Gay Marriage

[13788]

warmsunshine: RedNumber3, thanks for getting back on topic. I'd be interested to know which way each person voted (Tender too...but I have a suspicion of which way she went already...)

I'm, of course, for gay marriage all the way.

 

[jonb]

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=0#18 date=03/30/04 at 20:28:07]lamer? weird word, i have no idea what it means.[/quote]
Basically a pun on 'flamer', since people who flame are lame.

Lets get off the discussion about god please, thers no point. This is a thread about gay marriage. lets get back to that.

Okay. The good news is, New York recognizes Canadian marriages, and Canada recognizes gay marriages.

 

[13788]

Inwood: Actually I liked the god argument that was going on. So I'll put in a few words. And to clarify...I have a belief in God. I just don't necessarily think most churchs reflect what God is about. And that's just my opinion.

But back to gottabigone. I think i understood his point. In trying to convince someone who might hold his belief about God's lack of existence...you can't use an argument that a believer has no trouble understanding. If you want to convince him of God's existance you have to present your argument in what might be called a scientific format. You know, E=EC squared type of thing.

It isn't his duty to refute you about it since you are the one trying to convince him of something. If you were both arguing the point then he would have to try to present his side in a manner that fits within the framework of your faith. Difficult yes but no more difficult then your effort to prove you point in his framework.

So I feel that is what he was trying to say. And if I did get it right I agree with it too. And if I got it wrong well I'm sure I'll hear about it.

Too bad there isn't search function on this site so that you can pop in something like "marriage" and see if there's another topic elsewhere that's current with something you want to comment on.

 

[jonb]

I'm sure you mean E=mc[sup]2[/sup] Actually, that's why Einstein rejected quantum mechanics; it threatened to destroy the cause-and-effect relationship: "God does not play dice with the universe." Five'll get you ten a theory of everything doesn't exist. LOL (Actually, there is one called string theory, which substitutes ten-dimensional circular strings for subatomic particles. But it's untestable, so it's useless.)

BTW, there is a search function. Just click the button with "Search" written in seafoam.

 

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Javierdude22: [quote author=Inwood link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#22 date=03/31/04 at 18:09:04]Actually I liked the god argument that was going on.[/quote]

I like discussions as well. We had an IM discussion though that didn't really work out so to speak.

[quote author=Inwood link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#22 date=03/31/04 at 18:09:04]
But back to gottabigone. I think i understood his point.

If you want to convince him of God's existance you have to present your argument in what might be called a scientific format. You know, E=EC squared type of thing.

It isn't his duty to refute you about it since you are the one trying to convince him of something.
[/quote]

I understood his point too. Unfortunately I wasn't convincing him of God's existence. He was convincing me of God's non-existence. What got a rise out of me were a few disrespectful remarks about my religion. I could care less if one doesn't believe in God and such, but let lil' old me be.

His belief system is based on what he sees around him. My belief system is based on what I feel and the meaning I give the things around me. Rationally speaking, who is gonna say one of us is using the correct or wrong methods?

We tried crossing over to eachother's belief systems. From see to feel, and vice versa. Of course I understand his, he doesn't understand mine. It seemed useless from that point on top continue. It would be the same as asking a blind man to describe the meaning of a Dali painting. Kinda hard.

I am more than happy to continue it though, be it that there will be a bit more respect and effort.

 

[GottaBigOne]

javier i totally understand where you're coming from. I just don't think it is the correct way to go about getting to "truth."
I apologize if anything i said about your belief was offensive, I didn't mean to be. I just don't agree with a lot of things that religion tries to do with the population, i think a lot of thoes things are abominable actually, and I think I have reason to. Almost every war going on in the world now has something to do with religion. The holocaust, the crusades, the burning of witches, and countless other atrocities have come about because of religion. (I am by no way saying that the holocaust was the fault of Jews, I know some of you will take it that way, I'm only saying that if religion didn't exist, then religious intolerance wouldn't either, I know its a bad example and probably would lose me some credit with everyone but i do think that the religious persecution that Jews endured was the result of religious attitudes shared by the nazis, i know some of you will say that the nazis were an atheist organization but atheism was not the motivation for what they did, and atheists share nothing in common with each other than the lack of belief in God)

I also do not believe that you deserve to have your beliefs be given automotic respect. respect has to be earned, and religion is by no way immune from this. if someone had a belief that magical horses the size of thimbles arose from your scrotum every night and painted the stars in the sky you would not give them respect but think they were severely delusional and in need of help. This is how i veiw almost every form of religion or mysticism. That includes but is not limited to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, withcraft, Voodoo, Greek Mythology, Magic, etc.

Inwood, you do understand what I was trying to say. Thank you for being openminded.

