Gay Marriage

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by Imported, Mar 27, 2004.

  1. Imported

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    versbttm: I know this is a touchy subject all over the country. And hits very close to home for a lot of memebers here. Myself included. Of course I support Gay Marriage, but I am curious as to how the rest of you feel.
     
  2. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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  3. GottaBigOne

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    I hold a very minority position.
    For me marriage is a religious thing that most religions restrict to hetero relationships. I don't think anyone should force a religion to accept those which they do not want to accept. That's just extremely un-american.

    That being said, I am also an atheist and believe that religion is bullshit, complete bullshit. So while I don't think that gays should be able to marry, I don't think that hetero people should be able to "marry" at least in the legal sense. I recognize the importance and need for a family structure so I think that it is necessary for two people to be able to bond and become a family, sharing certain legal bonds like taxes, property, and everything else that goes along with "marriage."

    So I guess what I'm saying is that government having something to do with marriage should not be. Civil unions are fine, because there is no religious aspect involved. Separation of church and state is probably the most important thing that our founding fathers put into the constitution and needs to be protected.

    So Civil Unions for all. The heteroes will still be able to marry ( have a religious ceremony) and not feel like their unions are being desecrated by gay marriage. And Gays will be able to start their own families and enjoy every right and priviledge that heteroes do when married.

    I can forsee a fire storm of arguments coming my way. Let me just pre-emptively say that you've probably misunderstood me.
     
  4. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#2 date=03/28/04 at 11:25:04]I hold a very minority position.
    For me marriage is a religious thing that most religions restrict to hetero relationships.[/quote]

    I am very careful to differentiate between marriage and matrimony. Marriage is not a religious 'thing'; it is a legal state. A marriage is recognised as a legal union without having to go through any religious ceremony. Matrimony, on the other hand, is a religious term. It is living together as man and wife as accepted by one's religion. Most religions base their denomination's view of marriage (=matrimony) on scriptural basis. There is no question that the Bible specifically states that a marriage consists of a man and a woman. However, the Bible is a religious text, not a compendium of modern legal terms. Congregations are free to confer or deny their blessings on the union of a couple according to their religious views. That has absolutely no bearing on the legality of their marriage.

    How sad. When religion is implemented according to its principles, it's a beautiful thing. It provides people with a sense of community, a people of similar purpose praying together for the common good. It can provide a firm basis for one's moral conscience. It can provide hope to those who feel despair. That's bullshit? No. Only when religion is perverted into a tool for persecution, alienation or personal gain does it run afoul of its noble purpose. Religion is not bullshit; misuse of religion is bullshit. It has then ceased to be the comfort that religion is meant to be.
     
  5. jonb

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    [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#2 date=03/28/04 at 11:25:04]I hold a very minority position.
    For me marriage is a religious thing that most religions restrict to hetero relationships.[/quote]
    Actually, most religions restrict it to being between one man and several women. LOL

    Legally speaking, churches would be allowed to choose on an individual basis. At least that's how I understand it.
     
  6. Imported

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    rs_ny: Nice distinction DMW - as usual (Marriage vs Matrimony). Its just time - no long past time - to get back to a division of church and state - let the state confer what legal distinction it can to all people.

    I think the issue is really political cover.
     
  7. GottaBigOne

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    So if marriage and matrimony are two separate things then anyone should be able to marry legally, i just think the use of the word "marriage" is a little misleading and implies a religious tradition.

    I do not deny that religion doesn't serve some purpose some of the time and may help people feel better about their lives or their deaths, or whatever, but that doesn't make it true, that makes it wishful thinking. Bullshit is not decided by what is good ro bad, it is not a value judgement. it is a judgement on the veracity of an argument and its possibility of being true.

    Now I don't want to get involved in a theological debate but I will say that it is not possible to prove the existence of a god using reasoning and evidence. A lot of people will say that I can not prove that one doesn't exist. That is true. But it is not my responsibility to refute religion, it is the religionists duty to support his claims, when he cannot, then his claims must be dismissed. The burden of proof lays with the one making the assertion.

