Gays Who Hate Gay Culture
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If the bit about not liking the culture is the part where you are fingered as belonging and then persecuted for it, then I buy into that bit about not liking! If not liking the culture means I dislike being hated and discriminated against for belonging, then I buy into that bit too. Essentially , I am a loner in the respect you question, but I do not dislike or feel animosity toward anyone who finds strength in belonging to the group or to the culture! What works for one may not work for another! I read what Lex, Cigar Babe, Matthew,Forties Fun and others had to say..they make a lot of good sense to me!
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Bite me bitch... just because I don't want want to live in a gay ghetto.... how dare you compare me with that piece of shit... I don't deny i'm gay. i'm proud of it....but I don't buy into a gay lifestyle. I have friends who are gay, straight, bi and not sure. But one thing I am not is an an asshole like Cohen!
Mahlo
Thanks for understanding
Yes roy was an asshole. Sorry.
It was from a line in Angels in America where Roy said "I am not gay,I just have sex with men". Sorry for the misunderstanding:smile:
Speaking of over---how about Gay Getto
Is Mahlo like in Blahnik
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Thank you...I'm a product of someone who was hit by the schrapnel from the McCarthy era so I'm a litte sensetive about being compared to RC (when I was growing up we use to say that's who you get set up on a blind date with)
Anyway from 1952 to when the Beatles where on the Ed Sullivan Show is a sore subject with me!
Have a good night I'm signing off!
First thing I thought of when I started reading this thread was that if you took the sex out of gay culture then what you're left with is simply culture.
Robert Mapplethorpe caught a lot of shit over his photographs of gay sexuality. He was also a magnificent still life photographer and portraitist. I consider his work in these areas as among the best in the world. This is the work of a gay man not focusing on gay subject matter and the work becomes something that anyone would admire in a museum.
Gay culture is a facet of the many cultures in which we exist simultaneously. I live in a straight culture, a gay culture, an American culture, a New York culture, a preppy culture, a male culture, a business culture, and some can add to that other ethnic, artistic, or religious cultures. No single culture adequately describes us. I don't think any of them on their own completely describe who we are. Nor are any one of them completely satisfying to our needs in and of themselves.
Gay culture, by its definition, focuses on the sexual component of our lives. Problems arise when any one person forsakes all of his or her other cultures to the exclusion of one.
I know little of gay culture except what I've learned from media and my own very limited experiences. Much of what I'm learning about myself is assisted by the mere existence of a gay culture. I now have an urge to be around other gay men and women, to associate and speak freely, and act without fear of reprisal. To me, gay culture is very useful because I'm still in the stage of life where I'm getting something useful from it. I find it fulfills, at least in some instances, what I need to express and accept about myself. I'd love it if I could move to a gay ghetto tomorrow. I don't expect I'd live exclusively within its confines because I'm not just my sexuality. Maybe you live someplace where gays are so mainstreamed that the need for a separate place has passed. It isn't here, liberal as New York is, and it isn't in most of America. Here in my corner of the sticks gay culture is like a beacon, offering safety, reassurance, acceptance, and promise where it otherwise doesn't exist for people like me. While no single culture defines me, it's comforting to have one for something as publicly controversial as my sexuality. I'm not so naive to believe that gay culture will become the be and end all of my existence, but it is helpful for the one aspect of my life. Some parts of it I will reject, others I may accept. At least I'll be able to explore it because it's even there to begin with.
I don't wonder Earl, if you find gay culture empty because you're focusing on the negative aspects you experience. Sometimes I think you worry too much about being perceived as a straight man who happens to have sex with other straight men. You appear to resent that the vain twinks and flamer bois out there are the popular image of gay culture because their frequently unflattering interpretation of gay sexuality will somehow reflect on you. You are your own expression of your sexuality. It's no less (and no more) valid than all the other forms of gay sexuality. You're gay so it's not just a culture floating around out there somewhere. It's part of you. You're a card-carrying member of gay culture even if you feel you don't fit in with it. The other queers can't revoke your membership. You may not feel like most of the other members, but that doesn't mean you don't have something to offer. Do charity work, volunteer time or skills, publish a blog or write for a newsletter. Add your essence to that culture to make it more fulfilling for you and other men and women like you. You do make a difference. You're articulate, write well, and I know that when sparked you do precisely what you set your mind to accomplish; particularly when you're challenged. Don't let others define your gayness, don't let others tell you what you cannot do, and take pride in yourself as a gay man even if your sexuality doesn't fit the stereotype
33:I wonder who taught me that?).
The only way you'll escape gay culture is to not be gay and I don't think that's happening any time soon. All you can do is add your interpretation to that culture in a positive way even if it means walking down the streets of the gay section of town being just you. That's a worthwhile statement in itself.
Robert Mapplethorpe caught a lot of shit over his photographs of gay sexuality. He was also a magnificent still life photographer and portraitist. I consider his work in these areas as among the best in the world. This is the work of a gay man not focusing on gay subject matter and the work becomes something that anyone would admire in a museum.
