Gay guys, HIV and barebacking ..questions..

Daisy

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I must be naive because before The Dragon said "bug chasers" I had NO CLUE this was a trend. I thought it was insane that anyone would want to knowingly get HIV. Had I known it was a fringe group I wouldnt have said anything about it. I am totally not up for drama. You can delete the whole thing if you like. I will not engage in a controversy about this. Like I said it's not my cross to bear and I'm not out to piss anybody off.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I really hope this doesn't turn into a homosexual rights/respect/perception issue. It's really not. This is not about homosexuals as a community AT ALL. As mentioned I'm well aware that it is a fringe community, and I see absolutely no reason why minimizing bug chasing and pointing out how straight people are all running around with their bare cocks out ready to stick it into anything, helps those misguided people who attend conversion parties.
I know plenty of straight guys who would never have sex with a hooker, let alone unprotected sex. I don't know anyone who would engage in that risky of behavior, so Hilare I don't know who you've been talking to but my experience is obviously different than yours.
I also am not going to get into a sparring match with you regarding gay vs straight.
Fuzzyken wrote an excellent post which I really hope that someone will read, and maybe convince someone who was considering it that it isn't as simple and "getting a bug" and then living out wild fantasies.
I saw several videos on YouTube about a documentary called "The Gift" and several guys were talking about guilty they feel for being HIV negative, and that if you advocate safe sex it's an affront to those who are positive. Watch the documentary. This is not my issue, nor my cross to bear. I only brought it up because I had never heard of it before and it still defies belief that anyone would WILLINGLY infect themselves with HIV. Not the risky bareback sex..but go to a party with the intent of contracting HIV.

I must be naive because before The Dragon said "bug chasers" I had NO CLUE this was a trend. I thought it was insane that anyone would want to knowingly get HIV. Had I known it was a fringe group I wouldnt have said anything about it. I am totally not up for drama. You can delete the whole thing if you like. I will not engage in a controversy about this. Like I said it's not my cross to bear and I'm not out to piss anybody off.




Hey, look you asked for people's opinions, I offered mine, I'm sorry you felt like I was having a go at you, I don't recall ever actually directing my comments at you or making any comments in my posts about you.


You may not see some of the underlying issues here, I was merely pointing them out is all.


There's no drama, I'm just offering another perspective on this is. No drama :wink:
 
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cal_uncut

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I am happy i never had sex with man after reading this. big turn off
Seriously? Yes, this behavior is a huge turn off, but your comment generalizes this specific behavior to a much larger population of men.


I must be naive because before The Dragon said "bug chasers" I had NO CLUE this was a trend.
This represents a very small population of people. I think that calling it a trend makes it sound a little too mainstream.


I have more of an issue with people that know they have positive and willingly infect others under the pretense that they are negative. That is morally irrepressible. At least the guys that are seeking it are aware of the situation. But I do not believe they are fully aware, or rationally aware, of the full consequences. HIV is no longer the death sentence that it once was, but the treatments are not pleasant and are very expensive.

The financial impact this can have on other people, indirectly, I find to be personally offensive as well. If the person is covered under medical insurance, this doesn't do anything to help keep premiums low. If they are uninsured, it certainly should not be the responsibility of everyone else (be it medicare/medicaid, or in other countries, socialized medicine) to treat people that are actively seeking this disease.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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OK, with the possibillity of pissing EVERYONE off:

Hilaire, it wasn't Seasides intent on pointing fingers at gays. I am sure their are straights out there who bug chase as well. I do not know if the numbers are proportianate across the two fringe groups. Form what I understand, alot of the "allure" of bug chasing stems from the despair of "well it's only a matter of time" mentallity. This may be higher in gays and bis as there aleady a disproportinate rate of depression from being gay and not being accepted. SOme may feel, "why limit my options." It's sad.

