Gays and musicals

Mighty Joe

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I was a tenor in the high school choir and loved the movie musicals. I'm more of a singer than actor but have appeared in such local theatre productions as "Mame", "How Now Dow Jones", "Dames At Sea","Li'l Abner", "Oklahoma" to "Picnic", "The Skin Of Our Teeth" and "The Man Who Came To Dinner". None starring roles, I'll have to admit. I've always wanted to do "Best Little Whorehouse In Texas" - I love the music...especially the Aggie's number.
So.....the question is? YES, I am.
 

jeepwranglerboi

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Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Dec 29 2004, 12:50 AM
Of course I could post a lot in this thread, but I just don't have the energy. It would turn into a saga of epic proportions, and we wouldn't want that!
[post=270373]Quoted post[/post]​

I totally agree with you! I actually have been avoiding this thread since I am a professional and I knew that I would go on for ages and now that this has been brought up I feel like I should say a few things.

First, saying that homosexuals only play homosexuals and heterosexuals only play heterosexuals is ridiculous. I have absolutely no problem with a straight person playing a gay character since gay people have been playing straight on stage for aeons. I do know a few people who harbor some resentment since there are so many wonderful gay characters being created nowadays. To me a great character is a great character regardless if they are straight or gay.

As far as the ethnic thing is concerned, Actors' Equity Association, the theatrical union states that it is against Equity guidelines to try and alter yourself to play an ethnic part. Meaning dawning blackface, drawing on Asian eyes, etc. I personally believe in color blind casting. If ya got the talent then you've got the talent and to hell with what color your skin is.

That's all I am gonna say for now as I could go on and on and fill an entire thread about my passion for musical theatre.
 

jonb

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Then I'm really at a loss for the relaxer that one mulatto backup dancer wore. Between chartreuse buckskin and a UFO in the background, I was thinking WTF?
 

collegeguy711

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I am niether confirming or denying the stereotype that gays like musicals, however for those that do... I have a few explanations....

-_-

1) gays often become involved in the arts, as it may be an emotional outlet for all the things they're going through and feel

2) many of the main characters in musicals, especially the ones that gays like the most, (especially ones that Barbra Striesand is in) seem to have the whole world against them, telling the who they can and cannot be. And these characters rebel against all this, and find themselves and usually love and acceptance, by choosing to be themselves. gays identify (we identify :D ) with this, because we have the whole world trying to tell us who to be, and we are all hoping to find the same things as the musical characters, and our own happy endings.

3) many musicals have strong female lead charcters which gay men also identfy with. Most gay men feel closer and identify better with women especially strong women, i.e. mothers, sisters, fag hags.

some examples of musicals that exemplify this whole strong woman against the world telling them they're wrong for being themselves or other gay themes...
-most Barbra Streisand musicals, especially -Yentl and Funny Girl
-West side story (forbidden love)
- Wicked (just cause she's different she's evil)
- Cabaret (about a bisexual man/man/woman love triangle)
-La cage a folles (about drag queens)
-Rent (about people who are ostrasized because they're different, many gay characters)
-South pacific (about forbidden love)

these are just a few. some gay men may identify with musicals as opposed to say football for all the reasons above, because gay men are more in touch with their emotions and can really identify with emotional strength, as opposed to football which is about physical strength. The gay men that identify more with physical strength spend their time at the gym, not the theater.
 

txquis

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Well, musical theater is one of my professions, too...that is what took me to NYC for the last five years.
Glad to know i'm not the only one around these parts who is interested in it...
not by a long shot.
 

madame_zora

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Collegeguy, that was a very insightful post. I think that's why I've always been drawn to gay men as friends, because they are often more in touch with their emotional side. Been a happy fag hag for a long time, but not to turn gay men str8- just to enjoy their company as they are. Women who hang around gay men thinking they'll go str8 "just for them" get on my nerves.
 

cypher13

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Time to 'fess up to something else from my past...pornograpohy and now this...

Your hero (me) was in a roving musical comedy company. This was the summer after the life in porn and, no, no one recognized me. As with porn, this was nothing glamorous, to be sure.

