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- 80% Gay, 20% Straight
*ignores mister y's post*
i have come across a study (maybe the same one dentrilite mentions?) that should VERY small differences in size, with gay men VERY sligthly longer (like quarter inch) and str8 men VERY slightly thicker (like quarter inch).... so both are bigger!!!
Hmmm, guess bi guys win... again. Why do they have all the fun?!?!?!![]()
Gay men don't have bigger dicks. Its not scientificly proved or something, nor is the opposite.
It would be more logical if gay men had smaller dicks, because they are more female (their brains and their hormones) than straight men.
Novice_btm thought this would draw a lot of fire. And so did I! But I guess it's just too, too stupid to warrant more than a laugh?
Sorry Mister Y, maybe my bitchy estrogen is speaking up again. Or maybe I'm acting out because of penis-envy, since I'm really not endowed at all. Or maybe my daddy didn't love me. Or maybe my daddy loved me "down there." Or maybe my mommy was too smothering. Or maybe it was my mommy who loved me "down there." (I've likely repressed it, so coulda been anyone!) And you should remember that I'm terrible at logical thinking thanks to my female "brain." Tho damned emothional, you know. Oh woe to the pathologies in my development, the faulty wiring in my brain!
I wont even touch on the penis size portion.....but there have been studies that have shown male brains have similar metabolic profiles upon stimulation to female brains.....It's not fault wiring, just variation.....neuroscience is fascinating
Haha, don't interpret my post wrong! I didn't say they are smaller but it would be more logical because their brains and hormones are more female-like than straight. Thats not an assumption but a fact. Just like people with a lot of fat. Fat contains female-hormones so when you are fat when you're young, the change is bigger that you have a smaller dick.
I wont even touch on the penis size portion.....but there have been studies that have shown homosexual male brains have similar metabolic profiles upon stimulation to female brains.....It's not fault wiring, just variation.....neuroscience is fascinating
There has been ONE study, by Simon LeVay, and it has been discredited:
"In 1991 LeVay made news by claiming to have discovered that homosexual and heterosexual men have a difference in size in the third interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus. Some criticized the work as science by press conference, and critics have pointed out a number of concerns about the methodology, including sample size and measurement methods. LeVay has also been heavily criticised for his homosexual research sample being entirely composed of gay men whom had died of AIDS related diseases. This study has not been consistently replicated, and no consitent difference betweenthe brains of hetero- and homosexuals has been discovered. (Pinel, 2006)"
Just because you "heard of a study" doesn't mean that study met all the criteria for being accepted as fact (or even theory) in the scientific community. You, of all "People" should know that baseball99.
Note your study was talking about size differences in brains.....im talking about metabolic profiles (lighting up on functional MRI's on LIVE people). I just ran a quick search on the subject through a journal search program (NOT GOOGLE WHICH IS CRAP FOR RESEARCH).....and 309 hits came up and probably close to 100 are relevant.....no significant brain structure has been noted, but it has been noted different neuronal tracts and size of brain nuclei (which are all microscopic structures)
btw i find your tone rude
My tone isn't intended to be rude, it is reflective of dissapointment in someone i once respected for his scientific background. I used to admire that you would take the time to post scientifically backed evidence on the subjects you chose to address.
Now... the best you can do is say "i have information you aren't privvy to." Well... forgive me for not trusting information i can't see.
And by the way, all of the studies i'm reading about metabolic differences in gay men on my OWN journal search engine (which i will happily share is Entrez PubMed www.pubmed.com), referenced either men with advanced HIV/AIDS or fail to mention how they attained their samples.
... 309 hits came up and probably close to 100 are relevant.....no significant brain structure has been noted, but it has been noted different neuronal tracts and size of brain nuclei (which are all microscopic structures)
Quite a vague response, but it does show that you were unable to prove that at a microscopic level one is able to tell the difference between a male "straight" brain and a "gay" brain. Nor would I expect to be able to determine an individual's sexuality from his "metabolic profile."