    I for one would like to believe in God, the idea makes life more existence more meaningful, and makes accepting death a whole lot easier. But no matter how much I want to believe I can't make myself believe, because if its not true, its not true. Theres no way around it.
     
  8. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#6 date=03/29/04 at 07:45:35]So if marriage and matrimony are two separate things then anyone should be able to marry legally, i just think  the use of the word "marriage" is a little misleading and implies a religious tradition.[/quote]

    WEll, strictly speaking, anybody can engage in matrimony in a church that accepst all types of relationships. Judging from the latest lawsuits, not everbody can get into marriage, before the city. So, in general, at this moment, I think gay couples have more chance of getting matrimony in a liberal church, than marriage in fron of the city. But I might be mistaken.

    [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#6 date=03/29/04 at 07:45:35]
    I do not deny that religion doesn't serve some purpose some of the time and may help people feel better about their lives or their deaths, or whatever, but that doesn't make it true, that makes it wishful thinking. Bullshit is not decided by what is good ro bad, it is not a value judgement. it is a judgement on the veracity of an argument and its possibility of being true.

    Now I don't want to get involved in a theological debate but I will say that it is not possible to prove the existence of a god using reasoning and evidence. A lot of people will say that I can not prove that one doesn't exist. That is true. But it is not my responsibility to refute religion, it is the religionists duty to support his claims, when he cannot, then his claims must be dismissed. The burden of proof lays with the one making the assertion.

    I for one would like to believe in God, the idea makes life more existence more meaningful, and makes accepting death a whole lot easier. But no matter how much I want to believe I can't make myself believe, because if its not true, its not true. Theres no way around it.[/quote]

    The thing is, that religion is all a matter of perspective. Atheists refer to religion as if it was a way of life, some sort of Yoga seminar, with the ultimate goal to lead a fuller and happier life. You guys start from life and work yourself upto the reason for why we have -created- a God. Christians work the other way round. To us, it is no question about whether He exists or not. It is a given. Our life is something to enjoy in the best way possible, but it is also a means to do good, so you can have an even fuller life when this one is over.

    Reasoning could prove the existence of God, but it depends on the interpretation. But speaking for myself, without sounding all to dramatical, I have evidence in my heart.

    You say "no matter how much I want to believe I can't make myself believe, because if its not true, its not true." Maybe I am getting a bit filosofical now, but what you have just done by saying that sentence, is creating a truth for yourself. As I have my truth where God is real, you created your truth by saying there is no God, there are no Gods. But then it is valid to ask you the question of proving that. You assert it is simply not true that there is a God, it is an assertion, so how do you know. I am not trying to be a smartass here, simply trying to maybe make you look at things differently.

    Well...in conclusion, yes, religion is something very difficult. But that's why it is called 'faith'. Not seeing, yet believing. But it's there.
     
  9. Imported

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    Tender: [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#6 date=03/29/04 at 07:45:35] but that doesn't make it true, that makes it wishful thinking. Bullshit is not decided by what is good ro bad, it is not a value judgement. it is a judgement on the veracity of an argument and its possibility of being true.

    Now I don't want to get involved in a theological debate but I will say that it is not possible to prove the existence of a god using reasoning and evidence. A lot of people will say that I can not prove that one doesn't exist. That is true. But it is not my responsibility to refute religion, it is the religionists duty to support his claims, when he cannot, then his claims must be dismissed. The burden of proof lays with the one making the assertion.

    I for one would like to believe in God, the idea makes life more existence more meaningful, and makes accepting death a whole lot easier. But no matter how much I want to believe I can't make myself believe, because if its not true, its not true. Theres no way around it.[/quote]

    Can you prove God DOESNT exist?

    ah, NO.

    so how can you be so sure he DOESNT, when you cannot prove either way? that doesnt make it true that he doesnt exist.
    it just means you cannot prove he does or doesnt.