The leading man was, forty years before, a matinee idol in the movies but now, he was old, the voice nothing like it had been and he had a serious alcohol problem to go along with it. The leading lady had more of a career in voice overs in commrrcials and movies. She was rather striking in her own way and she made sure to engage the attentions of all the male members of the company in every way you can think of and many that defy imagination and description. They were the "stars," and among my jobs was the fine art of waking up the leading man from his daily alcoholic stupor. My biggest fear was that I would, one day, find him dead. While he has since died, it did not happen on my watch.

Naturally there were other women in the company, we ere all horny and it was the days before the virus....so a whole lotta fun was had by all. If there was anything even remotely gay going on, I was unaware of it.

The lot of us travelled around in an ancient broken down bus, visiting such places as Williston, North Dakota, Glasgow, Montana, and Mobridge, South Dakota, to recall three. The largest city we played was, I think, Sheridan, Wyoming. Ah, the glamour of it all! The greasepaint! The limelight! Sharing a motel room with three other guys who hated me because someone in the audience winked at me (yes!) or the aforementioned leading lady was paying too much attention to me or who knows what? Lots of petty rivalries, jealousies and back biting and our manager liked it that way. Thought it made us better. Did I mention he was an outpatient from the Menninger Clinic?

We performed two standards: Show Boat (with its theme of interracial love and - get this - we were all white. Joe, who sang Ol' Man River in the manner of Jules Bledsoe and Paul Robeson was white and no one even noticed; Julie was white, too!) and South Pacific (again, with a theme of interracial love but....).

For small town, Christocratic America, even then, certain themes were not acceptable. Everyone wanted to hear Ol' Man River, so it was included, even with a white guy singing it. In South Pacific, the whole secondary theme of Joe Cable and Liat was hacked out. Yes, he sang "Younger than Springtime," but to a Navy nurse...and "Carefully Taught" simply wasn't there. Emile's kids were never seen, but no reference was made to him having had a wife from the Islands...you get the idea, so when Nellie ran out on him it was because he went on that secret mission with Joe Cable, and the whole idea of Neillie's bigotry was neatly avoided, as Nellie Forbush embodied small-town American values.

So, these musicals that were so cutting edge in their day, well, there were toned- down versions for the boondocks, toned-down versions that emphasized the fluffier songs and the funnier aspects, rather than the serious messages. When someone (not me) pointed this out when we first met our manager, he explained that cuts had to be made because "these hicks [and he used a far stronger word] have short attention spans and can't understand that stuff anyway. They want to see us perform and hear the songs." The strange thing is, these were AUTHORIZED versions of the musicals. I am aware of a version of West Side Story then making the rounds that had two rival Italian gangs. I do not know if anything like this is done any more.

So, if you have seen any of these in summer stock in small-town America, you might not have seen the work as its creators intended. As such, people often have mistaken notions of what's in them. Even the movies are not reliable, particularly in the case of Show Boat. It's sad....both of these are very, very good works and outside large cities they are hardly ever performed as they should be. Perhaps impressarios should wake up to the fact that most people, even Americans, are grown up enough to handle these themes.

As far as I know, none of the company was gay, openly or otherwise.

As far as gays getting into theater, well, why not? Nothing new there, look at Christopher Marlowe, Oscar Wilde and Joe Orton any one of whom could write circles around just about any playwright active today. Yes, shows like "Rent" and "Phantom" do have that ambiance about them, but so what? One either likes them or one doesn't and I think to dislike a character, a performer, a playwright, the playwright's ouevre or whatever solely because that person is gay is silly.

Some musicals are really great...but to give you an idea of how things have changed, people now looking at the film Singin' in the Rain for the first time always think the Gene Kelly and Donald O'Connor characters were gay lovers. For that matter, when The Odd Couple first appeared no one thought that Felix and Oscar were gay - now young people seem to always snicker at the concept and its implications which, to them, seem so obvious. This never occurred to me when I first saw them.

I do not think the issue is gays getting involved in theater, as gays were always there. I think the issue is that too damned many "straight" people are not secure enough in their own sexuality that they honestly believe there is this vast gay conspiracy afoot to convert their sons and daughters and maybe even them, too. There, I said it! Now I have this feeling that a lot of people will soon start sticking white hot needles into the knees of a waxen image - of me.

