thinking but that was one of the first thoughts that came to life when I read about it.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

It's interesting that barebacking and bugchasing have become a trope surrounding Gay sex culture, when the almost default position among many if not most straight people is condomless sex.

Yes there are Gay barebackers and bugchasers. The quantity of bugchasers is probably vanishingly small. There are billions of straight people who never even think to use condoms whose sexual behaviour is virtually unexamined and for which there is no publicly debated nomenclature.

 

[HappyBoi]

I think the diffrence is that these bug chasers are searching for the virus, wanting to be infected, while the straight people you're talking about are 'only' not thinking about it. I'd say there's a big diffrence between the two. I haven't heard about 'bug chasing' in the straight community, maybe it excists there too.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

I think the diffrence is that these bug chasers are searching for the virus, wanting to be infected, while the straight people you're talking about are 'only' not thinking about it. I'd say there's a big diffrence between the two. I haven't heard about 'bug chasing' in the straight community, maybe it excists there too.

I acknowledge that people see a difference there. However, three young guys I know went to Thailand for a holiday recently all came back with some kind of clap or another, asked why they didn't use condoms with the prostitutes they had been sleeping with they all basically said "I hate condoms, feels shit, love fucking bare, and we could always get antibiotics if we caught anything."

They accepted the possibility of contraction of an STD as a natural consequence of screwing prostitutes in a developing world country without prophylaxis, and expected to need treatment for their infections upon their return. One of them has caught Hepatitis which has not responded to treatment thus far.

I'll grant you none of them deliberately sought out an STD infection, but they all expected to get one and none of them seemed to care that much about catching one so long as they were getting their jollies. None of them even seemed to consider HIV as an issue, even though HIV infection rates among straight people worldwide far outstrip homosexual infection rates.


I don't see any especial difference between this kind of activity and bug-chasing. I've raised bug-chasing myself here before, and quite rightly had it pointed out to me that there is undue focus on an activity which is extremely marginal and the preserve of a tiny number of Gay men while the same or very similar behaviours are widespread among heterosexuals and remain totally unexamined.

 

[erratic]

Once again I find myself siding with hilaire. No one talks about straight people "barebacking." I know straight people, male and female, who happily admit that they refuse to use condoms.

Yeah, bug chasing is a fucked-up idea. Absolutely. But I refuse to believe that bug chasers account for anything more than a lunatic fringe of society that gets way more press than it deserves because it makes gay people look bad.

 

[luka82]

It's interesting that barebacking and bugchasing have become a trope surrounding Gay sex culture, when the almost default position among many if not most straight people is condomless sex.

Yes there are Gay barebackers and bugchasers. The quantity of bugchasers is probably vanishingly small. There are billions of straight people who never even think to use condoms whose sexual behaviour is virtually unexamined and for which there is no publicly debated nomenclature.

Hili, people in Serbia and I dare to say in all of ex-Yugoslavia are not prone to use condoms much.
That`s why when I look for a date I always emphesise that I`m only into safe sex.
I still find it hard that there are people who want to get infected intentionally, but visiting many internet forums I have seen it happen.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Hili, people in Serbia and I dare to say in all of ex-Yugoslavia are not prone to use condoms much.
That`s why when I look for a date I always emphesise that I`m only into safe sex.
I still find it hard that there are people who want to get infected intentionally, but visiting many internet forums I have seen it happen.

I don't disagree with you :wink:

 

[luka82]

*emphasise!
Damn you, Luka!

 

[Opalite]

Though not to the same extent, I can somewhat relate to Ken. I've lost a handfull of friends to the virus - aswell as an uncle that also died from progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy (PML). I've seen what the virus can do, and it breaks my heart to think anyone can just disregard that. I have heard of this phenomena before (as there was a big scandal here a few years back, when bugparties got a lot more popular), but it angers me everytime I come across.. surely, these people do not know the virus.


Hilaire, I think the reason why (not to say I agree with) might have something to do with the general idea that it is much harder for a female to infect her partner, as it is for a male to infect his partner. That been said, most commonly HIV is spread through vaginal sex by hetrosexuals.

 

[Daisy]

I really hope this doesn't turn into a homosexual rights/respect/perception issue. It's really not. This is not about homosexuals as a community AT ALL. As mentioned I'm well aware that it is a fringe community, and I see absolutely no reason why minimizing bug chasing and pointing out how straight people are all running around with their bare cocks out ready to stick it into anything, helps those misguided people who attend conversion parties.
I know plenty of straight guys who would never have sex with a hooker, let alone unprotected sex. I don't know anyone who would engage in that risky of behavior, so Hilare I don't know who you've been talking to but my experience is obviously different than yours.
I also am not going to get into a sparring match with you regarding gay vs straight.
Fuzzyken wrote an excellent post which I really hope that someone will read, and maybe convince someone who was considering it that it isn't as simple and "getting a bug" and then living out wild fantasies.
I saw several videos on YouTube about a documentary called "The Gift" and several guys were talking about guilty they feel for being HIV negative, and that if you advocate safe sex it's an affront to those who are positive. Watch the documentary. This is not my issue, nor my cross to bear. I only brought it up because I had never heard of it before and it still defies belief that anyone would WILLINGLY infect themselves with HIV. Not the risky bareback sex..but go to a party with the intent of contracting HIV.

