Gays in the Military

[punk09]

The only problem with gays in the military is that as a political issue it has been executed horrifically to the extent that not only have proponents failed to win, but they have done harm to other campaigns such as housing and job discrimination protections by sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and dominating what little face time we get with the powerful.

LGBT folks span the spectrum of politics. But we are not overwhelmingly conservative. You would not know that, however, by looking at the two main thrusts of LGBT activism, same sex marriage and gays in the military, perhaps two of the most conservative issues imaginable.

I personally think on one level that excluding gays from the military is a Good First Step towards ensuring that the military remains the exclusive province of straight, white, christian conservatives with lower than average intelligence, my idea of cannon fodder. But would never begrudge anyone their right to follow their desires.

That said, the wealthy and conservative drivers of the LGBT agenda have prevented so many LGBT from following our desires by keeping us at the mercy of homophobes as we seek housing and employment in sectors where death is not an accepted fringe benefit like it is in the military.

If the military were full of such hotties as 8060, I'd enlist in a fucking heartbeat.

 

[conntom]

There was an Englishman in WWII that was gay but he played a big part behind the scenes that helped win that war. He was a patriot to his country

After the war they found he was gay and it wrecked his life.

Wrong. Very wrong.

You can be gay and be a great, loyal and trustworthy American.

 

[the_reverend]

while i have the utmost respect for the vast majority of men and women in the armed services...i really like Bill Hicks' take on the issue:

"Anyone...DUMB ENOUGH...to want to serve in the military, should be able to."

 

[B_Jingoist]

The reason DADT should stay is because there is no room for individuals in the military. The more you allow people to be an individual the less likely they are to form a team.

The military works under different circumstances than the civilian world and therefor can play by its own rules.

 

[TurkeyWithaSunburn]

The reason DADT should stay is because there is no room for individuals in the military. The more you allow people to be an individual the less likely they are to form a team.

The military works under different circumstances than the civilian world and therefor can play by its own rules.

That's actually a laughable reason.

 

[B_Jingoist]

That's actually a laughable reason.

Have you ever been in the military? We are not a group of individuals and until you have seen firsthand what 'individuals' can do to the organization of the military I suggest you think twice on what you call laughable.

No one has the right to serve in the military.

 

[conntom]

Have you ever been in the military? We are not a group of individuals and until you have seen firsthand what 'individuals' can do to the organization of the military I suggest you think twice on what you call laughable.

No one has the right to serve in the military.

I think it makes sense. Sexuality shouldn't be highlighted at all. Either str8 or gay it means nothing and should not mean anything. It should be a non factor. I don't want gay relationships or str8 relationships playing a part in the defense of the country.

 

[the_reverend]

the difference is, if someone discovers that a soldier is straight in their civilian life, they aren't penalized for it. if it's legitimately a non factor, then it shouldn't matter one way or the other. as long as you're not trying to pick up people on base or turning the marches into a dance number, what does it matter?

 

[helgaleena]

An army travels on its stomach, said Napoleon. He meant supply lines ostensibly but it occurs to me that one has to keep the genitals tucked in when in such a position....

Lynx has made a very intelligent summation of the issue IMO.

 

[Smaccoms]

I just recalled something which people in this thread might find interesting. There are lots of things about ancient Greek culture which is quite interesting. For example:
The Greeks had special unit formation in their army. In this unit formation, everyone in unit would form couples--romantic couples. Sexual and emotional attachment in these couples was thought to bolster morale, and make for a more effective and sturdy unit. The primary example of this is the Sacred Band of Thebes. I'm not a historian, but at some point, the ancient Greek city-state of Thebes came into power (with one of these units as the center of their army at the time). This guy from Macedonia defeated them. He was so impressed with the performance of this "Sacred Band" in battle, that after their defeat, he built a memorial in their honor, and made a speech stating anyone who ridiculed this unit formation system (Sparta) was a blubbering idiot.
Little fun fact for yea. Feel free to correct any information I have wrong, or to add.

 

[B_Jingoist]

I just recalled something which people in this thread might find interesting. There are lots of things about ancient Greek culture which is quite interesting. For example:
The Greeks had special unit formation in their army. In this unit formation, everyone in unit would form couples--romantic couples. Sexual and emotional attachment in these couples was thought to bolster morale, and make for a more effective and sturdy unit. The primary example of this is the Sacred Band of Thebes. I'm not a historian, but at some point, the ancient Greek city-state of Thebes came into power (with one of these units as the center of their army at the time). This guy from Macedonia defeated them. He was so impressed with the performance of this "Sacred Band" in battle, that after their defeat, he built a memorial in their honor, and made a speech stating anyone who ridiculed this unit formation system (Sparta) was a blubbering idiot.
Little fun fact for yea. Feel free to correct any information I have wrong, or to add.

Its really a common misconception on how that worked. They weren't real relationships, more like prison relationships. A stronger male would basically take on another male, typically much younger and weaker, and basically use them for sex.

There is a similar thing in the Middle East where basically boys are for fun women are for procreation.

