Gays versus Fags

[splitface]

I proposed this in chat the other day, and quite a few people agreed with me.
I said that there was a definable difference between those people who are gay, and those people who are fags. We basically came out with this (rather fuzzy, I know) model:

Gays:
Do NOT want to be called fags. Ever.
Into 'bromances' ie homosexual attractions and love, but usually no sex
Not always just straight or just gay, still have sex with women
Spend a good deal of time trying to keep others finding out about their homosexuality, often in the closet permanently, yet have no problem vocalizing it when they think there is no chance of those they know finding out.


Fags:
Often don't mind being called fags. (the 'Fag Hag' from Eating Out, anyone?)
Worry about whether their shirt goes with their pants
Other assorted gay behaviors, like excessive interior decorating, having 'the lisp', taking a long time to order pizzas....
These are the flamers.

I, personally, fit into the 'gay' portion of this model.

Please, suggest additions and edits to the model; quote the model in your post and have your way with it, then classify yourself (unless you are straight or female, obviously.)

 

[slurper_la]

I don't believe anyone who identifies as 99% gay could possibly agree with any of those definitions.

 

[splitface]

that is truly beside the point. My answer to the orientation question is obviously inaccurate insomuch as we are restricted to just a few choices, and can't really upload a biography to explain. However, I feel that my answer still satisfies the model.

 

[jeff black]

I personally think these two catergories are too limiting.

Plus, is the word "fag" actually considered appropriate to call someone? I mean, why would you call yourself a fag, it seems to have such a negative connotation.

The definition of gay seems to suggest a more closeted gay. I'd never call myself a fag, but if i was 100% gay, I'd never hide myself either.

 

[MH07]

Your premise is flawed.

"Fag" is a perjorative term, very akin to the "N" word. I know many African American individuals who use the N word jokingly among themselves, but would not appreciate being called that by white people (or even hearing the word used in conversation).

It's the same with "Fag". My friends and I might use the term jokingly among ourselves, but I don't like, don't appreciate, and will not tolerate the term being used AT me. It is offensive.

"Gay" is a term used by homosexuals in the 50's and 60's as a codeword to help identify each other. The community adopted it as the preferred term of address.

So, to put that in context of your remarks: All Gay People are Fags and all Fags are Gay people. The terms do not describe individual behaviours (although both refer to men who prefer sex with other men).

I am Gay, but I do care whether my pants go with my shirt. I also am attracted to men and LOVE having sex with them; conversely, I've not had sex with a woman for 30 years but wouldn't turn it down.
,
I do not want to be called Fag, EVER. I am not into "bromances". I am very closeted professionally, of necessity; personally, it depends (no need to upset my parents or other elderly relatives who wouldn't understand, but ALL of my personal friends, gay and straight, know; all the relatives my age plus all my nieces and nephews know; I wish I hadn't told my sister, she keeps trying to fix me up with various guys and it's like, "Honey, thank you, but you are never going to understand my "type", judging from the ones you've picked for me over the years".)

I don't feel the need to wear a shirt that says, "I AM GAY" but don't go out of the way to hide it, either---I just act pretty much like everybody else. I work, I pay bills, I buy groceries, I pay taxes, I wash the car, I take the dogs to the vet, I mow the lawn, I worry about the economy; I live in the suburbs (used to live in the "Gay-hto" in my 20's, but have no need to do that any more; tired of the crime and noise, and I don't feel the need to live in the gay bar any more).

When I have a boyfriend, I don't drool all over him in public; I think that's gross whether gay or straight. Get a room. (Now, when in private, let's just say he knows I love him and am attracted to him.) By the same token, I don't make any particular secret that we are together. All my neighbors (mostly my age and all straight) know I'm gay and don't give a shit one way or the other.

You're trying to turn apples into oranges. You're trying to create categories that just don't exist.

 

[Steve26]

I'm straight but care whether my shirt matches my pants and can (sometimes) take a while deciding what pizza I want.

Steve

 

[canuck_pa]

I can not agree with splitface's definition. I don't fit into either of the definitions and and don't know anyone that does.

 

[drumstyck]

Other assorted gay behaviors, like excessive interior decorating, having 'the lisp', taking a long time to order pizzas....

stop stealing from David Cross "bri-bri, do you want chèvre?"

 

[jjsjr]

I guess I'd consider myself a "fag" under your definition...
and I'm a little offended by this. It's not a word I choose to toss around so leisurely.
I'm in complete agreement with MH07 a few posts ahead of me.

It sounds to me that the OP has never been chastised for being gay or is still uncomfortable with his own status being a fag. Someone needs to wake up to reality. We're all family honey... call one of us a fag... call all of us fags. (and this is coming from a bitch wearing heels)

 

[Novaboy]

People are what they are. All these terms, effeminate, gay, fag, straight acting (This one is particularly very insulting in my opinion.) You can't put people into narrowly defined groups. Everyone has many sides to their personality depending on the circumstances, who they're with etc. To judge someone buy the neatness of their shirt or how long they take to order pizza....!? And being closeted is not a sign of being "gay" or "fag" but a sign of readyness, comfort level which are all different to each individual depending on where they live, their upbringing and their own comfort levels.....