    Tender
     
  10. GottaBigOne

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    i never said I would prove that God didn't exist. But since I can't that deosn't mean he does.

    If i were to say that a Little invisible immaterial gnome was living in your head and eating cheetohs you wouldn't be able to prove he wasn't there either, that doesn't mean he is there. Since I would have no proof that there was a gnome in your head then you would be forced not to beilieve it and if you decided to believe anyway in spite of the lack of proof then I would say you were a gullible follower and that your Faith in my assertion of a gnome in your head was just as unwarranted as FAITH in God.

    Just because you make something a "Given" doesn't make it true, you still must prove that which you are trying to postulate. The only "given" I can think of is the existence of matter. But again there is proof of that because we are made of mater and everything around is made of matter so how could we deny it?
     
  11. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#9 date=03/29/04 at 09:19:45]
    Just because you make something a "Given" doesn't make it true, you still must prove that which you are trying to postulate. The only "given" I can think of is the existence of matter. But again there is proof of that because we are made of mater and everything around is made of matter so how could we deny it?[/quote]

    Gottabigone:

    Let's see if I can get you into my train of thought. I tend to sometimes babble, so don't mind me if your not following.

    You have to admit that seeing things as we do, is really all a matter of perspective. You see the things around you as ' matter' which means you interpret all things as a bunch of atoms colliding non-stop, and falling apart when we die.

    I see things around me as creations of God. God to me, was never created, isn't matter, but was always there, has no beginning, nor end. Hard to fathom, but it's what I believe.

    I admit I cannot explain, nor prove my God. You say the Christians statement that there is a God, is an assertion. My point is, what you don't realise, is that you assumption is as much an assertion of the reality we live in, as is mine. It's hard for me to make this understandable, but ok.

    You say the only given you know is 'matter'. A mistake here though, a mistake commonly made also in the world of research, is that you haven't explained 'matter' yet. 'Matter' is as much an asumption as is claiming there is a God. To me for example, this 'matter' indeed IS proof that there is a God. See where I'm getting at? I could say: I believe in God, because I see all around me the matter He has created. Now if I really claim this (I do ;)) I'll probably get a bunch of oooohs and aaaahs.

    Oi...nevermind, my head is spinning... 8)
     
  12. B_RoysToy

    B_RoysToy New Member

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    It's so difficult to have to use finite words to explain infinite 'things' like God. God is love, which has always existed. Is heaven a 'place' -- only because we have ascribed this word to explain it. Spirits don't need a physical place to be, neither does God. As long as we are confined to 'places' this will have to suffice -- there will be fuller understanding some day. :)

    L
     
  13. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=RoysToy link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#11 date=03/29/04 at 12:34:33]Is heaven a 'place' -- only because we have ascribed this word to explain it.   [/quote]

    Thanx Luke, thát one sentence says what I was trying to make clear.......in my longer than life post :-/

    ;)

    Javier
     
  14. GottaBigOne

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    This is precisely why I didn't want to get into a theological argument. u admitted that you can not prove the existence of your god so you admit to believing in him for no reason, only because you have "faith" and find evidence in your heart. This is why i feel no need to argue with you, because no matter what I say you will not take my position seriously, you have too much invested in the idea of god and there for have too much to lose when taking my position seriously.

    I mean you no disrespect of course, I just don't like to argue theism because there is no point. A person will come to the truth on his own, he will embrace his foolishness as long as it serves him.

    im glad you have something to believe in that makes you feel good. So do i, its called the truth (or the unbiased search of it anyway)
     
  15. Imported

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    Javierdude22: [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#13 date=03/29/04 at 19:33:46] u admitted that you can not prove the existence of your god so you admit to believing in him for no reason, only because you have "faith" and find evidence in your heart. This is why i feel no need to argue with you, because no matter what I say you will not take my position seriously, you have too much invested in the idea of god and there for have too much to lose when taking my position seriously.

