Gay tokenism

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by B_Stronzo, May 2, 2006.

  1. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    Indulge me Lex you big hunk of gorgeous manhood!:biggrin1:

    My boyfriend and I have several (actually four) heterosexual couples our own age who seek out our company regularly. It's on my mind since I was posting in the Leno thread about the mixing of hetero and straight couples.

    With two of these heterosexual couples we find ourselves very friendly socially. In fact they seek us out to dine with them, come to their dinner parties, go on their boat during the summer, and stay "down Cape" at their cottages. Most of the time I make a conscious choice not to read anything more into it than they simply like us.

    Lately though, I sense that we're a bit of a curiousity and perhaps (just perhaps) it's the basis of the friendships.

    We were at one particular couple's house for a soirée two weeks ago. The margaritas and cosmopolitans were flowing freely. As we were introduced around the group by the hostess the questions about gay marriage and how we were able to "get along" in this world bordered on the oppressive and invasive. It felt like we (I) was being grilled after a while much as the inquiring faces had the "simpatici" look of pseudo-understanding to them.

    I'm curious to know if anyone else who's involved in a commited gay relationship has experienced anything similar to this phenomenon. It's not a complaint mind you and I value (no matter what the forum) the exposure we can give to others who'd not usually have the experience of being around a gay couple.
     
  2. Lex

    Lex
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    I'll do more than indulge you, handsome.

    Here is the thing I tell all my non-black friends about racial issues (the gay thing is realtively new to me still):

    1. I'd rather you ASK me than assume about me.
    2. Understand in asking me that I do not speak for everyone and that my experiences may or may not reflect to varying degrees those of a majority of people who look like me.
    3. Understand that you may have to ask me the uncomfortable questions and that I may ask the same of you. We can't grow if we don't trust each other and value our friendship enough to do that.
    Within this context, I feel like I have had some major breakthroughs with some close friends.

    On the flip side--there are issues that I am SO intrigued by--I want to ask and ask and ask and often feel "invasive" as Stronz pointed out. My particular issue of interest is mixed-status gay male relationships (one HIV+ partner and one HIV- partner). I am often overwhlemed in the presence of the few couples I know who endeavor in this regard and I always have a million questions to ask them and I often feel silly for being so inquisitive (and they are beyond gracious to oblige me).

    It's a slippery, steep precipice--the feeling of "being on display" is never a good one, deep down, even when you know you "being displayed" is good for those around you. UGH.
     
  3. novice_btm

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    I definitely think this happens quite a bit. I'm often told, "Oh, and how about you invite that charming gay couple you know, to come along with you", when I'm invited places by a few of my friends.
     
  4. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    Lex. Thanks, great way to look at it and I'm particularly interested to see how list your provisos in that forum.

    What's weird is that we appear to be expected to posture ourselves as the perfect gay couple (make me hurl) and when I state a conservative view on something most of these individuals seem horrified that I'm not a liberal across the board.

    I guess the upside is that during one of these parties a fellow who was there with his wife of 5 years admitted "I've never told anyone this (cosmo in hand) but I have sexual feelings for men". I could read such desperation in the poor bastard's eyes. He's never been at one since so I bet he woke up that next morning thinking "FUCK! What did I admit??"

    So in that sense I suppose we're doing some good simply putting ourselves out there. I wish I enjoyed the company of more gay couples but I have a hard time stomaching the "queenie/dishing" thing that's so inevitably there during the gatherings of gay couples when exclusively so.
     
  5. Shelby

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    I feel like I'm being scrutinized when I drop by the local gay bar for a beer. Same thing when I venture into a predominantly black or hispanic neighborhood.
     
  6. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    If you look like your avatar, trust me, you are being.
     
  7. Shelby

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    I look better. lol
     
  8. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    Then you're simply being viewed as a piece of prime cut. Now deal with it.:cool:

    The only good form of objectification is when someone truly lusts after me because they're "warm for my form". I be likin' it.
     