 

[TopDudeFtl]

Your premise is flawed.

"Fag" is a perjorative term, very akin to the "N" word. I know many African American individuals who use the N word jokingly among themselves, but would not appreciate being called that by white people (or even hearing the word used in conversation).

It's the same with "Fag". My friends and I might use the term jokingly among ourselves, but I don't like, don't appreciate, and will not tolerate the term being used AT me. It is offensive.

"Gay" is a term used by homosexuals in the 50's and 60's as a codeword to help identify each other. The community adopted it as the preferred term of address.

So, to put that in context of your remarks: All Gay People are Fags and all Fags are Gay people. The terms do not describe individual behaviours (although both refer to men who prefer sex with other men).

I am Gay, but I do care whether my pants go with my shirt. I also am attracted to men and LOVE having sex with them; conversely, I've not had sex with a woman for 30 years but wouldn't turn it down.
,
I do not want to be called Fag, EVER. I am not into "bromances". I am very closeted professionally, of necessity; personally, it depends (no need to upset my parents or other elderly relatives who wouldn't understand, but ALL of my personal friends, gay and straight, know; all the relatives my age plus all my nieces and nephews know; I wish I hadn't told my sister, she keeps trying to fix me up with various guys and it's like, "Honey, thank you, but you are never going to understand my "type", judging from the ones you've picked for me over the years".)

I don't feel the need to wear a shirt that says, "I AM GAY" but don't go out of the way to hide it, either---I just act pretty much like everybody else. I work, I pay bills, I buy groceries, I pay taxes, I wash the car, I take the dogs to the vet, I mow the lawn, I worry about the economy; I live in the suburbs (used to live in the "Gay-hto" in my 20's, but have no need to do that any more; tired of the crime and noise, and I don't feel the need to live in the gay bar any more).

When I have a boyfriend, I don't drool all over him in public; I think that's gross whether gay or straight. Get a room. (Now, when in private, let's just say he knows I love him and am attracted to him.) By the same token, I don't make any particular secret that we are together. All my neighbors (mostly my age and all straight) know I'm gay and don't give a shit one way or the other.

You're trying to turn apples into oranges. You're trying to create categories that just don't exist.

Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. The only difference between us; I am out professionally. I am who I am & not the least bit bothered by someone knowing it. Although I work in a very "straight-macho" industry. And please don't think this is in any way a dig on you; I appreciate your position is different than mine.

 

[Torque8]

I can not agree with splitface's definition. I don't fit into either of the definitions and and don't know anyone that does.

Tho I'm str8, I can't agree with that screwed up definition either. Of five buddies that are not "out", I'd be hard pressed to place any of them within such narrow confines.

 

[basque9]

To add a little perspective to the degree to which openly naming or calling someone of my generation a fag is pejorative, I can assure you that physical violence would probably ensue! Otherwise, I find the gay model too restrictive and isn't there a negative in the form of a "from" missing in your 4th tenet of being gay?

 

[SpeedoMike]

not a fan of the word fag, and don't see that the definitions are valid...

 

[rugbyguy14]

why do some people insist on labeling someones sexuality, as long as that type of mentality continues all it does is promote a division between the races, sexual orientation and gender

 

[biJackTex]

LAME!
yes, there are gays who act more/less one way than another.
i hope your rationalization has made you feel better about yourself.

 

[splitface]

stop stealing from David Cross "bri-bri, do you want chèvre?"

Picked up on that one did you XD

i guess I was wrong, and everyone is making great points here.
Please note that I did not, ever, ever, mean fag in it's derogatory fashion and I profusely apologize to anyone who was offended by the use of the word.

Furthermore, I now realize that "people are who they are" and I am sorry if anyone thought I was trying to label them.

Again... that sorry thing is supposed to be a common theme here.

Thanks for the input.

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

The model just sounds like you're well aware that there are stereotypical gay dudes and not so stereotypical ones out there.

On the outside, it just sounds like a contest to prove how manly you are despite liking other men, and it sounds like the standards are pretty ridiculous. My straight friends and I rib each other occasionally, but thankfully, I'm around a pretty good crowd. Most recently, a few of my friends have made a running joke about "gayin' it up," which is basically shorthand for getting drunk beyond comprehension and if there happens to be danceable music, we'll dance with each other. Oh, and maybe an ass smack or two. It's all out and out silly, but the whole time, in a good-natured way, we throw arms around each other, trade off who gets the next round, and just catch up.

