First of all, being a gay man (and black and poor, a minority within a minority within a minority) I hold NO BIASES against ANY minority group. I love gay men, I love white men, I love asian women (as friends :wink, everybody equally but as you know is my style, I'm not afraid to speak in vein of the in the necessary introspection REQUIRED for any group to progress. Every group (men, women, black, white, old young, etc...) has its fair share of wackos and weirdos but THIS SPECIFIC thread is focusing on one group: gay men. If you casually glance through the forum you'll find countless threads about behaviors such as getting straight guys drunk and "fooling around" with them (which may or may not be harmless, varies from case to case), "accidentally" touching men's genitilia on crowded buses, fondling/sucking other men's genitilia while they sleep (regardless of sexual orientation) and all kinds of behavior that I believe, if dont between a man and a woman, would warrant sexual abuse (because the participant is either taking advantage of someone in an inebriated state, or someone who is not aware or able to consent the act being done to them IE sleeping). Here's my question, why is it that certain behaviors that none can deny would be labeled abusive towards women, are okay when the "victim" is a man? How would you feel if your sister spent the night at a friend's house, and a guy in the house put his hands up her shirt while she slept and fondled her breast? How would you feel if your mother went to a cocktail party and in the morning your reading a post from someone at the party who got her drunk and had a romp in the bathroom. How would YOU feel if you're in public and some complete stranger decides that it's okay to "accidently" brush up against your genitilia? Maybe the general notion is one of "it's a man, men can't be victims", I don't know. What I do now is that after reading this site I'm going to be very conscious when I have children who spend the night at "friend's" houses, when I'm on a crowded bus, and might even need to install a night-vision camera when I'm sleeping. I feel like certain gay men are so focused on their own pleasures (I'll be honest there are sometimes few when family outcasts you, your country denies you civil rights, and you're told to "move to another seat you damn queer" on a city bus). The gay men I'm talking about (which don't represent all) are so focused on their own pleasure that since THEY enjoy the experience, it's justifiable, especially if the other person isn't aware. Once again, this isn't a witch-hunt, all gay men are NOT perverts, but in my homestate of North Carolina, there are almost 10,000 registered sex offenders so to ignore the perversion of humanity would be blind. Maybe what I'm asking is that, in reference to two men and sexual behavior, where do you draw the line? When does "experimentation" or "boys being boys" turn into sexual abuse? In my opinion, if an otherwise straight guy gets drunk and let's someone suck his dick, so be it. But me personally I would, in the back of my mind, wonder if he'd regret this in the morning, the same way heterosexual partners sometimes wake up the day after and go "geez, I went too far last night". As beautiful and wonderful as sex is, there are certainly cases that seem more predatory than loving, less attraction and more manipulative. Me personally, I think that if someone HAS to be drunk to enjoy a certain encounter, it's definitely worth contemplating if you really want to be involved (if a lessened state of inhibition is required to have sex with me, maybe you're not really attracted to me). This DOES go both ways. With so much stigma against homosexuality, I realize that some people "need" to be drunk to engage in this behavior because society and religious extremists paint the picture of this being an immoral, damnable act. Anyhow, I know this is long and, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter -Are there different guidelines for sexual abuse in context to man vs. woman and man vs. man (or woman vs. woman for that matter) -How acceptable and how damaging can it be to engage in sexual activity in a state of inebriation -Does "I'm not hurting anyboy" justify any sexual experience? CROTCH-CAM 'TRAINED' ON GUYS - New York Post Here's the article that put these heavy thoughts in my mind at 10 o'clock in the morning. About a man who was caught filming the crotches and "bulges" of other men in public, often or always unbeknownst to them. This case is NOT isolated, do google searches for "sleeping men, drunk straight guys, public groping, etc.." and you'll find that there are actual markets in porn based solely on fondling men (and women) in their sleep, hidden cameras that capture men and women's genetilia in public and in more private locations (locker rooms, bathrooms, etc..). Certainly many of this is staged but there are real-life candid vids of all of the examples disposable at the click of a mouse. Has the sexual revolution come at the expense of courtesy? Is it now okay to sexualize someone who is not at all aware of what's being done to them? PS-Again, everybody has perverts, I'm focusing on gay men in context of the article, and my belief that several threads on this forum contain stories and fantasies of man-on-man action that, if committed between man-and-woman would be considered sexual abuse. PLEASE only opinions, no personal attacks, no name-calling, let's hold a DISCUSSION not an argument.