 

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Tender: [quote author=warmsunshine link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#20 date=03/31/04 at 06:39:23]RedNumber3, (Tender too...but I have a suspicion of which way she went already...)

 [/quote]

you suspect too much dear.

I voted against.

Tender

 

[13788]

reir: Not to distract everyone with the topic, but the issue at stake for me are the federal benefits that married heterosexual couples get to enjoy (yet gay couples do not). Everyone is so concerned about the demise of the "sacred institution of marriage," etc. etc. I personally don't care whether you call it marriage, domestic partnership, civil union, etc. so long as I'm able to receive the same federal benefits as any other legally commited heterosexual relationship. Civil unions and domestic partnerships do allow some state-level benefits in certain states, but of course none allow any on the federal level.

Then again, some conservative groups are against any legal definition of a homosexual relationship (be it civil union or otherwise), and the whole "gay marriage" controversy is their chance to spotlight the issue and lobby against it. I suppose I understand their position, but I don't see any constitutional or other legal ground for it.

(for those who couldn't tell, I'm gay)

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#25 date=03/31/04 at 19:33:21]javier i totally understand where you're coming from. I just don't think it is the correct way to go about getting to "truth."[/quote]

You really don't understand, even though you think you do. Like I said before, rationally speaking, who is gonna say your method is the correct way of getting the truth, or my way is the correct one. Since we differ on the methods, we'll never reach a conclusion. Why continue then?

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#25 date=03/31/04 at 19:33:21]
I just don't agree with a lot of things that religion tries to do with the population, i think a lot of thoes things are abominable actually, and I think I have reason to. Almost every war going on in the world now has something to do with religion. The holocaust, the crusades,  the burning of witches, and countless other atrocities have come about because of religion.

i do think that the religious persecution that Jews endured was the result of religious attitudes shared by the nazis, i know some of you will say that the nazis were an atheist organization but atheism was not the motivation for what they did, and atheists share nothing in common with each other than the lack of belief in God)
[/quote]

I am sorry to say you have got you facts mixed up. Two things:

You mistake religion with the church in your post. Some churches have persecuted people through the centuries, in the name of God. Humans tend to read what they want to read in the bible, I agree with you on that. Combine that with the tendency of humans to be individualists, selfish, and hostile (I'm not being negative, look around you, it's true) and you have the crucades, inquisition, and the conquest of the Americas. My religion never asked them to. There are a few laws in the bible to which you must hold yourself. They are the ten commandments. The new testament summarized the ten commandments by saying, love God with your entire heart, mind, and soul. The one equal to that, is love your neighbour like you love yourself. The new testament is a new alliance between God and man, man should have friggin' read it.

Then: Do you really think that without religion we wouldn't have wars? I have said this before, I wish peopkle would seriously run their statements through. Like I said, man has a tendency to convince people of whatever their culture is, to conquer, and be selfish. Without religion we would simply have wars over something else. Blame humanity, not religion, they are very different things. We have had a cold war over communism, imperialism, wars over resources, and yes religions. They are simply a reason for us to take on arms.

I won't go into the causes of the WW2 and why the Nazis persecuted the Jews. All I can say it had something to do with a charismatic guy who should have been in the looney bin, but like many, instead became the leader of a country. What had gyspies to do with religion? In any case, if religion wouldn't have existed, it would have been their big noeses. The country was poor, they were rich, scapegoat.

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#25 date=03/31/04 at 19:33:21]
I also do not believe that you deserve to have your beliefs be given automotic respect. respect has to be earned, and religion is by no way immune from this.

they were severely delusional and in need of help. This is how i veiw almost every form of religion or mysticism. That includes but is not limited to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, withcraft, Voodoo, Greek Mythology, Magic, etc.
[/quote]

Like someone said before, I sense a lot of anger from you towards religion. All I can say it is clouding your judgement, and your ability to rationalize and discuss.

I could do a few things with what you said above, one of them is getting really angry. I DO ask respect for my beliefs dude, you know why? Because they are MY beliefs. If you don't respects my opinions on religion, my belief system, than I would rather have you not adress your posts towards me in the future.

There really is a fool moon out....there must be

 

[GottaBigOne]

You know what bothers me the most? the fact that when you die you won't find out you were wrong.

there is no justice

 

[GottaBigOne]

Another thing. They aren't two differing methods to reach the truth. Reason is the only to get to truth, faith is not an alternative. My method is correct and yours is not. If I simply believed something to be true it does not make it true. If I have faith that the sky is made of blue cheese it doesn't mean I'm right. The only way to find out what the sky truly is made of is to use reason.

