Gay re-orientation

[DC_DEEP]

...The line between what's ok and what's not is a moving target that seems pretty arbitrarily drawn from where I sit.

And where you sit seems a comfortable place. You do not have the info listed, but I'm guessing that you are a heterosexual male. Until you have groups like this invasively trying to convert hets to homos, and pressure from "the church" and society to force you into that mold, your seat will be pretty cushy. Keep sitting.

 

[D_Sheffield Thongbynder]

Don't anybody knock themselves over patting themselves and each other on the back.

You choose to find find comfort in your beliefs. Others do the same.

The line between what's ok and what's not is a moving target that seems pretty arbitrarily drawn from where I sit.

​

Finding comfort in beliefs isn't the same as foisting them on others. If homosexuality were the "accepted" credo of the church, how would you like to be conditioned to rid yourself of those sinful heteroseuxal urges?

 

[Ethyl]

There are a few key problems with conversion and they are all underlying:

• Conversion assumes that one orientation is superior/right/valid and the other(s) are not.

• Conversion ignores what we know of the statistical bell curve, which says that most people, as Freddie noted, are in the middle and are neither 100% gay or 100% straight. The total presence and/or absence of a thing (in this case same or opposite-sex attraction) exists at either tail of the bell curve. Hence 100% gay and 100% straight are at either end, not in the middle.

• Conversion assumes that one can not be happy unless you are "straight." These assumptions lead to more self-hatred, repression, and depression from social heterosexism which, combined, are the last things that men and women struggling to accept their true selves need thrown on them.

All in the name of God. UGH.

That much I know from reading and talking with other "Christians" who espouse conversion. I'd like to discuss with a few Christian counselors how they'd handle a situation where gender reassignment surgery has taken place. They couldn't seriously suggest someone who say, changed from a woman to a man change their sexual preference to match a "straight" profile, would they?

 

[stud_hunter]

About a year ago I read a great article on the issue. I wish I remembered where I saw it but I don't. But basically it focused on studies of sexuality in the animal kingdom, and also demographic patterns among gay people. I remember it said they found that about 5-10% are gay. They also found that between 30-50% of gay women were victims of sexual abuse by men as a child. Also very surprising was the fact that 10-20% of gay men were sexually abused by women as a child. This is striking because sexual abuse by women is pretty rare.
A big issue of discussion always seems to be whether gays can change or not. Personally my feelings are most gay people were just born gay and are always going to be gay no matter what. So be happy with it! I also think there are some gay people, especially gay women, who weren't born gay but who suffered sexual abuse which warped their whole sense of sexuality to the point where they weren't comfortable with the opposite sex. I'd have to think those people could be helped in therapy. Overall I think most gays were just born like that and I doubt that could be changed through therapy. But I also don't think the numbers are quite as equal as some have said. I really doubt it's 10%-80%-10% in terms of naturally straight-bisexual-gay. Culture isn't the only reason most people are straight. There's a lot of evolutionary pressure too.

 

[Lex]

... But I also don't think the numbers are quite as equal as some have said. I really doubt it's 10%-80%-10% in terms of naturally straight-bisexual-gay. Culture isn't the only reason most people are straight. There's a lot of evolutionary pressure too.

Keep in mind that, in a lot of studies, orientation is self-reported (like abuse, alcoholism, income, etc.). This usually leads to withholding the truth, even in sitatuions where anonmynity is assured.

For example, male victims of sexual abuse traditionally under-report given the stigma of being sexually assualted (being seen as weak, etc.) and being male (strong, invincible, etc.).

I am sure if we could read people's minds and hearts, the numbers would more closely approximate reality.

Also, as far as the bell curve, think of the shades of grey there:

What is the difference between 100% gay and 80% gay? Not Much.

What is the difference between 100% straight and 80% straight? Not much.

What is the difference between 80% gay and 80% straight? Miles.


Replace those percentages with IQs and you will get it, I think:
What is the difference between an IQ of 100 and 85 ? Not Much.

What is the difference between an IQ of 45 and 65 ? Not Much.