Now this is VASTLY different form people, gay and straight, being fuckin irresponsible. Your straight friends were of the "We can get a fix for it" mentality. I am sure they even thought that about HIV (have you seen the stupid posts by young straights and gays about the ease of taking a single pill to hold HIV at bay? Fuckin crazy shit!)

Other people are just dumbasses thinking with the little head. Most are people who just didn't see the horrors of the early AIDS epedemic, like we did. I was young but I remeber even at five, seeing the effects, when an HIV diagnosis was invariably an AIDS diagnosis as well, and a guaranteed death sentence.

But being dumb, and irresponsible is NOT the same as KNOWING the risks and actively seeking it, nor is it the same as knowing how fucked up life is with thre med routine and actively GIVING it disease to someone. That's just fucked beyond belief.

So, in the sipirit of keepng things civil:

Seaside, would you be terribly put out if they changed the thread title to drop the word "Gay" and expand your thread to include staright guys (and gals) as well?

Cuz the fact remains, that fringe or not, there are wack-a-dos out there. Hell we had a thread up were some dude, who wasn't a bug chaser, encountered a guy all that was all to willing to risk said members health and lif, the "Recently botomed for someone HIV positive" thread.

Yes it sucks that the gay community gts asociated with this. But maybe his thread can help educate people that it is a possibility for straights and gays. And that their actions of needlesly risky behavior places them, if not in the same camp as these nutters, then withen walking distance.


I didn't say Seaside was pointing fingers at anyone Nico.




Over time my views on this have changed. I no longer feel like I have the moral superiority or that my choices in life have always been infallibly correct, and I don't feel like I can dismiss other people for the choices they make as "nutters" or "fucked beyond belief" when those choices harm no one else but themselves.


I've done enumerable things which others might think that sort of thing about, though I've never endangered or harmed the health or life of anyone else mind you. I'm in no position though to judge the decisions of other people when those decisions have no direct effects on anyone else.

That's why I think that engaging in unprotected sex without knowing or caring about the health status of your partner is far more worrying and ultimately objectionable as a phenomenon than knowingly seeking to become infected with a disease in a situation in which both partners know each other's status.

Does that mean I think anyone should want to infect themselves with HIV? No, of course not, I don't think (all things being equal) that anyone should want to be infected with any disease. And I think anyone would want to attempt to dissuade someone they knew from such a desire.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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I really hope this doesn't turn into a homosexual rights/respect/perception issue. It's really not. This is not about homosexuals as a community AT ALL. As mentioned I'm well aware that it is a fringe community, and I see absolutely no reason why minimizing bug chasing and pointing out how straight people are all running around with their bare cocks out ready to stick it into anything, helps those misguided people who attend conversion parties.
I know plenty of straight guys who would never have sex with a hooker, let alone unprotected sex. I don't know anyone who would engage in that risky of behavior, so Hilare I don't know who you've been talking to but my experience is obviously different than yours.
I also am not going to get into a sparring match with you regarding gay vs straight.
Fuzzyken wrote an excellent post which I really hope that someone will read, and maybe convince someone who was considering it that it isn't as simple and "getting a bug" and then living out wild fantasies.
I saw several videos on YouTube about a documentary called "The Gift" and several guys were talking about guilty they feel for being HIV negative, and that if you advocate safe sex it's an affront to those who are positive. Watch the documentary. This is not my issue, nor my cross to bear. I only brought it up because I had never heard of it before and it still defies belief that anyone would WILLINGLY infect themselves with HIV. Not the risky bareback sex..but go to a party with the intent of contracting HIV.




Also I think I should point something out here Seaside.

Firstly, this isn't the first time I've seen you react like this when other members point something out or react in a way you hadn't expected to something you've contributed. The pattern being that you often seem to think that disagreement or someone merely pointing something out that you might not have considered is personal in some way.

Ultimately you don't get to dictate how people react to the things you post I'm afraid.


Secondly, your frequent response to this situation is to attempt a variant of what's called "Tone Policing" Tone argument - Geek Feminism Wiki whereby you affect to be personally affronted in some way by the unexpected reaction your post may have elicited and then try to dictate what and how other members should react to and discuss about your post/s.