Well done JBT.
btw i find your tone rude
Ive gotten tired of constantly providing sources and information and having people just ignore it and post their biased opinions anyways. My scientific background is still here but it gets annoying constantly having to back everything up (especially when it was backed up a few posts before)..... also on a personal note, recent developments/disagreement with another poster have kind of caused me to become irritated with you
It wasnt a vague response, you just didnt understand it. .... Now, discuss amongst yourselves
I wont even touch on the penis size portion.....but there have been studies that have shown homosexual male brains have similar metabolic profiles upon stimulation to female brains.....It's not fault wiring, just variation.....neuroscience is fascinating
Note your study was talking about size differences in brains.....im talking about metabolic profiles (lighting up on functional MRI's on LIVE people).
None of the three studies you cited say anything about this. JBT was writing about a similar study to what you are describing that has subsequently been debunked. Remember, PET scans do not determine anything about structure.no significant brain structure has been noted, but it has been noted different neuronal tracts and size of brain nuclei (which are all microscopic structures)
It wasnt a vague response, you just didnt understand it. I didnt say you could look at a microscopic level and see differences. I said the differences are microscopic in nature, meaning on gross study of the brain you will not see a difference.
PET scan, not fMRIs, show this activity. In general, the two need to be used together as an fMRI shows structure and the PET scan shows activity (the "lighting up"). Again, this is not a metabolic profile because it shows nothing about the chemical reactions, only the level of blood flow and where this is happening. The actual chemical metabolism is likely to be the same, only activated at different times or in different areas upon stimulation.You are also misinterpreting metabolic profile. I dont mean you can take a lab test and measure the gay protein.....thats not what i was saying. What I meant was under specific stimulation different areas of a homosexual male's brain has a different metabolic response to a heterosexual, on functional MRI this is shown by "lighting up" in different colors.
Not really. All the studies show is the variance in blood flow upon stimulation. I'm not arguing that something makes gay men different from straight men (and women), just that these studies don't really suggest any difference chemically or structurally, just a difference in what is stimulating to gay men versus straight men. The chemical metabolism in the brain is most likely exactly the same, it is just activated by different stimuli. For there to be a difference in metabolism of any sort, there must be fundamental differences in how the gay brain changes and uses chemicals within the brain. None of the studies you cite come anywhere near to suggesting this. Such metabolic differences may exist somewhere, but there is no evidence of it so far within the scientific community.The confusion comes in bc no two brains are the same and variation in brains makes it very difficult to trace.....Neuronal tracts, nuclei, gyri, etc grossly will look the same, but on microscopic metabolic examination they prove different.
I was not even going to respond to you in this thread at all, but making this statement that is blatantly about me to my housemate is a really crappy, juvenile, troll-like thing to do. I asked you leave me alone and put you on ignore only to hear that you are trying to get to me through someone else on the board? Lame.also on a personal note, recent developments/disagreement with another poster have kind of caused me to become irritated with you.
Hey Baseball, thanks for the posts. I know there have been a lot of studies on pheromone responses, but I've never looked at the articles before. Anyways, I'm just sayin' something obvious -- that it's hasty to argue from them that gay men are "like women" in any way other than, oh... their response to pheromones! This started out, after all, with the idea that it would be logical for gay men to have smaller penises because they are "like women."I wont even touch on the penis size portion.....but there have been studies that have shown homosexual male brains have similar metabolic profiles upon stimulation to female brains.....It's not fault wiring, just variation.....neuroscience is fascinating
"gay men are more female re: their brains and their hormones than straight men."
So, more interestingly, let's hear about you and the military lug. :tongue:I didn't mean to start a debate. Everyone friends again?
It was just a remark made to me but a big lug of a military guy that caught me off guard.
