Gay+Religion

[hottcjimmyv]

Just for the record, there are more verses of the Bible that condemn eating shelfish than homosexuality.


People manipulate scripture to justify their own prejudices... if folks who say they interpret the Bible liberally actually did so, then the story of the destruction of Sodom would be due to the Sodomites' inhospitality, not because of their alleged homosexuality (go back and read it for yourselves), but literalists don't see it this way, because they aren't really literalists, they are biggots.


God loves us all, and seeks us out, no matter what our sin (if homosexuality is a sin). We'll all be in heaven because that is how powerful and omnipotent the Creator's grace is!

unconditional love... what a mind fuck!

 

[D_CountdeGrandePinja]

How about reading - LIBERATING THE GOSPELS - by John S. Spong?

Eye-opening for all - for anyone filled with the Spirit of God.

Happy Easter.

 

[B_Nick4444]

check out this guy's post:

first of all i did not read this whole post but i have done tons of research in this area due to one of my bachelors being in anthropology. in the bible it states to go forth and populate the earth. this is not possible between two men so it is seen as a sin because it goes against the word of god. also at the time the bible was written the Jewish people we trying to spread not only religiously but quite literally in numbers. remember moses his whole plan was to build an army and take over the promised land. they were to leave no man, women child, or animal alive. they even salted lands so that no plants could grow. this type of force required lots of man power. thus these little nomadic tribes had to reproduce bunches to keep up with demand. you could even look at it a propaganda of sorts. i know this only scratches the surface of why homosexuality is seen as wrong in the bible but just by looking at the situations the people found themselves in it is clear that reproduction meant the survival of a people, their culture, and religion. thus to be gay meant you were not helping the cause.
modern day Christians read the bible and take it way to literally IMHO. it is a book of stories written by people with different perspectives on the same events then later sorted and shaped by the romans (who had their own views on this subject which are very interesting). if you read the books left out and some of the dead sea scrolls you'll find a less strict view on subjects like homosexuality and the role of women. this being said i hope no one takes offense to what i have said and i realize there is much more to the story. i just don't have the time to type a whole synopsis of the bible and homosexuality.

peace. love. unity.

 

[clear]

For starters- before I go any further –I would like to advise all who read this thread to please take some time out of your browsing to search for the previous threads on this very same issue (which I can assure you has been covered in much greater detail then I care to remember…lol). Now on to my two cents…

To all individuals of other faiths and or beliefs, what I am about to say is directed almost exclusively to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, who adamantly believe our God is incapable of doing what He said He would do, or who believes He did not mean what He said. Honestly, I am not sure what kind of schizophrenic, indecisive, irresolute, deadbeat god some Christians are serving, but the one I read about in scripture is nothing like that and is very specific and clear about what qualifies someone to be “saved”, and what does not. And I can assure you that one’s salvation is not predicated by any act of man, save his/her denial of Christ’s gift to them (which, by the way, is their right and choice to do with it whatever they want), but by what Christ did on Calvary over “2000” years ago! That’s it. Case closed.

He (Jesus the Christ) died over 2000 years ago. People, really, stop and think about that. If you have any doubts about whether or not you are saved or if any of your current actions can make you “unsaved”, just remember when Christ committed this amazing feat of selfless generosity. I repeat, “Two Thousand Years Ago”. Not two hundred, not twenty, not ten or two, but 2000. I keep on emphasizing that because that is a most important caveat. The reason of course being that; He only died once. And not for just a few of these sins over here, or few of these sins over there, but oh yeah not these over here because they are a bit too much; no, He paid the price for “ALL!” sins that one and only time. And when last I checked, “All” really did mean ALL. And if there is even one, just one sin a person could do that is not covered by that “ALL” descriptor, then Jesus the Christ would be a liar. Period. And if he lied about that, you can most certainly rest assured that He lied about everything else.

This is why we as Christians have to be very careful about the words that come out of our mouth, especially when it concerns another soul’s salvation. Christ sacrifice was more then sufficient to pay the price for- here comes that word again -ALL sins when He died that one time. He does not have come down from heaven and die again because John Doe wanted to suck a cock tonight and well Christ did not think about that one way back then, so He has to come down from the portals of heaven and cover that one too. That line of thinking is absurd and frankly very stupid. Since I am a believer- i.e. the number one and primary qualifier of being a “Christian” –I know with absolute certainty that Christ had each and every one of us “gay” people on His mind and heart when he hung His head and died. Remember that in scripture it repeatedly states that God Loves us- as in everyone -so much. In fact the most quoted Bible verse of all time makes this fact wonderfully clear. John 3:16 states that:

“For God so Loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life”.