However, even though these types of relationships were common, receiving anal sex was never a good thing and frowned upon.

 

[B_Jingoist]

the difference is, if someone discovers that a soldier is straight in their civilian life, they aren't penalized for it. if it's legitimately a non factor, then it shouldn't matter one way or the other. as long as you're not trying to pick up people on base or turning the marches into a dance number, what does it matter?

It shouldn't and doesn't matter. However as stated before, the idea is to remove everything possible which can differentiate individuals. There are somethings you cannot hide such as race, sex, hair color, basically physical appearance. But you can hide things like someones sexual orientation.

The fact is you lose certain rights when you volunteer to join the military because the collective goal of the military is far more important than the rights of an individual.

Lets face it, females have never and will never be completely integrated into the military. Until people are completely asexual, which will never happen, that will never happen. The same can be said for homosexuals.

Relationships within the military are frowned upon. Rarely do they ever turn positive and well adding another dimension to that just weakens the system even more. Not to mention it opens upon a whole flood gate for people filing discrimination charges against their superiors. It happens with all races and sexes right now, the vast majority of which are complete bullshit. If I don't know you are gay, I can't discriminate against you and it just makes it easier on us all.

 

[D_Eddie Withagun]

receiving anal sex was never a good thing and frowned upon.

Maybe super glide lube hadn't been invented yet

 

[Stephenmass]

If I don't know you are gay, I can't discriminate against you and it just makes it easier on us all.

So a gay guy has to hide his sexuality and a str8 guy does not Jingo? Bullshit!

Maybe you have to take off your blinders the same as some of the others that may feel the same way!

 

[B_Jingoist]

So a gay guy has to hide his sexuality and a str8 guy does not Jingo? Bullshit!

Maybe you have to take off your blinders the same as some of the others that may feel the same way!

Yes, because no matter what anyones feelings on homosexuality are, I couldn't give two shits what someone does in their bedroom (as long as all participants are of age and willing) it isn't the norm. It is the exception.

And until anyone can prove that allowing homosexuals to serve openly improves the effectiveness and lethality of the United States Military, then the current policy should remain in effect.

 

[B_Jingoist]

Maybe super glide lube hadn't been invented yet

My point was that receiving anal sex was viewed as being subservient and basically removing ones manhood.

 

[B_OtterJoq]

Jingoist: Redheads make me nervous. Let's keep redheads out of the military. I don't want to serve alongside one of those creepy gingers.

After all...they're not the norm, they're the exception, right?

Sheesh. Still so far to go in this country.

 

[B_Jingoist]

Jingoist: Redheads make me nervous. Let's keep redheads out of the military. I don't want to serve alongside one of those creepy gingers.

After all...they're not the norm, they're the exception, right?

Sheesh. Still so far to go in this country.

Strawman.

 

[TurkeyWithaSunburn]

Have you ever been in the military? We are not a group of individuals and until you have seen firsthand what 'individuals' can do to the organization of the military I suggest you think twice on what you call laughable.

No one has the right to serve in the military.

It is laughable. Individuals are what make up a group. You can't help but notice in a group differences. Be they height, weight, eye color, abilities, rings on a persons finger etc. Take a bunch of individuals put them together and you have a great group that can shoot. Oh forgot to mention half of them are former gangbangers and the rest are redneck hunters.

If homosexuals are so dangerous then why doesn't booting them out during a time of war supercede a stop/loss order, as happened during the Gulf War?

And besides the military in a democratic nation does whatever the fuck the politicians tells it to do. Whether it wants to or not. Many comparisons have been said about blacks and integration in the military. And how much of what the opposition said was pure and total bullshit?

 

[B_Jingoist]

It is laughable. Individuals are what make up a group. You can't help but notice in a group differences. Be they height, weight, eye color, abilities, rings on a persons finger etc. Take a bunch of individuals put them together and you have a great group that can shoot. Oh forgot to mention half of them are former gangbangers and the rest are redneck hunters.

If homosexuals are so dangerous then why doesn't booting them out during a time of war supercede a stop/loss order, as happened during the Gulf War?

And besides the military in a democratic nation does whatever the fuck the politicians tells it to do. Whether it wants to or not. Many comparisons have been said about blacks and integration in the military. And how much of what the opposition said was pure and total bullshit?

You also obviously haven't been in the military.

You make stupid assumptions about the military( Gangbangers and Rednecks)

And you once again mention only physical differences. Being black is not the same as being gay. You cannot hide being black, you can hide being gay. They are fundamentally different. Sexual preference will never be equal in any way, shape, or form to a genetic appearance trait.

And once again, a physical trait is much different than a sexual preference. One cannot stop being black, however one CAN stop engaging in homosexual sex.

The point is that I don't give a shit if everyone thinks they are a special little snowflake. You join the military I don't give a shit what you like to do or who you are. If you put yourself above the goals of the military YOU ARE WRONG. The military is not a social experiment. It does not have to be fair. It can and does except or deny whomever it determines capable or incapable of serving.