What is the difference between and IQ of 140 and 150 ? Not much.

What is the difference between and IQ of 45 and 120? Miles.

 

[Shelby]

The catholic group is called courage, the protestant group is called exodus, and there may be some secular groups but I don't know.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess there isn't an Islamic version.

 

[regularguy]

Never thought of an Islamic version. Gosh, could you imagine how they'd handle this issue? I don't even want to think about it.

Eh, well everyone, believe it or not, the reason I asked this question was because I went to the re-orientation counseling many years ago.

I'm still attracted to men and not to women. But I must say they were actually very nice people and they didn't hurt me. Nobody was shamed or made to feel bad about themselves. Although I know there are plenty of groups that are mean to us gays, I did not experience this.

A lot of it was actually kind of nice and helpful. It was their philosophy that if I figured out how my family dynamics worked and where I was emotionally wounded, and if I got healing for this, that the straightness would happen naturally. So overall, I do think that I became a healthier person as a result of the counseling. I just didn't become a straighter person.

It was a lot better than what could've happened. I heard that many years ago, back when homosexuality was considered a sickness by the medical community, some people actually tried testicle transplants. UGH!

By the way, Madame Zora, very nice research. I particularly liked your Molech link.

 

[stud_hunter]

Never thought of an Islamic version. Gosh, could you imagine how they'd handle this issue? I don't even want to think about it.

Ugh. I read there was a young couple in Egypt who just got married and were having sex for the first time. Afterwards the young man announced that the woman had not been a virgin, because she didn't bleed. With the support of the groom's family, the bride's family murdered her because she'd brought disgrace to the family by not being a virgin on her wedding night. Then the truth came out. The groom had been embarrased because he couldn't get it up, so he made up the story about her not being a virgin. There was no consequence for him or the families. She was still dead. As far as I'm concerned the whole Islamic world can rot in hell with the way they treat women. I'd imagine they're just as backwards about gays.

 

[Ethyl]

Ugh. I read there was a young couple in Egypt who just got married and were having sex for the first time. Afterwards the young man announced that the woman had not been a virgin, because she didn't bleed. With the support of the groom's family, the bride's family murdered her because she'd brought disgrace to the family by not being a virgin on her wedding night. Then the truth came out. The groom had been embarrased because he couldn't get it up, so he made up the story about her not being a virgin. There was no consequence for him or the families. She was still dead. As far as I'm concerned the whole Islamic world can rot in hell with the way they treat women. I'd imagine they're just as backwards about gays.

Was this a recent story? Where did you read this? Just curious.

 

[stud_hunter]

Was this a recent story? Where did you read this? Just curious.

Actually, I remember quite clearly. It was a week or two after 9/11, and it was in the LA Times. It never really explained how they discovered the guy hadn't been able to get it up. Either way, it makes me sick thinking about how they treat women over there. Forced circumcision, marital slavery, no rights. Ugh.

 

[Ethyl]

Actually, I remember quite clearly. It was a week or two after 9/11, and it was in the LA Times. It never really explained how they discovered the guy hadn't been able to get it up. Either way, it makes me sick thinking about how they treat women over there. Forced circumcision, marital slavery, no rights. Ugh.

Makes me want to uproot and move there. Thank you for the info. Hopefully I can search through their archives without paying for it.

 

[stud_hunter]

Was this a recent story? Where did you read this? Just curious.

Oh, and the other thing is I don't think the story was unusual at all. Apparently it's common for a man to accuse his wife of adultery to get rid of her. In traditional Muslim countries divorce is not allowed except in cases of adultery or if the man can't support her. To get around that, if the guy doesn't want her anymore he can just accuse her of adultery. She doesn't get a defense. She's assumed guilty, executed, and it's a nice clean break for him. I would provide a link to such a case here, but stories of this stuff are all over the internet so anyone can verify it. There was one case reported on BBC where the woman wanted a divorce because the husband couldnt' support her. He got mad, accused her of adultery, and she was stoned to death. That was on BBC last year so I'm guessing it's a reliable story.