It never read “For God so Loved Christians...” It says world. And the world is full of people who could care less about Christ. But even still, it says He Loves them too. Christ died for the world, not just a select few who meet a predetermined list of qualifications.

So to the original poster, whenever someone tries to assuage your faith by diminishing its sincerity, or the one who gifted you with salvation in the first place, remind them of John 3:16. If they try to throw scripture at you about what types of people can’t be called Christian because of this, this and that, remind them that all those scriptures refer to people outside of Christ and not to those who profess to be one of His followers. Because scripture states that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and who live according to his words (which logically implies then that it is those outside of Him that are condemned, therefore those types of scriptures have no bearing on your eternal security). This is why Christianity- in its purist and simplest form –is so remarkable and was called the “Good News”. People no longer had to jump through hoops or live as if walking on pins and needles or perform strange and elaborate rites of passage in order to be saved. They only had to believe in and accept the gift of eternal life, which is freely given to all who want it. Now how sweet is that deal?...lol.

Respectfully,

My Two Cents


Ciao-

 

[B_Nick4444]

I'd say worth well over two cents ...

nail on the head!

For starters- before I go any further –I would like to advise all who read this thread to please take some time out of your browsing to search for the previous threads on this very same issue (which I can assure you has been covered in much greater detail then I care to remember…lol). Now on to my two cents…

To all individuals of other faiths and or beliefs, what I am about to say is directed almost exclusively to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, who adamantly believe our God is incapable of doing what He said He would do, or who believes He did not mean what He said. Honestly, I am not sure what kind of schizophrenic, indecisive, irresolute, deadbeat god some Christians are serving, but the one I read about in scripture is nothing like that and is very specific and clear about what qualifies someone to be “saved”, and what does not. And I can assure you that one’s salvation is not predicated by any act of man, save his/her denial of Christ’s gift to them (which, by the way, is their right and choice to do with it whatever they want), but by what Christ did on Calvary over “2000” years ago! That’s it. Case closed.

He (Jesus the Christ) died over 2000 years ago. People, really, stop and think about that. If you have any doubts about whether or not you are saved or if any of your current actions can make you “unsaved”, just remember when Christ committed this amazing feat of selfless generosity. I repeat, “Two Thousand Years Ago”. Not two hundred, not twenty, not ten or two, but 2000. I keep on emphasizing that because that is a most important caveat. The reason of course being that; He only died once. And not for just a few of these sins over here, or few of these sins over there, but oh yeah not these over here because they are a bit too much; no, He paid the price for “ALL!” sins that one and only time. And when last I checked, “All” really did mean ALL. And if there is even one, just one sin a person could do that is not covered by that “ALL” descriptor, then Jesus the Christ would be a liar. Period. And if he lied about that, you can most certainly rest assured that He lied about everything else.

This is why we as Christians have to be very careful about the words that come out of our mouth, especially when it concerns another soul’s salvation. Christ sacrifice was more then sufficient to pay the price for- here comes that word again -ALL sins when He died that one time. He does not have come down from heaven and die again because John Doe wanted to suck a cock tonight and well Christ did not think about that one way back then, so He has to come down from the portals of heaven and cover that one too. That line of thinking is absurd and frankly very stupid. Since I am a believer- i.e. the number one and primary qualifier of being a “Christian” –I know with absolute certainty that Christ had each and every one of us “gay” people on His mind and heart when he hung His head and died. Remember that in scripture it repeatedly states that God Loves us- as in everyone -so much. In fact the most quoted Bible verse of all time makes this fact wonderfully clear. John 3:16 states that:

“For God so Loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life”.

It never read “For God so Loved Christians...” It says world. And the world is full of people who could care less about Christ. But even still, it says He Loves them too. Christ died for the world, not just a select few who meet a predetermined list of qualifications.

So to the original poster, whenever someone tries to assuage your faith by diminishing its sincerity, or the one who gifted you with salvation in the first place, remind them of John 3:16. If they try to throw scripture at you about what types of people can’t be called Christian because of this, this and that, remind them that all those scriptures refer to people outside of Christ and not to those who profess to be one of His followers. Because scripture states that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and who live according to his words (which logically implies then that it is those outside of Him that are condemned, therefore those types of scriptures have no bearing on your eternal security). This is why Christianity- in its purist and simplest form –is so remarkable and was called the “Good News”. People no longer had to jump through loops or live as if walking on pins and needles or perform strange and elaborate rites of passage in order to be saved. They only had to believe in and accept the gift of eternal life, which is freely given to all who want it. Now how sweet is that deal?...lol.

