Gay Marriage from the (Mostly) Straight Perspective

Discussion in 'Politics' started by XXLJohn1955, Dec 6, 2010.

?

Do you support marriage rights for gay citizens

  1. No, "marriage" / "civil unions" for straight citizens only

    1.7%
  2. Yes, "marriage" rights for all citizens

    70.3%
  3. All "marriage" in the legal context should be "civil unions"

    21.2%
  4. I support "civil unions" for gay citizens; but don't call it "marriage"

    11.0%
  1. XXLJohn1955

    XXLJohn1955 New Member

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    This is a poll for folks who identify themselves as mostly straight -- 70% - 100%. (I know, this is a fairly arbitrary number). I'm curious about whether or not "mostly" to "exclusively" straight people on LPSG think that your fellow gay citizens should have the same marriage rights as you...
     
  2. Bbucko

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    Oopsie: I answered the poll before reading the OP :redface:

    Individual states can issue whatever they like, but as long as DOMA stays in place, marriage equality remains an impossible dream for Americans. It's all fine and well to say "get the government out of the marriage business", but single individuals with no dependents pay the highest taxes, and the INS/DHS forces bi-national couples either out of this country or separation. Just ask MidLifeBear.
     
  3. houtx48

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    Since this is a big dick web site with only members responding I would suggest the results would little meaning.
     
  4. curious_angel

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    Meaningful? No. Interesting? Quite possibly.


    It's sickening that there is still so much opposition to gay marriage.

    Wikipedia,
    Same sex marriage in the United Kingdom.
    "An opinion poll conducted in June 2009 by Populus for The Times reported that a significant majority of the British public supported same-sex marriage; 61% agreed with the statement "Gay couples should have an equal right to get married, not just to have civil partnerships" while 33% disagreed."

    Gallup, Americans' Opposition to Gay Marriage Eases Slightly.
    "
    Forty-four percent favor legal recognition; 53% are opposed."
     
  5. houtx48

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    Interesting...............what to take bets on how it turns out?
     
  6. midlifebear

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    :

    Yes, just ask me. I was stuck in the USA this year for more months than I intended and found myself becoming physically ill because of the weird and inflexible jingoism that is now the "norm" among 'Mericuhns. At the moment -- as in right now -- it would take me 15 minutes to renounce my US Citizenship and become A. Canadian, B. a full-fledged Spaniard, or C. Argentine. I'll probably go for Spanish citizenship. That "horrible socialist old Europe" country offers more freedoms than the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Hard to imagine for the die-hard flag wavers who think 2% of the rich in the USA should receive major tax breaks.

    Something never mentioned by the USA media is how many of US Citizens living abroad are making it a permanent move. My primary care physician moved to Barcelona after graduating from medical school in Indiana and insists he's never regretted becoming a Spanish Citizen. And he's been here since 1978. Just imagine a world where everything isn't a strip mall and your selections for breakfast, lunch and dinner are not limited to McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, etc. And best of all . . . No FOX News! :mad:

    Oh, and pastors, reverends, and él pápa are constantly reminded that homophobic speech is hate speech and has no place in the democratic coalition of loosely connected provinces that the world calls Spain. And no one has a hissy fit over the word fuck or seeing full nudity in films and on TV.

    Y'all can keep yer grizzely moms, Boehner, and Mitchell. One of the nice things about my life (although Jason-who-hates-the-Euro will disagree) is that what I buy with a Euro buys a hell of a lot more than a Dollar buys in the USA. That may change, but I'll most likely be dead when and if the Dollar regains it's status as "the world currency." This translates into very few vacationing 'Mericuhns clogging the streets and making asses of themselves all over Europe. I figure that our taxes were primarily responsible, as foreign aid, in rebuild Europe after WWII so I might as well directly benefit from all those US tax dollars. They certainly aren't doing any good in the USA.

    I look forward to your kind PMs and public rants. :smile:
     
    #6 midlifebear, Dec 7, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  7. eurotop40

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    Well, I know quite a bit of US-Americans living here in Switzerland who maintain their language, celebrate Thanksgiving etc. but told me they would never go back for good.
     
  8. XXLJohn1955

    XXLJohn1955 New Member

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    It would have about as much "meaning" as any of the discussions or polls included among the Politics threads. This isn't supposed to be scientific -- just a curiousity.
     
  9. midlifebear

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    It's rather hard for me to maintain my native English, primarily because my legal husband refuses to learn English. As for celebrating Thanksgiving -- screw that. I grew up on a turkey farm in Ewetaw (Utah) and if the masses had a clue what we feed pullets for the first six weeks of their lives no one would ever eat turkey or chicken again.