    I mean you no disrespect of course, I just don't like to argue theism because there is no point. A person will come to the truth on his own, he will embrace his foolishness as long as it serves him.

    im glad you have something to believe in that makes you feel good. So do i, its called the truth (or the unbiased search of it anyway)[/quote]

    You ask me not to dismiss your claims, and that I should try arguments to refute them.

    How can I use reasoning when all you give me is statements like 'foolishness' 'believing for no reason' that are empty in itsself and provide me little to even try to refute. This 'believing for no reason' is also your words, don't lay them in my mouth please.

    I don't have anything invested dude...I have never believed in anything just because. I am at this point because of what I know, what I've seen, and what I've experienced...to you it seems unimaginable and a weak argument when I say this. But I know....know dude, that God is real. Not because my parents told me so, not because I feel so lonely without a goal in my life, not because I need something desperately.

    You want proof right? The thing is that I have proof, but it's only there to see for those who wánt to see it. If somebody touched you...that would seem proof that that person exists right? I mean, you felt them grab hold of you. Well, He touched me dude, that's my proof of knowing the Big Man upstairs exists.

    So please, let me and my foolishness be, than I'll let yóur foolishness and you be as well.
     
  16. B_RoysToy

    B_RoysToy New Member

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    [quote author=Javierdude24 link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#14 date=03/30/04 at 06:33:45] . . . You want proof right? The thing is that I have proof, but it's only there to see for those who wánt to see it. If somebody touched you...that would seem proof that that person exists right? I mean, you felt them grab hold of you. Well, He touched me dude, that's my proof of knowing the Big Man upstairs exists. [/quote]
    . . . and His words coming through you just substantiates the fact, Javierdude24. I know, I've been there, and I can tell you the date and time that He touched me, 53 years ago. Keep telling it like it is, man.
    There's a reason for it all.

    Luke
     
  17. GottaBigOne

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    wow.
    thats really all i can say.

    wow
     
  18. jonb

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    Well, gods are essentially untestable. Nothing to fight over, since we'll never be able to prove or disprove their existence short of showing the deity. (Eyewitness reporting isn't enough; look up 'cryptozoology' to see why.) Even showing the deity doesn't prove it's that deity; it could be Jesus. It could also be Vishnu, Osiris, or Coyote. But I will say, atheists can be a bit hoity-toity about it: If you have any opinion at all about 'under God', you're a lamer. If you're against 'in God we trust', you're a lamer; if you're for it, you're a blasphemous lamer. LOL
     
  19. GottaBigOne

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    lamer? weird word, i have no idea what it means.

    Lets get off the discussion about god please, thers no point. This is a thread about gay marriage. lets get back to that.
     
  20. Imported

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    RedNumber3: This is my first post. I've lurked for a while. :p

    Gay Marriage... I live in Vancouver B.C., Canada. Since the early '90's, here we've had same-sex union human rights. Since last July, we've honoured 'Gay Marriage'. There was debate over it but it was WAY more low-key than in the States. In British Columbia, it was decided that it was in violation of human rights NOT to allow it. Separation of Church and State…

    It's a ceremony, not necessarily a religious one. There's an officiator, a couple of witnesses and some vows are recited. Most B.C. church organizations honour it (the ruling) but no priests are *forced* into doing what they don’t believe in. God doesn’t really come into question though. Since July there’s been little news coverage of whole issue, other than the in-flux of Americans coming here to marry.

    Please read John Boswell’s ‘Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe’ (New York: Villard Books, 1994. Pp. 412 + xvii. ISBN 0-679-432280. US $25.00, Can. $33.50.) if you think Christianity holds the copyright to ‘Marriages’.

    (If I've posted anything incorrectly, please post me and I will correct it, other than BLASTING me here!)
     
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