Respectfully,

My Two Cents


Ciao-

 

[clear]

Lol,

Thanks Nick!

T-

I'd say worth well over two cents ...

nail on the head!

 

[Phil Ayesho]

To all individuals of other faiths and or beliefs, what I am about to say is directed almost exclusively to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, who adamantly believe our God is incapable of doing what He said He would do, or who believes He did not mean what He said.

Your God "said" nothing.

Other folks, who never met your God, said what they claimed he said, well after he died.

The bible was written by MEN who made their living selling eternal life to the masses.


And, really, regardless of your claim, you clearly do not read scripture...
Anyone claiming the laws of leviticus were made void by Christ has not read the scritpures...

Jesus said quite specifically that the old law must be observed "every jot and letter".

What you claim to believe is, in fact, nothing but an IDEA about what you are told the bible says.

You distill the thousands of pages of scripture down to a few dozen that you read over and over... cherry picked lines of verse that manage to say something not entirely ridiculous and offensive to any modern mind.

But you have ignored the vast bulk of the written work on which you lay claim of faith to be inerrant.

The sermon on the mount is widely quoted, but what's never mentioned is when Jesus kicks his own mother out of his crew, yelling that he has naught to do with "this woman".


Contrary to your own propagandsa machine...Modern Christianity is NOT based upon the teachings of Jesus Christ.

It is entirely based upon the fevered writing of Paul of Tarsus... letters he wrote of his dreams, drunken deleria, and halluciantions...

It was Paul who effectively spread the rumor that Jesus was God. Not Jesus.
Jesus, in fact, DENIED his own divinity on two occasions; specifically asked if he was the son of God, he stated he was the son of Man.
That is a pretty strong denial.

Therefore anyone believing in the divinity of Christ is NOT believing the words of Jesus, but the words of Paul.

You are not Christians, you are Paulians.


And you believe in miracles that God was willing to perform to convince folks who would have thought a Bic Pen was miraculous... but who is unwilling to perform similarly unmistakable miracles to prove his existence to a people who are somewhat more savvy as to trickery and nature.

There is no Comsic Big Brother, surveilling your every moment.

What's more... what thinking, free adult would want to live under such a celestial despot?

 

[Gonzo3]

The "bible" was NOT first written in hebrew, nor first translated into Latin.

It was ASSEMBLED by the council of nicea which determined what would be christian teaching nearly 250 years after Jesus died. Many sources were gathered to create the 'anthology that is the bible... Some in Greek, some in Hebrew, some in Demotic, some in Aramaic.


And many many documents were voted OUT of the anthology... it went thru revisions over an 11 year period.


The hotbutton topic at the council ( which the Vatican still has the minutes of ) Was whether Jesus was in fact divine, or not... 259 years after he died and it was still not decided....
A very large contingent of "christians" argued, compellingly, that making Jesus divine would destroy his teaching... since he claimed that anything he had done, ANY man could do... which would clearly be a lie if Jesus were actually God.

Another hot button issue was that of the immacualte conception, which 90% ot today's Christians mistaken believe refers to the virgin birth of Jesus.
It does not.

It refers to the fact that Mary, being human and thus born with the stain of original sin ( in a time before baptism) would be an unfit vessel to birth God... SO they simply DECIDED that she must have been the first person on earth since Adam and Eve to be born "immaculate", that is, without the stain of original sin.

Many early Christians protested the doctrine of Immaculate conception, because it set Mary apart as "semi-Divine", and there fore set her up as an object of worship, which violates the first commandment as idolatrous.


Well, guess who carried the day?



So there you have it... the Bible was put together by a committee.

Jesus was VOTED to be divine long long after he died... and Mary was invented to be immaculate- as the result of a debate... making Chritianity no different than the polytheistic beliefs that predated it, with a host of minor semi-dieties referred to as saints.


AND, the books of the bible, copied by hand for a thousand years, are chock full of mistakes, incorrect translations and outright embellishments and lies.... as can be proven by OLDER manuscripts of the stories that are entirely different in content.

Really... Its not a magical tome... its a corporate handbook.

Look into the truth of the founding of your faith and all its majesty melts away and you see Jesus as the L Ron Hubbard of his time.


Move on... the world, today is a far better place, and has only materially improved as a RESULT of secularized governance and liberalized science.

.............................................DITTO :smile:

 

[Gonzo3]

I'd say worth well over two cents ...

nail on the head!

EMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM thats a little more than two cents worth, i would say...........peace out.....:smile:

 

[Gonzo3]

Your God "said" nothing.

Other folks, who never met your God, said what they claimed he said, well after he died.