It's just like the people who found Communists under every bed and in every closet back in the fifties. Hmmm..beds...closets...coincidence?....decide for yourselves but I think these fears are irrational, irrespective of the era.

Can you tell I did not have much to do around the office today?
 
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Originally posted by hungteen02@Dec 23 2004, 01:54 AM
I was wondering why gays like musicals so much. I don't really understand why being gay or not would have any impact on why you do or do not like musicals. BTW I do like many musicals of every variety
[post=269264]Quoted post[/post]​

who knows... but this and a lot of other stereotypes, though obviously not very relevant when making blanket statements meant to be all-inclusive (there are always exceptions) seem to have at least a seed of truth in them.

I like musicals quite a lot and am perfectly straight. But I'm abnormal.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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Originally posted by jeepwranglerboi@Dec 29 2004, 04:37 PM
As far as the ethnic thing is concerned, Actors' Equity Association, the theatrical union states that it is against Equity guidelines to try and alter yourself to play an ethnic part. Meaning dawning blackface, drawing on Asian eyes, etc. I personally believe in color blind casting. If ya got the talent then you've got the talent and to hell with what color your skin is.

Opera, of course, is different. I can hardly count the times I've helped someone fake Asian eyes for a production of Madama Butterfly, Turandot, or The Mikado. Now colour-blind casting is not an option for Porgy and Bess; Gershwin specified that the singers performing his opera must truly be black. Many singers of colour find the use of stereotypical dialect in Porgy and Bess to be offensive and demeaning, but Leontyne Price has sung the role of Bess. If La Price wasn't 'too good' to play it, no one should be.

Interesting 'colouring' note: When I auditioned for West Side Story, I figured my Carribean ethnicity would make me a shoe-in for a member of the Sharks. I was wrong. I was cast as a Jet because I was too fair to read from stage distance as a Latino! :blink:
 

Freddie53

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Originally posted by hungteen02@Dec 23 2004, 12:54 AM
I was wondering why gays like musicals so much. I don't really understand why being gay or not would have any impact on why you do or do not like musicals. BTW I do like many musicals of every variety
[post=269264]Quoted post[/post]​
It appears that way especially in America. In America boys are encouraged to play football. Boys taking piano lessons are often called sissys. Ditto for singing in the choir even at church. Now I am talking about elementary kids not middle school or high school. Many men from the rugged tradition of settling this land thought music was for the women. In church a majority of pianists and organists are women. It was and still is hell on boys who wanted to pursue music instead of football. So much male talent was lost in the elementary years and when the male voice starts changing, even more male talent is lost as guys quit singing during that time and some just never return to singing.

And the American stereoptyping of guys into music as sissy just leads right into well, then they are gay.

The stereortyping of football players is that they are rugged men eagarly lusting for some hot chicks after the last ball game. In reality there have been several professional football players that were gay. I can remember when that was first revealed to "American kids" of my era. And the response was, "No way, only guys who like to sing are fags." I want to make it clear that I am only quoting what was said. That phrase is horendous, but it doesn't change the fact that it was the reaction of the American kids of the 60's upon finding that gays also play football.

I think it is more that straight guys, due to our culture in America, don't pursue musical talents. Gay guys are already excluded by striaght men and generally women don't play football, but women in music encourage all men to be involved so there is a place of acceptance in music early on for guys who are gay. And gays contrary to public belief, struggle for acceptance somewhere, anywhere.

There is musical talent in most people. It has to be developed. So a lot of this is a perception thing. In rural town America, guys who sang were sissys as elementary kids. Then when they were in their teens they were gay. No matter how straight they really were, no matter how many girls they may have taken to their beds for ecstasy unknown before, the public perception in America is that they are gay.

Truth is, some psycologists say that 10 % of the population is competely straight and about 10 % is completely gay. The rest can be developed into being straight, bi or gay. by that I mean that 20 % of guys can't be changed one way or the other. The rest are changeable depending on the cultural rules when they were developing their sexuality as children and teens. Not an expert and not necessarily agreeing with this statement. But just repeating what I have read as what some experts in the field have to say about sexuality.

So, you can see one how the perception can be developed, and from that perception eventually comes truth. Because people tend to develop the traits they have if others perceive them to have those traits in the first place.

I don't know how many men have come to me and said man I wish I could play the piano like you. When I was growing up..........then the stories change but the plot stays the same. Somehow hunting and sports were thrust upon them and they didn't develop that sissy talent that they had. Now they wish they could go back and learn. Some have and learned to play quite well. And no, they didn't turn from striaght to bi at first when they started playing and then as they developed their piano talent they completely went gay and divorced their wives and found a boy playmate. Never heard of it happening. But middle school age boys in America can easily be convinced that this always happens. And sadly, now only can they be, they are, many, many times convinced of that folly when at that impressionable age of the early teens.

There will be some on this site that will argue that this couldn't be true. Well, I am a product of the sixties. I took piano lessons. I took the ribbing of being gay because I played the piano. Those same guys ganged around the piano for me to play the latest hit tunes while in high school but in elementary and junior hi, I was a sissy which of course in America is the same thing as gay. Ask any kid. Times haven't changed. Except...........

Now everything that teens don't like is gay. As in, "Oh, I don't like that shirt, it is gay." Oh, yea I heard that song the other day too, it sucks, it is so gay." Yep, that is the lingo of our teens today in the good ole USA. You know the country that preaches tolerance and is the new moral cop for the world? That is us. We have "family values" now. Except, all in the family aren't invited to the table. But they aren't hungry, they are busy practicing on that new musical. You know, all men who love musicals are gay. You did know that didnt you?
 

txquis

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Wow, Freddie..I agree with so much that you said.

I had a twin brother, who died when we were 21...
He had many of the same talents that I do, concerning singing,
acting, playing the piano, drawing...
but, being straight, he did not pursue them the way i did.
Even i felt a great amount of shame about what i enjoyed.

By high school age, he had left all of those talents by the wayside,
and I came to terms with it, said, "this is what i enjoy" and stayed in
choir, and drama, while he stopped it altogether.
I found my niche and he lost his.

I taught at the elementary school level for many years in a rural area,
and it is true that, unless you are in a highly cultured area like NYC, (a place that has schools for talented artsy kids) it is harder for a little boy to express this.
 

Freddie53

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Originally posted by txquis@Dec 31 2004, 09:34 AM
Wow, Freddie..I agree with so much that you said.



I taught at the elementary school level for many years in a rural area,
and it is true that, unless you are in a highly cultured area like NYC, (a place that has schools for talented artsy kids) it is harder for a little boy to express this.
[post=271078]Quoted post[/post]​
txquis,

First my sympathy for you in the loss of your brother. My father had a set of two cousins who wereidentical twins. One of them died in a plane crash when he was in his 30's. The surviivng twin never got over it. They were mirrow twins. One left haned, the other right handed. They parted their hair on opposite sides. The both lived in the straight world. But the one who died went through several marriages and had an unsettled adult life. I can't help but wonder if the mirror effect was also true for their sexuality. Both are dead now. I know you won't ever forget him.

I too, taught in a rural elementary and worked with youth at high school level. I also taught middle school and high school some as well. So you are on target. My mother came from a long line of educated and artsy people. My mother sent me to music camp starting in seventh grade. My first introduction of choral music was Messiah. Then it was St. Paul by Mendelsohn. Oh hick I can't spell his name. But I grew up in a small rural southern town.

So yes, you know all too well what I was talking about if you taught elementary school in a rural area. I bet you heard some of those same phrases.

It is tragic what we are doing to our boys in school and society. Research shows that the arts improves standardized test achievement scores and I Q scores. And the arts provide an outlet for stress release and creativity which gives a sense of well being.

Thanks for validating my observatoins.

Glad to know we have school teaching. especially in elementary school in common. You have made several excellent posts here at LPSG.
 

txquis

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You have made several excellent posts here at LPSG.

Thanks so much, Freddie.
Gosh, i hope some of them made some sense, after 7 hundred and something times posting. :p

The thing that amazes me about this place is that I came here intending
to bond, and I have, but i dont think i expected to learn so much.
that's cool.
Thanks for your posts/comments.
 

jeepwranglerboi

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Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Dec 31 2004, 05:12 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Dec 31 2004, 05:12 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jeepwranglerboi@Dec 29 2004, 04:37 PM
As far as the ethnic thing is concerned, Actors&#39; Equity Association, the theatrical union states that it is against Equity guidelines to try and alter yourself to play an ethnic part. Meaning dawning blackface, drawing on Asian eyes, etc. I personally believe in color blind casting. If ya got the talent then you&#39;ve got the talent and to hell with what color your skin is.

Opera, of course, is different. I can hardly count the times I&#39;ve helped someone fake Asian eyes for a production of Madama Butterfly, Turandot, or The Mikado. Now colour-blind casting is not an option for Porgy and Bess; Gershwin specified that the singers performing his opera must truly be black. Many singers of colour find the use of stereotypical dialect in Porgy and Bess to be offensive and demeaning, but Leontyne Price has sung the role of Bess. If La Price wasn&#39;t &#39;too good&#39; to play it, no one should be.

Interesting &#39;colouring&#39; note: When I auditioned for West Side Story, I figured my Carribean ethnicity would make me a shoe-in for a member of the Sharks. I was wrong. I was cast as a Jet because I was too fair to read from stage distance as a Latino&#33; :blink:
[post=271014]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]


I agree with you 100% that if it is neccessary for a part to be of particular ethnic origin it definitely should be. I cannot imagine anything but a black "Porgy and Bess" just like I cannot imagine a white Joe or Queenie in "Showboat" like cypher describes, however I think that there is no reason there cannot be a latina Julie Jordan in "Carousel" or a black Sweeny Todd.

For some reason it isn&#39;t considred taboo for Operas to use make up techniques to alter apperacnes of ethnicities on stage. That is rather interesting isn&#39;t it.

Unfortunately, there are many shows that use stereotypical dialect. In "West Side Story" alone, I hated calling out "Spic" numerous times throughout the show. In "Big River" I had to say the &#39;N&#39; word a lot as well but you just have to seperate yourself from the charachter.

Your "West Side Story" experiance was almost identical to mine&#33; The first time I did the show I thought for sure that I would be cast as a Shark due to my Italian, Spanish and Jewish ethnicity. I too have olive skin and my hair is naturally medium to dark brown (although I have been known to dye it or add highlights on many occasions) so I thought I too was a shue in for a Shark but alas I was cast as a Jet (Diesel and I covered Riff) much to my pleasure since the Jets get a lot more to do. I&#39;ve done the show four times now and I&#39;ve always been Riff or Diesel.

xoxo :wub:
 

txquis

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Originally posted by jeepwranglerboi+Dec 31 2004, 03:02 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jeepwranglerboi &#064; Dec 31 2004, 03:02 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-txquis@Dec 31 2004, 06:59 PM
I was Babyjon.
[post=271130]Quoted post[/post]​

I always thought that was a great part&#33;
[post=271142]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]


It struck me the other day...now i&#39;m in my middle thirties and i could
only be cast as Gladhand...or Lt. Shrank or something. LOL.

I started out in roles like Charlie Brown in YOURE A GOOD MAN...
and Will in OKLAHOMA&#33;...and Motel in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF.

I"ve graduated to things like Archibald in SECRET GARDEN,
and J. Pierpont Finch in HOW TO SUCCEED and the 7 role lead in LITTLE ME.
I&#39;ll probably end up doing some more Matthew Broderick-type roles, since i&#39;ve been likened to him in physical type.
 

jonb

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I agree about the arts and education. It&#39;s one of the most oft-neglected elements of the curriculum. (I mean, it&#39;s below PE on the priority, PE itself being necessary in the age of super-sizing.)

As far as gay men and the arts, I think part of the reason is actually a vicious cycle: Many straight men avoid the arts because it makes us look gay. LOL Of course, these same straight men like to watch Oz.