It is true that you can have faith that something is and then have it validated later, usually by reason. i can have faith that the earth is orbiting around the sun, Yes I would be correct but I wouldn't know for sure until I had either wtinessed it happen or taken the data I've collected and made sense of it; the interpretation of evidence.

the one basic problem I have with all religion whether it be church based or not is that it attempts to arrive at truth by simply stating what it wants to be true, then it tries to run other peoples lives using said assertions. I have no problem with anyone using what has been proven to be true to dictate to another how they should live. I don't think that person should listen to them automatically but they should take it into consideration. Take the homosexuality thing in the bible(and yes its there) I hear so many christian fundamentalists saying that homosexuality is wrong simply because the bible says it is. For me this is not a good enough reason to make a value judgement on acts of homosexuality. if they were reason then I'd be a little more receptive to the idea that homosexuality is bad i.e. that anal sex leads to colon cancer or dyptheria. If that were ture then I'd have to side with the side that said sodomy should be looked down upon.

Even if something I agree with is instituted but was founded upon faith type beliefs I'd dismiss it until evidence were presented. Example: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I agree with that. But if the reason presented to me to follow it were that there was a 33 year old man with wounds in his hands who rose from the dead 2,000 years ago said I should or he would throw me into hell for all eternity then I'd have to take it less seriously. Its only a coincidence that the golden rule works ethically.

Faith is no reason to believe something. It is dangerous. Because theres a higher chance you might be wrong, because reason is missing.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#29 date=04/01/04 at 22:36:20]You know what bothers me the most? the fact that when you die you won't find out you were wrong.
[/quote]

Of course not!...that's cause I'm right

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#30 date=04/01/04 at 22:54:08]Another thing. They aren't two differing methods to reach the truth. Reason is the only to get to truth, faith is not an alternative. My method is correct and yours is not. .[/quote]

First of all, you're a Nazi. Now I know why you brought up the example.

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#30 date=04/01/04 at 22:54:08]
If I simply believed something to be true it does not make it true. If I have faith that the sky is made of blue cheese it doesn't mean I'm right. The only way to find out what the sky truly is made of is to use reason..[/quote]

But let's wrap this up. Like I said TWICE, and I'll say it AGAIN, just because yóu say reason is the only way to get to truth doesn't mean you're right. You don't have the monopoly on truth or how to get there, nor do I.

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#29 date=04/01/04 at 22:36:20]
the one basic problem I have with all religion whether it be church based or not is that it attempts to arrive at truth by simply stating what it wants to be true, then it tries to run other peoples lives using said assertions. I have no problem with anyone using what has been proven to be true to dictate to another how they should live.[/quote]

I am sorry, like I said to you before. You don't know the first thing of Christianity. And I don't mean the text in the Bible.

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#29 date=04/01/04 at 22:36:20]Faith is no reason to believe something. It is dangerous. Because theres a higher chance you might be wrong, because reason is missing.[/quote]

I honestly doubt you know what the word reason actually means and how to apply it. Reason is the power to think and be rational and logical. Not everything is this world is rational or logical. In fact, we seem to do our best to be as illogical as possible.

If A=B and B=C then A=C? Reason, but very untrue.

For me this discussion has ended, like I said before, it is useless.

 

[B_RoysToy]

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#29 date=04/01/04 at 22:36:20]You know what bothers me the most? the fact that when you die you won't find out you were wrong. there is no justice[/quote]
Guess what. If we are fortunate enough to be in the presence of God, mundane things like that will not enter our supremely happy minds, GottaBig.

This also ends any comments I've made re. this episode, Javier. Peace.

Luke

 

[13788]

warmsunshine:

RedNumber3, (Tender too...but I have a suspicion of which way she went already...)

you suspect too much dear.

I voted against.

Tender

Um...You're being kind of dense. I'm well aware of your right wing political persuasions from other conversations that I've responded to you about. I knew WELL in advance of your reply that you were one of the 9 people who obviously have some sort of problem with gay people, abortions, democrats and other liberal issues in general and marriages between gay people in particular.

 

[GottaBigOne]

Just because you say I don't have a monoploy on truth doesn't make it so. Make an argument and stop throwing insults at me, thats the first sign of someone losing an argument; personl attacks.

Ive read you say certain things over and over gaain, but you give no arguments for what you say, you just state them and expect them to be accepted, a common mistake among religion and its imps.

Explain for emalpe how A=B, B=C, so A=C is untrue??? Are you that stupid that you can't understand a simple case of logic. I'm begining to think you believe in whatever it is you believe in because you just don't have the metal capacity to grasp simple physics.