The bible was written by MEN who made their living selling eternal life to the masses.


And, really, regardless of your claim, you clearly do not read scripture...
Anyone claiming the laws of leviticus were made void by Christ has not read the scritpures...

Jesus said quite specifically that the old law must be observed "every jot and letter".

What you claim to believe is, in fact, nothing but an IDEA about what you are told the bible says.

You distill the thousands of pages of scripture down to a few dozen that you read over and over... cherry picked lines of verse that manage to say something not entirely ridiculous and offensive to any modern mind.

But you have ignored the vast bulk of the written work on which you lay claim of faith to be inerrant.

The sermon on the mount is widely quoted, but what's never mentioned is when Jesus kicks his own mother out of his crew, yelling that he has naught to do with "this woman".


Contrary to your own propagandsa machine...Modern Christianity is NOT based upon the teachings of Jesus Christ.

It is entirely based upon the fevered writing of Paul of Tarsus... letters he wrote of his dreams, drunken deleria, and halluciantions...

It was Paul who effectively spread the rumor that Jesus was God. Not Jesus.
Jesus, in fact, DENIED his own divinity on two occasions; specifically asked if he was the son of God, he stated he was the son of Man.
That is a pretty strong denial.

Therefore anyone believing in the divinity of Christ is NOT believing the words of Jesus, but the words of Paul.

You are not Christians, you are Paulians.


And you believe in miracles that God was willing to perform to convince folks who would have thought a Bic Pen was miraculous... but who is unwilling to perform similarly unmistakable miracles to prove his existence to a people who are somewhat more savvy as to trickery and nature.

There is no Comsic Big Brother, surveilling your every moment.

What's more... what thinking, free adult would want to live under such a celestial despot?

....YOU ....have hit the nail on the head..

 

[Zweizergain]

I have a traditional christian family so Im well acquainted with all the bible tootin' gay bashers and their tactics. Being gay should in no way affect you being a christian. Even if being gay is considered a "sin"(which is debatable), in God's eyes its no better or worse than any other sin. sin is sin. If that is the religion in which you believe, then you can no more go to hell for the "sin" of being gay than you can for the sin of stealing or lying.

Theres my two cents hope it helps

or the sin of wanting to hurt someone because of said beliefs

 

[Hippie Hollow Girl]

I am not a guy but thought I would share. My favorite guy cousin who I have only known about him being gay for like the past 4 years or so......was dealing with the religious issue. He struggled and fought and almost went crazy till he came to the realization that he is gay. Today he and his partner are very active in the Episcapol church. They are very happy there.

 

[Corius]

Why not simply recognize that we are all in some degree conditioned by the faith tradition we grew up with. But if folks never subjected those traditions and the conditioning which are its byproducts there would be no change, no progress. Even the most rabid biblical literalist seem to ignore large portions of the Bible which had prohibitions and punishments which most of those who read the Bible seldom taken literally.

When you find those about you casting judgment on your sexual orientation and practice, the best thing to do would be to seek out those folks who are more tolerant. The individual person in the final analysis has to make his/her own decisions. It is far more comfortable to be among those people who view human sexuality as a gift from the Creator to be celebrated and nurtured so don't accept the straightjacket that some so-called religious persons would like to put you into.

 

[uniquelymemethinks]

Why not simply recognize that we are all in some degree conditioned by the faith tradition we grew up with. But if folks never subjected those traditions and the conditioning which are its byproducts there would be no change, no progress. Even the most rabid biblical literalist seem to ignore large portions of the Bible which had prohibitions and punishments which most of those who read the Bible seldom taken literally.

When you find those about you casting judgment on your sexual orientation and practice, the best thing to do would be to seek out those folks who are more tolerant. The individual person in the final analysis has to make his/her own decisions. It is far more comfortable to be among those people who view human sexuality as a gift from the Creator to be celebrated and nurtured so don't accept the straightjacket that some so-called religious persons would like to put you into.

amen.

 

[clear]

Hey everybody,

I just got back from an absolutely wonderful trip to Santa Barbra. For those of you who have never been, I highly recommend that you make that one of your future destinations to visit. Now back to the issue…

Phil-

It would seem that everything I said rubbed you the wrong way…lol. Personally I do not agree with a single word of what you said. Nevertheless I respect both you and your input for what they are, and hope that you continue to contribute your views to discussions like these. It is good for individuals to get as many perspectives of a given topic or issue; in order to better formulate a more informed and balanced opinion for themselves. Thanks man!