  9. Lex

    Lex
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    It sure is hard being a straight white male in America, isn't it?

    (I really wouldn't know anything about it)

    As Chris Rock says, "None you you would trade places with me for a day--and I'm RICH!!"
     
  10. Matthew

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    Haha, it's a rough life, eh?
     
  11. Shelby

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    I forgot. Straight white males are not allowed to feel different or uncomfortable.

    How could we even find the time; being so busy sitting on our thrones counting the riches we've earned on the backs of the oppressed.
     
  12. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    Shelby my love, it's not that you 'don't'. I fear it's that often you won't.

    The only 'thrones' I see you fellas sitting on are the porcelain variety.:biggrin1:

    Not you specifically, no, unless you employ minorities and pay them insufficient wage. You don't do you? :33:
     
  13. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    Shelby my love, it's not that you 'don't'. I fear it's more often that you won't.

    The only 'thrones' I see you fellas sitting on are the porcelain variety.:biggrin1:

    Not you specifically, no, unless you employ minorities and pay them insufficient wage. You don't do you? :33:
     
  14. Lex

    Lex
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    If you feel uncomfortable at a gay bar, that has everything to do with YOU. There is not tattoo on your head that says "Hey, I don't suck dick."

    If guys are staring, then they no doubt like that they see.

    If you feel uncomfortable in the hispanic/black neighborhood--then again--you have to ask yourself why that is.

    I sure as hell don't feel uncomfortable at a biker bar or in the redneck parts of Maryland that I sometimes have to travel for business. I fine in my own skin and few places and people can make me feel otherwise.

    Your "poor me, I'm a white male and it's not fair" response to any minority story or topic of marginalization is really rather unbecoming.
     
  15. Matthew

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    I feel uncomfortable in various situations all the time.

    And that's just the beginning. For you it's the end.
     
  16. Shelby

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    I think you could replace the 'white male' above with any other descriptor and your sentence would still hold true. That being said I agree with you and intend to try to stop being such a pissant.
     
  17. Lex

    Lex
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    You're correct. It just happens to sting a little more when coming from someone who is a member of the class of individuals who go about marginalizing all the other sub-categories of people.

    As Stronzo said in the other thread--it's your underlying attitude that precludes our finding each other's POV or (in the case of Me, Matthew and Stronzo) it probably keeps us from hearing you.

    I welcome your POV when you temper it with some of the background information that keeps you from coming across as blase' as you have in the past. I appreciate your efforts in advance.
     
  18. DC_DEEP

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    I have been in situations such as you describe. I generally try to read the attitude and body language of the person asking the questions to determine how to answer. My answers usually are one of two: "The same way straight couples do" or "If I wanted you to know that much about my sex life, I would invite you into my bedroom." If you are calm and consistent with those answers, they usually figure out that we really are not that much different than they are, and lose interest.

    I have had questions like "How do you decide who is on top during sex?" and "How do you decide who does the dishes?" Simple. The same way straight couples do. When the questions are more along the lines of "Which one of you sucks and which one gets sucked?" that's when I counter with "Do you lick her more often than she sucks you?" or more to the point, "That's between my lover and me, just as your actual sexual acts are between you and your partner." Yes, gay couples are often a token of a liberal's mindset at a party, or a "see-how-open-minded-I-am" trophy. We do have the means to change that.
     
  19. Matthew

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    You're not so bad. :wink:
     
  20. GoneA

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    I could not have said it better myself.

    I think posing questions is a good idea as it helps to develop a line of communication and, consequently, understanding of a sexual orientation that's been closeted for much too long. While I can conclude that some of the questions you say you've encountered are altogether preposterous (i.e. how do you decided who does the dishes? Worse yet: which one of you sucks and which one gets sucked? The former is horribly ignorant and the latter is outrageously meddlesome ... needless to say rude) some are well-informed and more perceptive and for that I can commend people.
     
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