Jake
you can argue metabolic profile on semantics but it really doenst matter for the point of this threadThis is an oversimplification of the studies you present later in this thread. A PET scan, which is what is used for these studies, shows only one thing-- increased blood flow to certain areas of the brain. In the studies, when a gay man is subjected to sexual stimuli that are associated with men, they react the same way to that stimuli as a woman who is also attracted to men. I argue the term "metabolic profile" only because the area in the hypothalamus where we are seeing increased blood flow only indicates one area in the brain where we can see a causal relationship between stimulation and brain activity. We really don't know anything else, including the existence of metabolic differences (or other things) that are responsible for this increase in blood flow. All this tells us is there is increased activity in the hypothalamus when a subject is given pheromones of the sex they prefer. This in no way proves that the brains are structurally or chemically different, it just shows there is activity in this area of the brain when exposed to sex pheromones of the sex that is preferred. All this suggests is that gay men are stimulated by male pheromones just as straight females are. It doesn't mean their brains are any more "female" than another man's would be, which is where this thread seems to be headed.
Sexuality is quite more complex than preference for food. Sexuality is influenced by brain structure, whether or not you want to acknowledge that. Think about Kluver-Bucy syndrome if you dont think so. Think about how communication and speech are affected by brain structure. Your argument is an "oversimplification" of a moot pointI am sure there would be similar, if not the same, findings if you gave a PET scan to a set of subjects that like peas while hungry and in the presence of a bowl of peas as well as a set of subjects that hates peas and is also hungry. This study does would not prove or even suggest chemical or structural differences in pea-lovers or pea-haters.
Gay mens brain react differently to certain stimuli than straight men and similiar to women. Make your own conclusions. There is clearly a differenceMy point is, none of this suggests that we know how, overall, a gay male brain is different from a straight male brain. We just intuit that there probably is some sort of difference, though I doubt it would be the same for each gay man.
I will give you credit for the PET scan thing. I wasnt cross-referencing articles for use of fMRI and brain structure and yes many studies have used PET scans but many use fMRI's now based on the better visualization and less exposure risk for contrast and radiationThe studies you cite are not fMRIs or MRIs, they are PET scans, which show levels of blood flow to certain regions of the brain. This is not a metabolic profile. A metabolic profile would have to study specifically changes in chemical composition, which PET scans are unable to do.
I should have been more clear "has been noted" in other studies, research and is what is understood in the medical community. Sorry for the confusionNone of the three studies you cited say anything about this. JBT was writing about a similar study to what you are describing that has subsequently been debunked. Remember, PET scans do not determine anything about structure.
Actually, I do have extensive time in a neuroscience lab. Despite currently working on a PhD in neuroanatomy (which i hope to be able to finish within 10 years bc of my inability to devote countless hours at the current time), neuroanatomy research has pretty much been a job for me since i was 17. Remember what people say about "assuming"I don't think you understand this as well as you may want to. Remember when you spanked me for not having clinical medical experience? Well, you don't have experience in a neuroscience lab, I do. I worked in one doing research as an undergraduate.
PET scan, not fMRIs, show this activity. In general, the two need to be used together as an fMRI shows structure and the PET scan shows activity (the "lighting up"). Again, this is not a metabolic profile because it shows nothing about the chemical reactions, only the level of blood flow and where this is happening. The actual chemical metabolism is likely to be the same, only activated at different times or in different areas upon stimulation.
I think you are misunderstanding when i saw chemical metabolism and whatever. Any part of the brain when metabolically stimulated can basically be viewed. If I yell at you different parts of your brain will become active and this can be seen metabolically. You are way overreading the point. When a gay man's brain is stimulated with a particular scent it react in a more SIMILAR metabolic profile to a woman's brain than a straight mans brain. The studies do show that.Not really. All the studies show is the variance in blood flow upon stimulation. I'm not arguing that something makes gay men different from straight men (and women), just that these studies don't really suggest any difference chemically or structurally, just a difference in what is stimulating to gay men versus straight men. The chemical metabolism in the brain is most likely exactly the same, it is just activated by different stimuli. For there to be a difference in metabolism of any sort, there must be fundamental differences in how the gay brain changes and uses chemicals within the brain. None of the studies you cite come anywhere near to suggesting this. Such metabolic differences may exist somewhere, but there is no evidence of it so far within the scientific community.