Tone Policing is a form of Derailment. Derailment is an instance of an individual from a privileged majority attempting to deny the validity of the opinions or point of view of someone from a discriminated against minority.

On this occasion your derailment tactic seems to combine an element of Tone Policing and the oft used "You're Interrogating from the Wrong Perspective" tactic, described very ably (and humorously) by Derailment for Dummies -

This is a very special tactic but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be freely or liberally used. If anything, it means you should use it as often and as widely as you can.
You see, in this one you get to insult their intelligence and perceptiveness but in a very subtle and underhanded way! This one is very useful in discussions about literature and other media or academia.
The gist of it is this: there's nothing offensive in there, you just don't get it (because you are too stupid)!

For example – you might want to impress your belief that context is irrelevant (there's no racist parallels in a mythological planet where beautiful white elves keep horrible, animalistic orcs as slaves – it's completely detached from earth's history!), or that they're just reading it wrong (well sure, you could take that attitude if you approach it from that perspective, but that's not the perspective it was meant to be read with so your argument is just flawed!).

Once again (and truly a fundamental aspect of derailing) you demonstrate your lack of awareness of their issues but you also get to tell them that they're wrong because you (and all the other Privileged People®) simply know better. Try it out and just wait and see what you get back.

Burn, baby, burn!

Derailing for Dummies


Now naturally I don't say you do any of this calculatingly, or for that matter with any malice. You seem like a perfectly nice person in lots of ways so I have no reason to suspect you of anything unpleasant.


I know I risk the wrath of Nico for even mentioning this to you, however I would suggest that perhaps you might be better served if you chose to engage more with the views of other members rather than casually dismissing them because they contradict or challenge or otherwise unexpectedly confront your own.

I really hope this doesn't turn into a homosexual rights/respect/perception issue. It's really not.

Because the above statement is deeply offensive, I could have chosen to lose my temper at being told by a heterosexual woman whether or not there are aspects of this discussion which touch on Gay rights and discrimination. I didn't because I suspect you meant no harm, and I thought I'd just show you how others could interpret you post.
 
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B_Nicodemous

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Ok first of all...The wrath of Nico? LOL...

Pretty sure they make a cream for that now...

Secondly all of us (myself included) can be oversensitive if this is even a case of it. Mostly it's just a case of not being able to hear the tone of the speaker. One of the unfortunate aspects of pure text. I try to insert "lol's" and emoticons to clairify, and even then sometimes don't do as well as I would like to.

I suggested an alternative to all this back in my first post.\

I have a very civil, well thought out response to everyone, and had it typed oout on my cell, and then went to correct a typo (not that I make those) and deleted the whole thing. I am not going ot rush to re type it, as the deletion of it made me most cranky, and I have learned to not post cranky.

If you do not likle my uise of the term "nutter" or the phrase" fucked up beyond all belief" then I appologise for upseting or offending you, if not for the use of the term, which I still stand behind.

Have I made not so good choices in my sexual past. You betcha. Is that the same as knowingly going out with the intent to become infected. Not at all. We all fuck up. I's human it tis. But the mentally/emotionally unmablanced tactic of doing this is not a simple, "oops, my bad." I think it is indicative of larger issues, one of which is the desperation caused by feeling marginalised by society as a whole, but I could be off base.

So if we open the question (and maybe title of the thread as I suggested,if all parties aggreable) to include straights as well, then perhaps we can get back to the q of the thread which was :"Why would anyone willingly do this?"

More later as to how this effects not just the person (hint: what if said person is married and fooling around and infects unsuspecting and innocent partner)

Love to all, and no wrath involved...