And by the way, any time you try to say that christianity and the bible are not tied to each other, yoiu lose all credibility with what you think you are talking about. You are one of those people that makes up your own beliefs from what you see as palatable from the bible and you dismiss everything you dont agree with. You have your own version of christianity and fail to realise that if you do do this you lose the "Divinity"that is infered from the bible.
Basically, you made it all up, so then why should I believe you? I can understand someone believing in the bible because they think its the word of some supernatural being. But just making things up and taking them seriously, that is truly absurd.

Actually the saddest thing is that I am alone on this forum in my thinking. No one has come forward to help me with my arguments. Its sad that the truth is in such a minority.

If you want to call me names, go ahead, it just proves that you have no argument for me.

 

[13788]

Simon9: I'm reading some pretty strange statements throughout some of these arguments.

For instance If A=B and B=C then A=C may NOT be true? It is a fundamental that it MUST be true. Nothing to argue.

OTOH, Gotta Big, are you saying you DO have a monopoly on the truth? Uh-oh. Or to quote you, "wow". Surely you didn't mean THAT, right?

And btw, I don't have a problem with same-sex (non-religious) marriages. And I'm not gay, either. And if some churches want to recognize it, fine by me. Their choice.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: [quote author=Simon9 link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#35 date=04/02/04 at 12:29:00]I'm reading some pretty strange statements throughout some of these arguments.

For instance If A=B and B=C then A=C may NOT be true? It is a fundamental that it MUST be true. Nothing to argue.
[/quote]

Simon: In physics it indeed must be true, and is true. However, we were talking about reason. Within reason this equation doesn't work. E.g. :

If your sock is a piece of clothing, and your sock is smelly, doesn't mean all your clothes smell. Reason is full of assumptions, that is why it is hardly the only correct way of getting the 'truth'.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: [quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#34 date=04/02/04 at 11:57:35]Just because you say I don't have a monoploy on truth doesn't make it so. .[/quote]

Great...case closed.

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#34 date=04/02/04 at 11:57:35]
Ive read you say certain things over and over gaain, but you give no arguments for what you say, you just state them and expect them to  be accepted, a common mistake among religion and its imps..[/quote]

Quote me where I did that. You must hav been reading your own posts.

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#34 date=04/02/04 at 11:57:35]
And by the way, any time you try to say that christianity and the bible are not tied to each other, yoiu lose all credibility with what you think you are talking about. You are one of those people that makes up your own beliefs from what you see as palatable from the bible and you dismiss everything you dont agree with. You have your own version of christianity and fail to realise that if you do do this you lose the "Divinity"that is infered from the bible.
Basically, you made it all up, so then why should I believe you? I can understand someone believing in the bible because they think its the word of some supernatural being. But just making things up and taking them seriously, that is truly absurd..[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about!? Maybe you wanna chck my post again. It said something about the practices of the CHURCH being different from what faith asks of us.

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#34 date=04/02/04 at 11:57:35]
Actually the saddest thing is that I am alone on this forum in my thinking. No one has come forward to help me with my arguments. Its sad that the truth is in such a minority.[/quote]

Try fighting your own battles.

[quote author=GottaBigOne link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#34 date=04/02/04 at 11:57:35]
If you want to call me names, go ahead, it just proves that you have no argument for me.[/quote]

I have no argument for you.

 

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Tender: [quote author=warmsunshine link=board=meetgreet;num=1080412487;start=20#33 date=04/02/04 at 09:14:02]


Um...You're being kind of dense.  I'm well aware of your right wing political persuasions from other conversations that I've responded to you about.  I knew WELL in advance of your reply that you were one of the 9 people who obviously have some sort of problem with gay people, abortions, democrats and other liberal issues in general and marriages between gay people in particular.[/quote]


Well, if you are well aware of how stupid i am, and how you should run for president, then why did you between your lines say

'oh, we all know how that ignorant Tender voted'
lol

ive never anywhere said i have a problem with democrats.
i have a problem killing an unborn child. that makes me evil?
gay issues 'in particular' is a major discussion around here, i also talk about a thousand other things from day to day, but on THIS board, that is the topic often. I have every right to voice my opinion on it, as do you. I beleive the bible says very clearly that it is wrong. If you don't--that is your responsibility, not mine.
i also have nothing against 'gay people'.
i have family members that are gay.
I never said i hated them, or anything of the sort.
im not scared of them.
i dont beleive that if i touch one while in line at walmart that i might catach 'it'.

If we assumed everyone everywhere approved of gay marriage, then it wouldnt be controversial would it? and this poll wouldnt have been here... :

maybe this poll was a set up to harass those that dont conform? ah, thats it!! a republican, breeders, Christian, right radical TRAP!
I should report this to Washington, cause chances are, you are smart enough to know where they are hiding the WMD!

Tender

 

[jonb]

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if.html

Th-th-th-that's all, folks!