    Nope, I spend 90% of my time speaking one of two odd dialects of Spanish (a mixture of catalá and castellano or a sub dialect known as Rioplatense spoken in Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay). I spend the another 9% mangling French.

    An 'Merichun asked me once if I missed the 4th of July. I kindly explained that if he knew how many four and three-day work weeks there are in a heavily Catholic country like Spain, the idea of the 4th of July (as a day off) is an insult to working Americans who only get two weeks off for a vacation each year -- if that.

    I just remembered another major positive. Currently, we're are in Buenos Aires waiting for my mother-in-law to take the big dirt nap. It's December. I've yet to hear a single Christmas carol. It's late spring down here and most Argentines disappear on December 23rd or 24th to extend their month-long vacations. You can celebrate Xmas if you really have a burning need to act like a hysterical Yankee fighting for the last X-Box at the local Walmart. No one will stop you from acting like an asshole. But generally Xmas is a mere blip at the end of calendar year. Talk about peace on Earth! :biggrin1:

    And with regard to this thread, The Squeeze and I don't worry much about "if" we have the same rights to be married as the rest of the population. We do. And when we travel together we only travel to countries that recognize our status as a married couple. Alert the media! World civilization has yet to fall because of same sex marriages.
     
    #9 midlifebear, Dec 7, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  10. tgirlsrgreat

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    which way you wagering?
     
  11. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    It's from a straight perspective, so I won't vote on this one.
    But if I had any input, I would want to see marriage rights for all citizens. At the same time I understand (even though I don't completely accept) how certain religious factions want to keep "marriage" to themselves. If that's the case and their mindsets are unwavering on that fact, I would rather see countries only recognize "civil unions" and treat "marriage" as a decorative term for the same thing. At least this way, gay & lesbian couples can legally unite, become a family if they so desired and be granted all legal rights granted to other heterosexual couples (which IMO is the most important thing).
     
  12. B_thickjohnny

    B_thickjohnny New Member

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    :You_Rock_Emoticon:

    I've been in Prague for 15 years and though I do miss New Orleans, which many don't consider a US city, I enjoy living in Europe and couldn't agree with your post any more. When I'm in the US, I feel the same things you mentioned. The Wal Mart mentality is depressing, scary and embarrassing. Even educated friends who have never traveled have a narrow perspective about things and it's always the US who should win; the US who should be on top. The don't watch other news programs even though they have BBC on their satellite TV.

    The jingoism that you mention is also strange to me especially after living in a former communist country for so long. Czech see the patriotism, flags flying everywhere and nationalism as something akin to communism. That's not freedom to them. They see the US as more of a police state than a totally free country as it tries to portray itself.

    Prague gets to me too though. The winters are extremely hard and long - gray skies constantly and people who are generally grumpy year round. Things here are more expensive than anywhere in Europe. I generally go to Germany once a month for a big shopping spree which includes things from electronics to cereal to even toilet paper. When going to Dresden signs are now in German and Czech, that's how much business the Czech businesses lose as a result of their high pricing schemes.

    If I had a chance to move to Barcelona, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, you really need to speak Spanish to live there, I think and my HS Spanish, even with a lisp, won't cut it.

    Regarding citizenship, I heard that giving up US citizenship comes with a price. Someone told me that the IRS levies a $10,000 charge to cover any outstanding taxes that the person MIGHT be trying to avoid, even if you have everything documented that you have no outstanding debt etc. Has anyone experienced this first hand?
     
    #12 B_thickjohnny, Dec 7, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  13. midlifebear

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    I've never heard that the USA tries to hold up folks for $10,000 for renouncing their citizenship. If that's true, good luck to the US Government trying to collect it. Sounds suspiciously illegal. If such a "fine" is required, I'll make a special, private appointment with an embassy official and be sure to deftly stuff the $10,000 -- in small bills -- up his or her ass.

    I'm sorry you are stuck in Prague (Praja). I had to laugh when you mentioned that the people are generally grumpy. I found elderly Czech women to be particularly dangerous, yelling at everyone on the trolleys to get up so they could take their seats. And they aren't afraid to whack the back of your legs with their canes and yell that you need to get out of their way. But take heart. You do have access to some of the best beer in all of Europe. The Stella Dam sold throughout Spain tastes like recycled piss -- still, it's better than Coors or Budweiser. :biggrin1:
     
  14. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    I didn't vote for any of the options. If gay people want some form of legal contract to give their union recognition they don't need any "rights" to draw one up, they can just go along and see their solicitor. Marriage is tied in with the church, and if the church refuse to give their blessing to any couple I don't believe they should be compelled to do so, it's their right to be left alone by the state.

