Gay re-orientation

stud_hunter

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Matthew said:
Just in case anyone was trying to imply that because things are worse for gays in Islamic countries, we should be happy with what we have here ... LOL. Fuck that noise.

Happy yes, satisfied no.
 

Ethyl

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Matthew said:
Just in case anyone was trying to imply that because things are worse for gays in Islamic countries, we should be happy with what we have here ... LOL. Fuck that noise.

That would not be me. Comparing the degrees of atrocities around the world should give us the resolve to push ahead, not fall back into complacency.
 

SomeGuyOverThere

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madame_zora said:
This is some seriously funny stuff. Someguy, I actually pulled out my Bible and read that passage, but the whole thing is a hoot:

[...]

Thanks for posting that, someguy, it's good to discover where these half-truths come from.
If I'd been slightly more awake, I'd have found and referenced the bit where God commands his followers to put to death any followers of other gods they meet, and go to the town from where they came, kill everyone, put all their belongings in the middle of the town and burn them, and the town must never be lived in again.

Here it is, in lego format:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/religious_tolerance/dt13_13-15.html

The entire Law Section is a good read.

And yes, I cheated - I got those quotes from the Brick Testement... its much more fun than the original!
 

stud_hunter

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Matthew said:
Matthew Shepard's happy.

I only meant that we should all appreciate what we have. That doesn't mean we can't strive to make things better. I appreciate that I don't live in Iran, that doesn't mean I think there's no discrimination against women here.
 

Ethyl

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Matthew said:
Matthew Shepard's happy.

The difference, however small, is that we're still talking about that case today. His death would have been just another day in Islamic countries with no second thoughts. His death is a tragedy in more ways than one since it illustrates how far we still have to go as far as acceptance is concerned. Again, moving forward rather than complacency.
 

Matthew

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Yeah, it was probably a mistake to focus on that one example. It was so high-profile that it gives the impression that it was exceptional. But men and women are murdered reguarly and often in the US for being queer. Not all their names make the front page, even in the communities where they live.

The diversion of this thread into criticism of Islam is a pretty common tactic for those who take exception to criticism of the US/Christianity in general. I think that was Shelby's motivation, at least. And I am well aware that it's worse in many other countries, just as I'm aware it's better in a few. But the idea that gays in the US should be "happy" about the state of things here strikes me as patronizing.
 

Ethyl

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Matthew said:
Yeah, it was probably a mistake to focus on that one example. It was so high-profile that it gives the impression that it was exceptional. But men and women are murdered reguarly and often in the US for being queer. Not all their names make the front page, even in the communities where they live.

The diversion of this thread into criticism of Islam is a pretty common tactic for those who take exception to criticism of the US/Christianity in general. I think that was Shelby's motivation, at least. And I am well aware that it's worse in many other countries, just as I'm aware it's better in a few. But the idea that gays in the US should be "happy" about the state of things here strikes me as patronizing.

I disagree with your first statement. I think it gave the exact opposite impression. It would have been exceptional had it occurred in San Francisco's high society circles. The fact that he was from a rural area points to a higher volume of hate crimes than we originally thought.
 

Lex

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Matthew said:
...
The diversion of this thread into criticism of Islam is a pretty common tactic for those who take exception to criticism of the US/Christianity in general. I think that was Shelby's motivation, at least. And I am well aware that it's worse in many other countries, just as I'm aware it's better in a few. But the idea that gays in the US should be "happy" about the state of things here strikes me as patronizing.

You can't let Shelby get to you, Hon. He's white, straight and Christian with a big dick. As far as Americans go, he's got it fucking made. He knows this a revels in it--smearing his priviilege in our faces in his trollish taunts.

Now if he could only get rid of us negroes, fags and empowered women, he and the rest of his pack could have the planet all to themselves.

And what a boring place that would be.

Oh, right--according to Shleby--I just aggravate the problem be point it out. And predators/abusers are empowered by silence, too. Go figure.
 

Spoogesicle

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GoneA said:
I love how the Catholic groups call themselves "courage" ... what correlation are they trying to make exactly?

The Catholic organization that encourages gay Catholics to accept and embrace their sexuality has a positive name. That group is called Dignity.
 

ledroit

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regularguy said:
What do you all think about all the gay re-orientation that's going on?
"all"?? Are there millions?

If you are bisexual, you have a choice. But you don't have a choice about being bisexual. "Sexual orientation" is defined as that innate ability we have that can't be changed. Period. You can change a preference, since it's optional. You can't change the fundamental wiring you have that gets your heart pumping when you see somebody hot. It occurs on a pre-conscious, pre-thematic, pre-volitional, pre-personal level. However, you can repress it, and learn to like what you do not like. You can learn to truly fuck yourself up.

These claims aren't religious. If something is not real, it can't be sacred. Faith and reason both have to be oriented toward reality to be healthy. Fantasies can't be religious if you can prove they are not based in or oriented toward reality. They're just lies on a large scale.
 

GoneA

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Spoogesicle said:
The Catholic organization that encourages gay Catholics to accept and embrace their sexuality has a positive name. That group is called Dignity.