It continues to throw me that gay dudes are probably harder on each other's masculinities than straight guys, and... I don't know... it sounds like it comes from a really insecure place. Not that I blame, hell nah. Gay guys get called "fag" and "sissy" and "girl" and who knows what else; fuck, anybody who doesn't have the macho swagger bullshit gets the same treatment. But I also think the first sign of healing past this is to accept wherever the hell you are on this femininity-masculinity continuum.

There's that kid on here with hairstyler hair dating that Sneaky guy, and there are guys who like women but care about their appearance, and there are likely genuine NASCAR fans out there. We're all on the earth, baby. It ain't a big deal. I have had more than a couple conversations with straight friends of mine who aren't the "prototypical male." Yeah, it sucks to get picked on, but you know, if you accept yourself as you are, there's no change to be made. And if you're whacked out about it, dude, it shows. I think people are good at detecting fakes and overexaggerations, too.

 

[MH07]

Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. The only difference between us; I am out professionally. I am who I am & not the least bit bothered by someone knowing it. Although I work in a very "straight-macho" industry. And please don't think this is in any way a dig on you; I appreciate your position is different than mine.

I'm sooooo jealous! (serious)

I wish I could, but really, in my industry (insurance), it is the death sentence for your career (still). Not as bad as it used to be (I remember when it was on-the-spot termination), but if they find out, your career will never advance. Women are making progress in our industry (maybe one day one of them might even make the executive suite! Woo-hoo!) as are African-Americans (they can actually be lower-level managers!!!! What can be next for them, UPPER level management!?!?!?! Wowsers, the mind boggles! Hispanics, Asians...have a ways to go yet).

I worked in the corporate HQ of the 11th largest insurance organization in the world. They received honour after honour from the "Gay Community" (meaning The Advocate and Out) for being in the top-10 "Gay-friendly places to work."

Yeah, well. I arrived in Corp HQ (having worked for them for years, closeted, in Texas, Tennessee, and Georgia) and was trying to fly "under the radar" until I got my bearings. One of the managers in a different division (related to ours) saw me and sent me an email inviting me to meet him at a (distant) restaurant for lunch. I did so. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that while the company SAID they were gay-friendly, and while you would NEVER get fired for being gay---if you wanted to advance, you had to hide in the closet and "straighten it up". He was out to them, and there were several others as well, but he knew from first-hand experience (and I observed it too, in my time there) that anything above "the 14th floor" (where we were) was the preserve of WHITE, anglo-saxon, preferably Protestant (although they slipped up and allowed both a Catholic and a Jew! Horrors!!! What were they thinking!!! Although the Jew was in finance....I guess they figured, "He's Jewish, he's good with money") MEN. And it was. It was amazing once you started watching for the pattern.

Oh, there was ONE African-American man who was a "real" VP, exec on the 20th floor. He was, "Vice-President in Charge of Diversity", and as far as anyone knew, his primary job---other than being black--- was picking out the clothes of the President and carrying his briefcase..... On 20, women wore skirts, made and served coffee, and were in strictly administrative roles.

So, if you were any colour other than white, any sex other than male, any orientation other than straight (and you needed to prove that by being married and having children, or at least be divorced with a trophy wife and children from a prior marraige), any religion other than Christian (with one exception, and that in itself was a stereotype), you needn't apply for any senior executive positions. Being a member of the right country club and playing golf helped.

So much for diversity.

So, I'm closeted for good with employers (especially here in Texas, where they had welcome-home parties for Dubya).

Everybody else (other than my few remaining elderly relatives and friends)? Naah. I could care less. As I say, I don't wear it on my sleeve, I just flat don't give a rat's rectum who thinks what about me any more.

My church (big Episcopal church here in Houston) is a very loving and accepting place, with open gays in all sorts of leadership positions. Having grown up Southern Baptist, I consider that real progress.

 

[TopDudeFtl]

I'm sooooo jealous! (serious)

It’s the only way I could live my life. I’ve been in trucking related businesses for the past 13 years. I’ve operated tow trucks, driven heavy-haul tractor-trailers & even owned my own tractor. I’ve always had the respect of my peers; mostly because I won’t take s**t from anyone. I remember when I worked for a large towing/transportation company in Miami; I was approached by a rather large Colombian dude who, at the very least, never minced words. He cornered me in the office & asked if I was a “fag”. I responded, “no, but my boyfriend is”. That comment took him by surprise & he told me “that’s cool, just stay away from me”. I then responded “don’t worry; you’re really not my type”. We worked well together, often joking with each other. I’d chase him around the yard telling him that one day he’d be my bitch. When I went from just being a truck driver to owning my own business still working with the same people, I wondered if there would be any animosity & whether they’d call on me. Thankfully, none of the people I worked with had any issues as I am more out now then before. I am a professional & good at what I do. What I do sexually or on my own time is my business. By the way; I am licensed in Florida as a life, health & annuities agent as well. :biggrin1: