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Gays in the Military

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by big_gp35, Mar 30, 2010.

  1. big_gp35

    big_gp35 Experimental Member

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    Why is it such a big deal to openly have Gays in the Military?

    As a former recruiter, we recruit a direct representation of the country as a whole (or try) by recruiting the same % of whites, blacks, other, etc. So why not recruit Gays as part of that.

    I have heard people claiming that showering, sharing quarters etc as a complaint.

    Anyone ever changed in a gym, or showered. There's a pretty good chance that there has been a Gay person there at one time or another. Use a public restroom? You get the point.

    Also, sexual harassment laws work both ways. So why is everyone freaking out.

    Last year when I was in survival school, I had a Gay room mate the week prior to going out in the field. He never tried anything, never made me uncomfortable, and we actually have remained friends. I felt he was Gay then, and after becoming friends he told me about his boyfriend, lifestyle, etc.

    I just think its sad. I still continue to serve and I am proud of my service, but things need to change. I have had Gay friends over the years that I have served with. It's very difficult on them living in secrecy and having to constantly worry about every aspect of what they say and do. One friend of mine, she had a bad drinking problem and would often show up annebriated. We always covered for her. She confided in me about how much it bothered her to not be able to be who she really was at all times.

    Oh well, just curious how others feel.
     
  2. D_dlv03hzx

    D_dlv03hzx Banned

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    I agree totally. to quote the West Wing's Admiral Percy Fitzwallace

    "I also think the military wasn't designed to be an instrument of social change... Problem with that is, that's what they were saying about me 50 years ago. Blacks shouldn't serve with whites, it would disrupt the unit. You know what? It did disrupt the unit. The unit got over it. The unit changed. I'm an admiral in the U.S. Navy and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Beat that with a stick."
     
  3. the_reverend

    the_reverend Sexy Member

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    i've been asking myself the same thing since i was a kid and DADT first passed...ludicrous notion.
     
  4. 8060

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    The problem with having openly gay members in the military is a direct result of the 'caveman mentality' that I mentioned a few days ago, in my opinion of course. It's just a fear thing. "It's tradition. We've been doing it years and it works." No, it doesn't work. If someone has to suppress a particular part of themselves in order to perform a duty, I'm inclined to believe that their 'attention' has the potential to be elsewhere and not really focused on their duty. That can cause depression and lead someone to do detrimental things to themselves or others when they aren't happy on the inside. Becoming an adult should give people the freedom to be who they are, and finally at 18, deciding to work Uncle Sam, you have to revert back to into the darkness. That's just not cool.

    I've served my time for Uncle Sam and was exceptional at my job. I received awards and promotions far before schedule in some instances. What I hated was that I couldn't have my guy with me 'out in the light' like those male/female couples. That made for some long days out in the middle of the desert. My superiors and comrades alike loved to see me coming and hated to see me go because I was good at my job...not because I'm attracted to men.

    While I served, I JUST served. I didn't live my life like I would have liked to because that was the situation I was in. Some things you can't fight and have to accept. At the time, that's what I did. I couldn't wait until it was over. I had missed being ME on a daily basis. I think that I would have enjoyed my service more had I been able to trust Uncle Sam like he expected to trust me.

    The sharing of the showers and quarters is a very small reason to discriminate against a particular group of people. I believe that our gay citizens would not go into any kind of military enlistment to hit on members of the same sex. It's not a gay bar and we know that. It's the U. S. Military. I would hope that the government would believe that its citizens aren't that shallow. Behind enemy lines is nowhere to try to pick someone up.



    Now, off duty...back at the barracks...that's another story;).
     
  5. bigbull29

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    To make straight men feel straighter.:biggrin1:
     
  6. Smaccoms

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    Actually, I'm reading a book on this currently, not specifically the military, but it's definitely a major portion of it. It discusses the evolution of homophobia in America over the 20th century (a major part of this being the military). I highly recommend it. It's called "The Straight State" by Margot Canaday.
    I would say how the military treats "gay people" is a definite reflection of what gay culture represents in American society...I consider them connected. Isn't interesting to compare the two concepts, especially how they don't match up in certain respects?
     
  7. big_gp35

    big_gp35 Experimental Member

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    Great points.

    The military is in place to protect the freedoms of this nation and its people. Its ludicrous to preserve freedoms that you cannot enjoy because you are in the military.

    I've said it for years. As a military member we live in a communist enviroment to preserve and promote democracy. IDK, just my opinion.
     
  8. ackomack

    ackomack Lurker

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    Very good points everyone... It is insane that in 2010 this is still even an issue and it breaks my heart that people have to hide who they are for fear of their jobs and future.
     
  9. blasianluv85

    blasianluv85 Experimental Member

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    The thing with the military is not that they won't accept gays but that they do not want to associate themselves with the image that is associated with being gay. But yet we preach freedom this human rights that etc. We"re basically one big commercial to get people to like us

    however I'm hopeful in that we will change fir the better
     
  10. B_Lightkeeper

    B_Lightkeeper Banned

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    big gp35, your gay friend was/is to be admired. You have such a great body, I doubt I cold have resisted making advances although I'd rather have your friendship than a one night stand.
     
  11. Yatzi

    Yatzi Lurker

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    The reason I think people think its a big deal to have gays in the military is because most people still think that being in the military is a big man, straight, thing ect. now thats my opinion and some other may think different.

    I myself thought about applying for the RAF (Royal Air Force) and well I still have my application in and the first thing I thought about it was "I'm gay, showers oh great....." but after speaking to a few people already in the RAF they told me that no many people are bothered about it unless you make a big deal about it.

    But still I don't see why people make such a fuss about it.
     
  12. titan1968

    titan1968 Loved Member

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    It's not an issue in Canada. Gays are generally accepted in our society and have the same rights and freedoms as heterosexuals (e.g. marriage, spousal benefits). The present Harper government in Ottawa, which has unusually strong ties with the religious right in Canada and the USA (pro-Bush, 'pro-family', pro-business) has tried to redefine marriage/ family in the traditional sense, but he's a minority government. His policies/ideas go against Canadian social democratic values. I predict Canadians will soon grow tired of his government and Harper's lack of vision, and it will fall some time in the near future.

    I cannot tolerate people such as Harper who claim to represent everyone or to fight for family values when they really don't. They just want to divide and conquer, and create a world in their image. I say down with mediocrity!

    Good points so far and good thread.
     
    #12 titan1968, Mar 31, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  13. Golfbuddy

    Golfbuddy Expert Member

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    It's a ge snerational thing, folks. The guys who won WWII are from a generation where being "queer" was a shameful thing, even punishable by death. The Korean vets were a bit more accepting, the Vietnam vets even more so. But the real sticking point has been at the military academies and the Pentagon. But as that older generation passes, gay tolerance in the military will improve. And keep this in mind: it is not a right-left debate. Over 20 years ago arch-conservative Barry Goldwater said it should matter if a soldier is gay or straight, all that mattered is he can shoot straight. I wouldn't be surprised to see total acceptance of gays in the military within 10 more years.
     
  14. THEDUDEofDestiny

    THEDUDEofDestiny Experimental Member

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    When I went to Basic we had a kid who was pretty open about being a homosexual. No one really cared, we all showered with him, whatever. Of course when you have a bunch of 17 and 18 year old guys together, especially in that kind of environment, the word "fag" was thrown around a lot but hardly ever at him. His platoon DS made a couple jokes about him being gay but the DSs hit everyone so that was no big deal. We had our no sexual harassment talk and the bay DS goes "We are in a new era. You can no longer hold being gay against someone in the service. We are all here to serve our country and the Army and keep our private lives private. So if you're gay? By all means slob that knob but stay the fuck away from me with that." I think most of the problems with it come from people higher up the chain of command.
     
  15. B_lrgeggs

    B_lrgeggs Banned

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    I am pretty old fashion. I don't think women should be fighting along men
    as it will most likely be distracting? Does anyone know if there has been
    significant issues of pre marital pregnancy and or divorce when women have been introduced into the troops? If it has not been an issue then I will admit that I am wrong. But some how I think those kind of statistics
    have not been taken in consideration.
     
  16. pleasureboy

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    The Army is already so gay. I was in the 101st Airborne and I'd bet Ft Campbell was about 30% gay.
     
  17. big_gp35

    big_gp35 Experimental Member

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    I agree, people would be shocked at how many gays are already serving. LOL Naivete is a beautiful thing.

    I would agree that its a bigger issue with the older generations.

    As for women serving along side men. I've been at deployed bases with women, not fighting alongside though, and they do sometimes get pregnant. Sex, and emotional relationships are like a drug in that enviroment. A temporary escape from a bad situation in my opinion. I was never fortunate enough to get laid while deployed. Slim pickens. LOL
     
  18. B_nyvin

    B_nyvin Banned

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    I would say there is already a sizable portion of the military that's gay anyway...to deny this would just be idiocy.
     
  19. Lynx

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    Having proudly served in the US Military, I understood that it was a choice - my choice to enlist. This choice included accepting the rules regarding behavior in the armed forces. When I signed up, the questions of "Have you ever engaged in homosexual activity?" and "Do you identify yourself as homosexual?" were blacked out in magic marker and I was instructed by my recruiter not to answer them - so I didn't.

    Just as soldiers are not allowed to legally drink alcohol until the age of 21 - even though they may have enlisted as early as 17 - the rules must be followed and soldiers are not exempt from them. Being gay is not punishable by the UCMJ (Uniform Court of Military Justice) but practicing homosexual activity is. By the way, adultry will also get a soldier dishonorably discharged.

    The policy of "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was just coming into full force while I was serving and was more of a tongue-in-cheek was to easily discount any "soupçons" of the (percieved) homosexuality of fellow soldiers rather than a way do discharge them.

    I see no reason why this is an issue for those who have chosen to serve their country and who accept the benefits and risks of this service. I was personally much more concerned about the risks of war than those of being discharged for breaking the rules.
     
  20. Hard4you83

    Hard4you83 Experimental Member

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    I have been in the military for about 8 years now and I have known many gay, bi, and lesbian military members. I am myself somewhat bi. I don't go around telling people about it. I have never even had anyone ask. I don't think its a big deal. Like previously said sexual harrassment goes both ways... if someone were to make an unwanted sexual advance they would be kicked out so fast its not even funny. As far as showers go after showering with 60 guys your first day of basic you lose all sense of modesty... let alone really caring what others around you are doing. I have seen people shave their nuts in the showers. It's really not a big deal, and I think that the younger generations have less of a problem with it then the older ones. Hell half the people I know have at least one gay/bi friend.
     
  21. punk09

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    The only problem with gays in the military is that as a political issue it has been executed horrifically to the extent that not only have proponents failed to win, but they have done harm to other campaigns such as housing and job discrimination protections by sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and dominating what little face time we get with the powerful.

    LGBT folks span the spectrum of politics. But we are not overwhelmingly conservative. You would not know that, however, by looking at the two main thrusts of LGBT activism, same sex marriage and gays in the military, perhaps two of the most conservative issues imaginable.

    I personally think on one level that excluding gays from the military is a Good First Step towards ensuring that the military remains the exclusive province of straight, white, christian conservatives with lower than average intelligence, my idea of cannon fodder. But would never begrudge anyone their right to follow their desires.

    That said, the wealthy and conservative drivers of the LGBT agenda have prevented so many LGBT from following our desires by keeping us at the mercy of homophobes as we seek housing and employment in sectors where death is not an accepted fringe benefit like it is in the military.

    If the military were full of such hotties as 8060, I'd enlist in a fucking heartbeat.
     
  22. conntom

    conntom Expert Member

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    There was an Englishman in WWII that was gay but he played a big part behind the scenes that helped win that war. He was a patriot to his country

    After the war they found he was gay and it wrecked his life.

    Wrong. Very wrong.

    You can be gay and be a great, loyal and trustworthy American.
     
  23. the_reverend

    the_reverend Sexy Member

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    while i have the utmost respect for the vast majority of men and women in the armed services...i really like Bill Hicks' take on the issue:

    "Anyone...DUMB ENOUGH...to want to serve in the military, should be able to."

    ;)
     
  24. B_Jingoist

    B_Jingoist Banned

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    The reason DADT should stay is because there is no room for individuals in the military. The more you allow people to be an individual the less likely they are to form a team.

    The military works under different circumstances than the civilian world and therefor can play by its own rules.
     
  25. TurkeyWithaSunburn

    TurkeyWithaSunburn Legendary Member

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    That's actually a laughable reason.
     
  26. B_Jingoist

    B_Jingoist Banned

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    Have you ever been in the military? We are not a group of individuals and until you have seen firsthand what 'individuals' can do to the organization of the military I suggest you think twice on what you call laughable.

    No one has the right to serve in the military.
     
  27. conntom

    conntom Expert Member

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    I think it makes sense. Sexuality shouldn't be highlighted at all. Either str8 or gay it means nothing and should not mean anything. It should be a non factor. I don't want gay relationships or str8 relationships playing a part in the defense of the country.
     
  28. the_reverend

    the_reverend Sexy Member

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    the difference is, if someone discovers that a soldier is straight in their civilian life, they aren't penalized for it. if it's legitimately a non factor, then it shouldn't matter one way or the other. as long as you're not trying to pick up people on base or turning the marches into a dance number, what does it matter?
     
  29. helgaleena

    helgaleena Sexy Member

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    An army travels on its stomach, said Napoleon. He meant supply lines ostensibly but it occurs to me that one has to keep the genitals tucked in when in such a position....

    Lynx has made a very intelligent summation of the issue IMO.
     
  30. Smaccoms

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    I just recalled something which people in this thread might find interesting. There are lots of things about ancient Greek culture which is quite interesting. For example:
    The Greeks had special unit formation in their army. In this unit formation, everyone in unit would form couples--romantic couples. Sexual and emotional attachment in these couples was thought to bolster morale, and make for a more effective and sturdy unit. The primary example of this is the Sacred Band of Thebes. I'm not a historian, but at some point, the ancient Greek city-state of Thebes came into power (with one of these units as the center of their army at the time). This guy from Macedonia defeated them. He was so impressed with the performance of this "Sacred Band" in battle, that after their defeat, he built a memorial in their honor, and made a speech stating anyone who ridiculed this unit formation system (Sparta) was a blubbering idiot.
    Little fun fact for yea. Feel free to correct any information I have wrong, or to add.
     
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