I was actually going to make a comment about that as this thread progressed; however, I wanted to be sure my knowledge on the subject was adequate. Google is helpful, but I wanted a more exhaustive search. The existence of this organization shows the great strides that we've made as a people, yet it also highlights how far we have to go. That is, because there is a place of acceptance means that there must be a place of rejection - that, after all, is the real tragedy here.

To that end, it's organizations like Dignity (using bold is contagious) that make it important for us not to generalize about the church's stand on sexuality. While these types of associations might not be in majority, they exist nonetheless and they offer us a glimmer of hope in the night.
 

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GoneA said:
I was actually going to make a comment about that as this thread progressed; however, I wanted to be sure my knowledge on the subject was adequate. Google is helpful, but I wanted a more exhaustive search. The existence of this organization shows the great strides that we've made as a people, yet it also highlights how far we have to go. That is, because there is a place of acceptance means that there must be a place of rejection - that, after all, is the real tragedy here.

To that end, it's organizations like Dignity (using bold is contagious) that make it important for us not to generalize about the church's stand on sexuality. While these types of associations might not be in majority, they exist nonetheless and they offer us a glimmer of hope in the night.

I have a friend who's gay and a lutheran minister who has ties to Dignity via other evangelical Catholic friends. He has nothing but good things to say about it and it's helped him come to terms with his sexual orientation and beliefs.
 

Freddie53

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I've often wondered about children born with both genitalia. A decision is usually made to select a gender while the child is an infant. Often later in life the person believes that the wrong gender was selected. Let's suppose that the decision was made to make the child male. Later, the child now an adult wants to be a woman and says the parents and doctors made a mistake.

In the meantime, this now adult is attractdd to males. So is the adult male gay or straight. After the surgery to make the adult a woman, is the adult now striaght?

And what is the position of the fundie churches (of which I most assuredly am not a member)?

And if the adult male here can't afford surgery to revere the gender is it according to the church a sin for him to be attracted to otehr males since he should have been made female at birth?
 

hypolimnas

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And what is the position of the fundie churches (of which I most assuredly am not a member)?

The problem with the simple answers, which suit many people, is that they do not take account of individual lives as they are lived. Yes, the net can be about becoming increasingly narrow, less human, and more judgemental. But I think the net, as a vehicle for these questions, can be about becoming more human, and more compassionate.

To me the life journey is to about becoming more human, and more compassionate. My parents were bisexual. Yes, I had a period of beating up a couple of guys who came on to me, and yes I am not proud of it. I came out at school. I have been loved and supported by my family, and friends, many are decent compassionate Christians.

What does it mean to be Christian? Perhaps to follow in the footsteps of Christ. Did Jesus bring peace of mind to those who suffered? Yes. Did he inspire compassion, and love between men? Yes. Do fundamentalists stand up publicly with gay men, and say I love these men? No. Did Jesus belong to the majority? No. Did he set an example of hatred, being judgemental and promote the suffering of ordinary people? I wasn't taught about this.

I do not call myself a Christian, I was studying to become a Christian monk when my best friend at school took his own life, and I have found solace in the teachings of Tibetan Buddhism. I am more flexible in my sexuality now, just a little.

But there are simple Christian answers, and as a special treat for you (yes I know many will say this is truly gay:wink:):

Refrain:
All things bright and beautiful, :smile:
all creatures great and small, :rolleyes:
all things wise and wonderful: :redface:
the Lord God made them all.:wink:

1. Each little flower that opens,
each little bird that sings,
God made their glowing colors,
and made their tiny wings.
(Refrain)

2. The purple-headed mountains,
the river running by,
the sunset and the morning
that brightens up the sky.
(Refrain)

3. The cold wind in the winter,
the pleasant summer sun,
the ripe fruits in the garden:
God made them every one.
(Refrain)

4. God gave us eyes to see them,
and lips that we might tell
how great is God Almighty,
who has made all things well.
(Refrain)
 

SomeGuyOverThere

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hypolimnas said:
Refrain:
All things bright and beautiful, :smile:
all creatures great and small, :rolleyes:
all things wise and wonderful: :redface:
the Lord God made them all.:wink:

1. Each little flower that opens,
each little bird that sings,
God made their glowing colors,
and made their tiny wings.
(Refrain)

2. The purple-headed mountains,
the river running by,
the sunset and the morning
that brightens up the sky.
(Refrain)

3. The cold wind in the winter,
the pleasant summer sun,
the ripe fruits in the garden:
God made them every one.
(Refrain)

4. God gave us eyes to see them,
and lips that we might tell
how great is God Almighty,
who has made all things well.
(Refrain)

If like me, you practically vomitted your guts out to that song, here is the Montey Python version, which makes a good point:

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid--
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Amen.
 

DC_DEEP

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Spoogesicle said:
The Catholic organization that encourages gay Catholics to accept and embrace their sexuality has a positive name. That group is called Dignity.
But it is important to keep in mind that Dignity is NOT a part of the Vatican's catholic church, it is an independent non-profit organization. The official church stance remains unchanged - and misguided.
 

hypolimnas

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SomeGuyOverThere said:
If like me, you practically vomitted your guts out to that song, here is the Montey Python version, which makes a good point:
SomeGuyOverThere said:
All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.

Oh yes, the version we used to sing. Much better! Thanks for the reminder.