Wrath of Nico indeed...:rolleyes:
 

B_Nicodemous

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Oh one more thought...Defensiveness or percived defensivness usually doesn't spring up. Seaside has had her share of people who dogpile her, personally insult her (far more than that line bothered you Hilaire, we are talking absolute insults) and borderline threaten her. We have all dealt with this in different ways. I have delt with it, for better or worse. Petite had her share, and in truth could be snappish at times towards the end of her run here if she even suspected someone was attacking her. I said in those times to people not getting the defensivness that she displayed, what I said here. I don't have the time to dig uop the threads and posts, but they are they if you wish to peruse.
 

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Guys I really am baffled beyond belief. I stumbled upon a blog written by a guy who loves to have sex with multiple partners, as in like 3 guys a day, totally random and with no condom.
My first thought was, OK that's incredibly risky. As I read on though he mentioned being turned on by the idea of taking a "toxic load". Let me repeat that he and many many commentors were turned ON by the thought of fucking a guy who admittedly is HIV positive. This is incomprehensible to me.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

It is my belief these guys are in denial about being positive. They might not have been tested, but they really know they are positive deep down. The rest of the fantasy is all part of the denial. I also think people write more about this then is actually going on. To a degree, it becomes an urban legend. Is there someone out doing this activity...yes...but this may not be the only dangerous thing they are doing in their life. Just my opinion.
 

Bbucko

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Uncle B might be able to shed more light on the proclivity.

It's interesting that barebacking and bugchasing have become a trope surrounding Gay sex culture, when the almost default position among many if not most straight people is condomless sex.

Yes there are Gay barebackers and bugchasers. The quantity of bugchasers is probably vanishingly small. There are billions of straight people who never even think to use condoms whose sexual behaviour is virtually unexamined and for which there is no publicly debated nomenclature.

I wrote this essay six years ago, and it still sums up my feelings on the subject. It's not very long, but it is rather snarky and over-written (like so much of what we were posting at that time), so either slog through it or perhaps just this one paragraph:

This entire tale reminds me overmuch of the superinfected Tina twink, Patient X who bravely bottomed in a drug-induced gangbang in the sewers of New York until she'd managed to go from healthy to "full-blown" AIDS in a matter of months. The supervirus, like Bigfoot and Nessie, is more the creation of heated minds than scientific fact. Were I of the mind and had I sufficient volition, I could come up with a shocking expose on straight scatpigs or the ritual Satanic rape of virgin[s ...]. No one from the mainstream media would attempt to condone such behavior, and it would be dismissed as a sad aberration, however titillating.

It is impossible to discuss this exceedingly rare phenomenon without interjecting an almost reflexively-driven cluck of disapproval. I have had virtually no interaction with Seaside, so I'll not speculate on why she chose to post the OP, though I really don't think that she had any malicious intent.

FuzzyKen and I have extremely similar histories with one major difference: I was infected with HIV in 1984. I respect him (and his experiences) too much to engage him on this topic. I completely sympathize with him and his loss but we hold almost polar opposite views about it and the increasingly-common criminalizing of HIV in the US.

When I first started posting here I was very open about both being HIV+ and the fact that I abstain from condom use. The caveat here, and it's enormous, is that I'm a strict serosorter: I only have sex with bottoms who are already infected. I have suffered my fair share of trolls (including one who has followed me around from site to site) as a result, so I rarely post about it at all any more. But this thread is too important to ignore based on what's been posted above.

I have been extremely active, both sexually and socially at the bar I work in, for the past odd six years and have never met a chaser, whether online or IRL. This is important because I'm militantly out as HIV+ everywhere. If this issue were important in any appreciable sense, I'd have met one by now. I'm not denying that it never happens, but I can state with complete assurance that I've yet to be exposed to it, especially with the lurid angle of conversion parties.

What is infinitely more common (and I see frequently) are newly-infected guys who knew their risks and considered them acceptable. I do not agree with this line of thinking, nor am I condoning it, however I do recognize that it exists. Anything else would be to deny reality.