Corius-

I also wanted to say Thanks for your comments as well. In fact, you brought up another very important point (one that I hope is not lost to the original poster). And that is for him to surround himself with people of like mind, and who will continually offer reaffirming support. This is especially true now since the OP is both rediscovering and establishing his core belief values; possibly for many years to come.

Aside from that, I hope all is well with everyone.

Regards,

Ted D.

Cia0

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Clear
...Good of you to take it so well...

I would hate for my comments to be taken as mean spirited or personal in nature...

While I honestly think religion is a con, and has a lot to answer for... I completely understand why good hearted people fall for it.

I just happen to think your good heart has nothing whatsoever to do with magical daddies in the sky.

 

[deleted213967]

Clear
...Good of you to take it so well...

I would hate for my comments to be taken as mean spirited or personal in nature...

While I honestly think religion is a con, and has a lot to answer for... I completely understand why good hearted people fall for it.

I just happen to think your good heart has nothing whatsoever to do with magical daddies in the sky.

You are preaching to the choir (no pun intended).

By age 6, well before I knew what "homosexual" meant, I had my reservations about the rationality of the teachings of "The Bible".

I now know that to this day what comprises "The Bible" is still a matter of whom you ask.

I also know that countless translation errors (on key concepts such as "virgin", "hell") continue to surface.

Still, I am fascinated not so much by what "The Bible" says or does not say but by the hold it still has on billions of people in 2008.

Perhaps, like the oracle prophecies of ancient Greece (never mind the "unspeakable vice of the Greeks"), the scriptures can be interpreted to say just about anything, hence their universal power.

QED

 

[Corius]

Domisoldo, you are so right in respecting the fact that many persons do find help in their faith traditions and wish to live lives that are in harmony with those traditions. But traditions have been subject ot corruption and do seen even to cherish certain prohibitions as though they defined the whole of the tradition. Personally, I feel, as a Christian that if one is honest about things one will stick to that which is the vital heart of the tradition. I belong to a church and a faith tradition which views sexuality as a gift from the Creator which is intended for our enrichment; sexuality is to be celebrated and it is to be nurtured. Man to man bonding in a loving and committed relationship for me is harmonious with the command to love one another. I feel very sorry for those who accept the notion that such love must be sinful. Having had that experience I would ask: "How can anything so amazingly wonderful be wrong?"

We have people who claim to be leaders who seem to honor the idea that the institution of war is somehow noble. The Bible has much to say on that score which they seem to ignore. The Bible has not much to say on the subject of human sexuality much of which, as you indicate, is subject to individual interpretation. My own preference is to concentrate on loving rather than following those who preach violence whether it be war or the violence against those who love someone of the same sex and all that goes with that love.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Wrong on both counts...

Sorry, but it just irks me to hear people make claims about what the bible says when they clearly have not read it.


The bible says Sodomy is an abomination and that those doing so must be stoned. There is no place in the bible where physical Love is celebrated as good or religiously blessed.



The city of Sodom ( where we GET the word) was immolated because a group of upstanding male citizens demanded the opportunity to rape a pair of male angels staying with Lot.
Good, pious Lot tried to calm them down by offering them his daughters to rape...

God's position on sexuality is made pretty damn clear in the bible... that it is better to willingly let your daughters be raped than to allow men to screw men.


As to war...
The bible is chock full of God COMMANDING his chosen people to war, to commit genocide,... and the book of revelations makes a holy war into the necessary goal that all humanity must work toward... can't be no judgment day without armageddon...


You can cherry pick just those passages you want to believe... but if that is your strategy... if that is allowed, for you to totally ignore the bulk of scripture in favor of just those parts you like... then why consider the bible any different than ANY book?

Why even pay lip service to a book where you only heed 0.05% of the content?



Simple truth- if you believe in the bible, then homosexuality is wrong, punishable by death, and can even warrant the destruction of your entire civilization if you embrace it...

You if you believe homosexuality is NOT wrong, then you DON'T believe in the bible.

If you are trying to negate One part of the bible as false, while trying to believe in another part of the bible as true... then who the hell are you to determine which is true and false?

If any one part of the book is false... then any part might equally be false.

The authors conclusions on homosexuality is a yardstick on which to judge ALL of the author's conclusions....

Again.... ask yourself WHY you chose to pay even lip service to a "faith" that clearly hates you?

Why not simply move on and leave that 1st century hate mongering psychopathic sky daddy in the same group as Thor, Zeus, Anophis, and countless other magical sky daddies... Sky daddies you chose not to believe in?

I simply do not understand the appeal of a delusional belief system whose very tenets make you evil....

 

[Phil Ayesho]

PS-
Gay people wanting to be a part of Christianity is like Black people wanting to be in the Ku Klux Klan......