 

[DevonTexas]

I just call them sociopaths

 

[MH07]

Guys I really am baffled beyond belief. I stumbled upon a blog written by a guy who loves to have sex with multiple partners, as in like 3 guys a day, totally random and with no condom.
My first thought was, OK that's incredibly risky. As I read on though he mentioned being turned on by the idea of taking a "toxic load". Let me repeat that he and many many commentors were turned ON by the thought of fucking a guy who admittedly is HIV positive. This is incomprehensible to me.
Do you guys know any guys like this?? All of the HIV discussions I've read on LPSG have been cautionary, and never even slightly encouraging.
I understand why guys would want to have a lot of sex (testosterone) but I can't understand why they want to have sex with men who they know could very well kill them. Intentionally unprotected sex.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

It is literally the same thing as ACTUALLY playing a REAL game of Russian Roulette: 6 people sit in a circle. A gun with 6 chambers. One chamber contains a live bullet. Each person holds the gun to his/her head and pulls the trigger. Will it be you? Will it be me? It's going to be one of us.

I will also say: I'm 54. Like FuzzyKen, I sat with friends who were dying. A couple of quick stories (out of many): very early in the epidemic, say, 1st part of '82, I think, a (gay) friend of mine's little brother came out at 21, very excited to be "out and free"! Cute kid, went to the bar, met 1 guy and took him home. He swore up and down he'd only had sex with the one guy (they dated a couple of weeks). The guy eventually died of AIDS, but the little brother got sick and died in a matter of weeks.

Second story, not much to tell, I had a friend who was a great big ol bear. I remember visiting him, with him lying in bed, covered with leisions, 6'4", couldn't have weighed over 135 lbs, skin and bones, no hair....he died a week or so later.

I have buried a lot of friends (I never counted, was afraid to do so). Had the experience of walking into bars and saying, "Where's Fred/Tom/George/Bill?" and hearing (in hushed tones), "Oh, didn't you hear? He died last week."

These kids who are in their teens and twenties grew up in an era of possible treatments, of drugs that could prolong life after infection; in an era when a diagnosis of "HIV" did not automatically equate to a diagnosis of "Death is coming for you within a matter of months, but only after a period of horrible suffering and pain."

They also are living in a time of much greater acceptance of the gay world, where legal systems are not nearly as harsh, etc. For example, a couple friend of mine (both of whose righteous religionista families disowned them and would not speak to them) had the misfortune of one of the partners becoming full-blown AIDS (both were +). They had all their money, investments, house, etc, jointly. When the sick one died, his hateful religionista mother (in a Christian sort of way) got a court (in a gay-unfriendly, Christian-friendly) state to give her sole possession of all of his property--and since it was a situation with joint accounts, joint ownership, etc---she took it all. She took great pleasure, in fact, in watching the partner evicted from a house that was HALF HIS.

In any event, these kids have never faced horrors like this, so they feel like they can play stupid games.

Good luck!

 

[B_Marius567]

I am happy i never had sex with man after reading this. big turn off

 

[B_Nicodemous]

OK, with the possibillity of pissing EVERYONE off:

Hilaire, it wasn't Seasides intent on pointing fingers at gays. I am sure their are straights out there who bug chase as well. I do not know if the numbers are proportianate across the two fringe groups. Form what I understand, alot of the "allure" of bug chasing stems from the despair of "well it's only a matter of time" mentallity. This may be higher in gays and bis as there aleady a disproportinate rate of depression from being gay and not being accepted. SOme may feel, "why limit my options." It's sad.

Now this is VASTLY different form people, gay and straight, being fuckin irresponsible. Your straight friends were of the "We can get a fix for it" mentality. I am sure they even thought that about HIV (have you seen the stupid posts by young straights and gays about the ease of taking a single pill to hold HIV at bay? Fuckin crazy shit!)

Other people are just dumbasses thinking with the little head. Most are people who just didn't see the horrors of the early AIDS epedemic, like we did. I was young but I remeber even at five, seeing the effects, when an HIV diagnosis was invariably an AIDS diagnosis as well, and a guaranteed death sentence.

But being dumb, and irresponsible is NOT the same as KNOWING the risks and actively seeking it, nor is it the same as knowing how fucked up life is with thre med routine and actively GIVING it disease to someone. That's just fucked beyond belief.

So, in the sipirit of keepng things civil:

Seaside, would you be terribly put out if they changed the thread title to drop the word "Gay" and expand your thread to include staright guys (and gals) as well?

Cuz the fact remains, that fringe or not, there are wack-a-dos out there. Hell we had a thread up were some dude, who wasn't a bug chaser, encountered a guy all that was all to willing to risk said members health and lif, the "Recently botomed for someone HIV positive" thread.

Yes it sucks that the gay community gts asociated with this. But maybe his thread can help educate people that it is a possibility for straights and gays. And that their actions of needlesly risky behavior places them, if not in the same camp as these nutters, then withen walking distance.