In my opinion, the biggest factor to this way of thinking belongs to those whom I label AIDS-minimizers: just take your meds and everything will be all right. The largest group of AIDS-minimizers are those with a professional stake in perpetuating it, namely Big Pharma and the medical profession. Sadly the second-largest group is the newly-infected themselves, but I don't engage them on this issue because life will have its leveling effect eventually.

My biggest issue with the minimizers, aside from the fact that they perpetuate a lie, is that they want it both ways: it cannot be a catastrophe to become infected if treatments are simple, stream-lined and risk-free. This dangerous distortion breeds a very casual attitude about what remains a terminal condition. Throw in some mental-health issues like depression and esteem issues and stir in a large dose of meth smoke, and it's natural that infection rates remain much, much too high.
 

Absolutfun

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Enough about bugchasers! That was never a trend or even very common. Most of the tales that circulate about this phenomenon are fabricated and not based in reality. However, there is HIV fatigue that set in for some men who just numbed out and stopped caring. Among the younger generations there are no or few memories of friends or family members dying from AIDS and they have never lived in a world without the disease so HIV is perceived as about as scary to them as diabetes or cancer is to most of us. Then there is the group of those who are already HIV-positive and thus really don't have much to fear from bareback sex other than contracting another (treatable) STD.

Prosecuting people for having bareback sex doesn't solve any problems and I find it deplorable that such methods are used or encouraged. As an adult you have to take responsibility for your own actions and you cannot claim to not be aware of the risks of unprotected sex. If you agree to engage in it and you get infected, you have NO right to blame the person who infected you. Only you can be responsible for your own well-being!
 

Absolutfun

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I saw several videos on YouTube about a documentary called "The Gift" and several guys were talking about guilty they feel for being HIV negative, and that if you advocate safe sex it's an affront to those who are positive. Watch the documentary.
The Gift is not a "real" documentary. Many of the facts are misrepresented and the filmmaker completely lacks credibility as a documentarian and she has no real journalistic background. In my opinion (and that of many others who know her personally) she is a self-important loudmouth who was mainly out to get publicity. I know people who were featured in the film and their stories were very distorted by the filmmaker. Just because you hear or see something in a "documentary" doesn't mean that it is a fact, just as "reality TV" is not real life!
 

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Guys I really am baffled beyond belief. I stumbled upon a blog written by a guy who loves to have sex with multiple partners, as in like 3 guys a day, totally random and with no condom.
My first thought was, OK that's incredibly risky. As I read on though he mentioned being turned on by the idea of taking a "toxic load". Let me repeat that he and many many commentors were turned ON by the thought of fucking a guy who admittedly is HIV positive. This is incomprehensible to me.
Do you guys know any guys like this?? All of the HIV discussions I've read on LPSG have been cautionary, and never even slightly encouraging.
I understand why guys would want to have a lot of sex (testosterone) but I can't understand why they want to have sex with men who they know could very well kill them. Intentionally unprotected sex.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
I'm one of the guys who wrote on that and if you went back and saw what I wrote you'd see I pretty much raked his ass over the coals and told him how sick and revolting what he was doing was. HIV is now considered a chronic illness by some people because some people who have it live longer lives. However it's not true. It is still considered by the health community to be a fatal illness. I've known people who've had it live 20 years and others less then a year. People who make light of this illness and think they are safe from it are fools.
 

LADave

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The Gift is not a "real" documentary. Many of the facts are misrepresented and the filmmaker completely lacks credibility as a documentarian and she has no real journalistic background. In my opinion (and that of many others who know her personally) she is a self-important loudmouth who was mainly out to get publicity. I know people who were featured in the film and their stories were very distorted by the filmmaker. Just because you hear or see something in a "documentary" doesn't mean that it is a fact, just as "reality TV" is not real life!
A friend told me about the term 'the gift'. It is a real thing though not as common as it used to be. In the 1990's there were many organizations that offered different kinds of care, funds and other kinds of help to people with HIV. That was the gift. To become positive so you could be taken care of by all these people and organizations. The problem is, now that HIV has become more managable and mainstream alot of those organizations have either closed or lost their funding.I've no doubt some people purposely got infected out of guilt but that's a different thing entirely.
 