 

[Ethyl]

Oh, and the other thing is I don't think the story was unusual at all. Apparently it's common for a man to accuse his wife of adultery to get rid of her. In traditional Muslim countries divorce is not allowed except in cases of adultery or if the man can't support her. To get around that, if the guy doesn't want her anymore he can just accuse her of adultery. She doesn't get a defense. She's assumed guilty, executed, and it's a nice clean break for him. I would provide a link to such a case here, but stories of this stuff are all over the internet so anyone can verify it. There was one case reported on BBC where the woman wanted a divorce because the husband couldnt' support her. He got mad, accused her of adultery, and she was stoned to death. That was on BBC last year so I'm guessing it's a reliable story.

I'll check BBC archives, too. Thanks again.

 

[stud_hunter]

I'll check BBC archives, too. Thanks again.

Here's the BBC link. Their summary is pretty minimal, but I read elsewhere that the woman was not allowed a defense at her trial, and that they never identified who whe allegedly committed adultery with. It was clearly the guy's way to get rid of her.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4477003.stm

 

[jfrsndvs]

you might try the your local library, the library here keeps back issues for ages.

Makes me want to uproot and move there. Thank you for the info. Hopefully I can search through their archives without paying for it.

 

[dong20]

Oh, and the other thing is I don't think the story was unusual at all. Apparently it's common for a man to accuse his wife of adultery to get rid of her. In traditional Muslim countries divorce is not allowed except in cases of adultery or if the man can't support her. To get around that, if the guy doesn't want her anymore he can just accuse her of adultery. She doesn't get a defense. She's assumed guilty, executed, and it's a nice clean break for him. I would provide a link to such a case here, but stories of this stuff are all over the internet so anyone can verify it. There was one case reported on BBC where the woman wanted a divorce because the husband couldnt' support her. He got mad, accused her of adultery, and she was stoned to death. That was on BBC last year so I'm guessing it's a reliable story.

You may find this of Interest: Human rights in Egypt

To you and me such things are fundemental wrongs. But it's all too easy for us in the west to paint the Middle east for example whatever shade of evil suits us or our current agenda. The region has many problems, not least of which is it's portrayal in the western media. Over the centuries our 'civilised' nations have perpetrated wrongs that make the worst excesses of Islam for example, seem like schooboy fisticuffs. Honour killings are not restricted to the Middle east they happen far closer to home.

Wow, that sounds like a rant, but it's not meant to be.:smile:

 

[Ethyl]

Here's the BBC link. Their summary is pretty minimal, but I read elsewhere that the woman was not allowed a defense at her trial, and that they never identified who whe allegedly committed adultery with. It was clearly the guy's way to get rid of her.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4477003.stm

"During the Taleban's rule, women were regularly stoned to death for adultery."

No surprise there. I wonder how many Islamic men are closeted homosexuals?

 

[stud_hunter]

"During the Taleban's rule, women were regularly stoned to death for adultery."

No surprise there. I wonder how many Islamic men are closeted homosexuals?

Probably more than a few. If I were gay in those countries I'd stay in the closet too.
Here's a link describing the process of stoning that they use. This link is in relation to a very recent stoning of a woman in Iran.

http://www.petitiononline.com/Malak/petition.html

 

[Matthew]

Just in case anyone was trying to imply that because things are worse for gays in Islamic countries, we should be happy with what we have here ... LOL. Fuck that noise.

 

[Ethyl]

You may find this of Interest: Human rights in Egypt

To you and me such things are fundemental wrongs. But it's all too easy for us in the west to paint the Middle east for example whatever shade of evil suits us or our current agenda. The region has many problems, not least of which is it's portrayal in the western media. Over the centuries our 'civilised' nations have perpetrated wrongs that make the worst excesses of Islam for example, seem like schooboy fisticuffs. Honour killings are not restricted to the Middle east they happen far closer to home.

Wow, that sounds like a rant, but it's not meant to be.:smile:

Well, that answered my question about tolerance for homosexuality. Thank you, d20.

Heartbreaking to read about the treatment of street children although I realise this nation treated children similarly not long ago.