    That said, there is the issue of state recognition with benefits etc, in some jurisdictions being married is actually tax efficient. To those that bring up this objection I say the government shouldn't be incentivising certain types behaviour with monetary rewards. Whether you're married or not, or whether you have kids or not all circumstances should be treated equally by the state from the perspective of tax and benefits. That means everyone is treated FAIRLY and EVENLY.

    See what I nice person I am? I believe we should all be treated equally and nobody should have an added advantage because they're: straight/gay/single/married/have kids etc etc etc.

    Waits for the howls of abuse..............
     
    #14 Speculator, Dec 7, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  15. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    So are you suggesting that our nation abolish all tax and financial incentives for legally married couples or domestic partnerships even though their fiscal and societal responsibilities are higher and more demanding than a single person? Because if you are, then you're not treating everyone fairly and evenly. Even though I, myself, will probably never lay down with a woman to have my own children, I know most parents need some kind of assistance to help raise their families. To make them fend on their own just to force some sense of "equality" is just as shortsighted as preventing gay & lesbian couples those same rights just because churches want to lay claim to a label. Just change the name to "civil union" and grant them all the same legal benefits (as granted by our government) as the others.

    You claim to believe it, but your rhetoric doesn't equal the realism of the situation.
     
  16. Drifterwood

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    Straight, and voted for everyone to have civil unions. Having watched several friends suffer incredibly through the arcane nature of church marriage contractual responsibilities, I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, even you Homos :tongue:.

    If you are Gay and religious and want a Church Marriage, I have to say that that is none of my business. It's not for me to tell a private organisation how to behave, so long as they are not breaking the law. Which of course is an issue here in the UK because they are breaking our discrimination laws as I understand them, by refusing to marry Gay people. This is as yet unresolved as far as I know.

    So whilst I voted against Church marriages for everyone, you can do what you like IMO.
     
  17. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    Your logic is broken, yes I'm suggesting that if we treat everybody equally we end up with a fairer society. Your concept of fairness differs from mine because you obviously believe some people should have extra special rights and protections, well I believe in the same human rights for all. If you give some people extra rights then by definition others are less protected and you end up in a two tier society. In other words it's a bit like a minor form of apartheid, but backwards. A nonsense political position.

    We could go into the rights and wrongs of taxation and benefits but that's a different topic. Suffice to say that I believe in a universal citizen's dividend, the fairest benefit of all.
     
    #17 Speculator, Dec 7, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  18. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Seriously, I just love how you call making exceptions to people based on individual circumstances to be "special rights" just so you can propagate some convoluted belief about equality. This is by far one of your most dishonest argumentative stances, and this won't work against me just like how you tried to label me a "libtard" a million times. There is an ideological interpretation to "equality"... one that is firmly entrenched into your rhetoric and allows you to create ignorant views such as your latest gaffe. And there's a realistic view... one that understands that as long as there are social & financial classes, people are born into a system of inequality that can't just be fixed by getting rid of everything you deem to be "special".

    It's impossible to believe in this as long as you believe in the existence of social and financial classes. The amount of civilian & government influence needed to dismantle the current system, then instigate & maintain one where everyone is born into a financial & social structure of equality would be tremendous. Every town, city & state would have to maintain the same level of access to education, food, safety, jobs, etc... And since you also don't like the idea of government interfering into anyone's personal affairs, your stance is nothing more than a load of ideological hypocrisy. But hey, as long as you get to keep your money in your pocket so that Joe Schmoe doesn't get a handout, right? :rolleyes:
     
  19. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    Just so we're clear, I advocate treating everyone as equals in the eyes of the state and this is nothing but ideological hypocrisy. But you believe in giving select people certain rights and others some/no rights and this "fair" because we're all different. This type of logic is behind every tyrannical regime in human history, it doesn't take a genius to realise that if you seperate citizens in an arbitrary fashion you end up living under some form of dictatorship.




    I think you (deliberately?) misunderstood my point. If there's any spare cash left over after the basics such as defence and the court system have been paid for the money should be redistributed evenly, like a dividend from a share. It would require less state apparatus, not more.
     
    #19 Speculator, Dec 7, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  20. B_curiousme01

    B_curiousme01 New Member

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    People should be able to choose who they wish to spend the rest of their lives with. The government should have no say whatsoever.
     
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