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The post above me from FuzzyKen was heavy and hard to read. I can't even begin to understand what you've gone through.


I don't know much about these 'bug chasers' but I've heard of them. In my silly mind I sort of thought it was some fantasy of "getting pregnant" since they call it 'catching the bug', the closest they could come. I'm certainly way off in my thinking but that was one of the first thoughts that came to life when I read about it.

You're not far off with this... I agree with the discomfort and confussion being expressed here, but another aspect of it is that it is becoming a fetish... an actual turn on for some men. Anything that is prevelent and has anything to do with sexuality at all, will eventually become a fetish for some.

The other thing that is taking place is a lot of gay poz men who live with a lot of other poz men just got tired of suiting up for every sexual encounter and wanted to go back to enjoying sex again... a very different thing than bug-hunting. Just plain old human emotions and sexual desire. But if you live in a city like SF or LA or NY, and some of the hottest men around are shutting you out because you are (of all things) HIV negitive... well, it can do a number on your brain.

I honestly never thought after loosing all of my friends, that we would get to a point where people were discussing things like poz/poz bareback sex, or the study that shows that hiv poz men who have undetectable viral loads are much less likely to pass on the virus, or that some would actually be seeking this fucking bug out... but I know it feels bettern now than it did back then.
 

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I am happy i never had sex with man after reading this. big turn off
For all the men here I think I can safely say we also are glad you don't have sex with men. So, if there were nosuch things as aids, that means you would be open to the idea of sex with men, since apparently not getting ill is the major factor that stops you. Then again, I'm glad I've never had sez with a woman but that's just because of attraction and lack of interest, not because I'm scared.
 

scottredleter

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I must be naive because before The Dragon said "bug chasers" I had NO CLUE this was a trend. I thought it was insane that anyone would want to knowingly get HIV. Had I known it was a fringe group I wouldnt have said anything about it. I am totally not up for drama. You can delete the whole thing if you like. I will not engage in a controversy about this. Like I said it's not my cross to bear and I'm not out to piss anybody off.

It is not a trend. It's just a thing that can take place. That's very different than a trend. I run around in some pretty wild sexual circles, and i have NEVER met one person whol actually said that they were trying to get infected... NEVER once.
 

B_thickjohnny

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Hili, people in Serbia and I dare to say in all of ex-Yugoslavia are not prone to use condoms much.
That`s why when I look for a date I always emphesise that I`m only into safe sex.
I still find it hard that there are people who want to get infected intentionally, but visiting many internet forums I have seen it happen.

This is the same in the Czech Republic. There was a recent article in the press about this - that more than 33% of people surveyed preferred sex without a condom. One-third of Czechs do not use condom during casual sex | Prague Monitor

What's more alarming is that I hear people talk about how they just get caught in the moment and wind up being barebacked. Since I'm mostly a bottom I've never allowed it except with a partner AFTER we've been tested at least twice.

That said, I've topped guys without a condom when they didn't insist. I know that's two faced but I've done it.

My cousin barebacked a guy he met online once and when the guy left my cousin realized the guy's wallet fell out of his pants pocket. My cousin opened it to see where the guy lived to return the wallet and found a HIV+ card. He freaked, went immediately to the hospital where they did DNA testing and found him negative. He was ready for the antiviral rounds etc but he was clean for months to follow. He doesn't bb anymore.
 
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snbk

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Once again I find myself siding with hilaire. No one talks about straight people "barebacking." I know straight people, male and female, who happily admit that they refuse to use condoms.

Yeah, bug chasing is a fucked-up idea. Absolutely. But I refuse to believe that bug chasers account for anything more than a lunatic fringe of society that gets way more press than it deserves because it makes gay people look bad.

straight people do disucss this. we call it 'insane' when someone has sex with someone and they aren't protected. they are typically considered ignorant and reckless.