Gay culture is a facet of the many cultures in which we exist simultaneously. I live in a straight culture, a gay culture, an American culture, a New York culture, a preppy culture, a male culture, a business culture, and some can add to that other ethnic, artistic, or religious cultures. No single culture adequately describes us. I don't think any of them on their own completely describe who we are. Nor are any one of them completely satisfying to our needs in and of themselves.
Gay culture, by its definition, focuses on the sexual component of our lives. Problems arise when any one person forsakes all of his or her other cultures to the exclusion of one.
I know little of gay culture except what I've learned from media and my own very limited experiences. Much of what I'm learning about myself is assisted by the mere existence of a gay culture. I now have an urge to be around other gay men and women, to associate and speak freely, and act without fear of reprisal. To me, gay culture is very useful because I'm still in the stage of life where I'm getting something useful from it. I find it fulfills, at least in some instances, what I need to express and accept about myself. I'd love it if I could move to a gay ghetto tomorrow. I don't expect I'd live exclusively within its confines because I'm not just my sexuality. Maybe you live someplace where gays are so mainstreamed that the need for a separate place has passed. It isn't here, liberal as New York is, and it isn't in most of America. Here in my corner of the sticks gay culture is like a beacon, offering safety, reassurance, acceptance, and promise where it otherwise doesn't exist for people like me. While no single culture defines me, it's comforting to have one for something as publicly controversial as my sexuality. I'm not so naive to believe that gay culture will become the be and end all of my existence, but it is helpful for the one aspect of my life. Some parts of it I will reject, others I may accept. At least I'll be able to explore it because it's even there to begin with.
I don't wonder Earl, if you find gay culture empty because you're focusing on the negative aspects you experience. Sometimes I think you worry too much about being perceived as a straight man who happens to have sex with other straight men. You appear to resent that the vain twinks and flamer bois out there are the popular image of gay culture because their frequently unflattering interpretation of gay sexuality will somehow reflect on you. You are your own expression of your sexuality. It's no less (and no more) valid than all the other forms of gay sexuality. You're gay so it's not just a culture floating around out there somewhere. It's part of you. You're a card-carrying member of gay culture even if you feel you don't fit in with it. The other queers can't revoke your membership. You may not feel like most of the other members, but that doesn't mean you don't have something to offer. Do charity work, volunteer time or skills, publish a blog or write for a newsletter. Add your essence to that culture to make it more fulfilling for you and other men and women like you. You do make a difference. You're articulate, write well, and I know that when sparked you do precisely what you set your mind to accomplish; particularly when you're challenged. Don't let others define your gayness, don't let others tell you what you cannot do, and take pride in yourself as a gay man even if your sexuality doesn't fit the stereotype
33:I wonder who taught me that?).The only way you'll escape gay culture is to not be gay and I don't think that's happening any time soon. All you can do is add your interpretation to that culture in a positive way even if it means walking down the streets of the gay section of town being just you. That's a worthwhile statement in itself.
Don't get me started. I live in a small town in Iowa, works for me. Get to Chicago every now and then, but always disappointed in the "gay humanity" I encounter there. Saw your photo. Real nice. I am older by 20 or so. The scene has not changed much sice i came out in 1966 at 15. Everybody wanted in my pants. I was kind to everyone, even though I may not have been attracted to them. Basic kindergarten stuff you know. Today's young gay men are a rude, undisciplined, catty, class. The culture is much the same as it was in the 60's, just more shallow, heartless, and frenetic. I don't and never have related well to the "gay community." That is a bullshit term if I ever heard one. There is no community, just cliques.
I don't wonder Earl, if you find gay culture empty because you're focusing on the negative aspects you experience. Sometimes I think you worry too much about being perceived as a straight man who happens to have sex with other straight men. You appear to resent that the vain twinks and flamer bois out there are the popular image of gay culture because their frequently unflattering interpretation of gay sexuality will somehow reflect on you. You are your own expression of your sexuality. It's no less (and no more) valid than all the other forms of gay sexuality. You're gay so it's not just a culture floating around out there somewhere. It's part of you. You're a card-carrying member of gay culture even if you feel you don't fit in with it. The other queers can't revoke your membership. You may not feel like most of the other members, but that doesn't mean you don't have something to offer. Do charity work, volunteer time or skills, publish a blog or write for a newsletter. Add your essence to that culture to make it more fulfilling for you and other men and women like you. You do make a difference. You're articulate, write well, and I know that when sparked you do precisely what you set your mind to accomplish; particularly when you're challenged. Don't let others define your gayness, don't let others tell you what you cannot do, and take pride in yourself as a gay man even if your sexuality doesn't fit the stereotype
The only way you'll escape gay culture is to not be gay and I don't think that's happening any time soon. All you can do is add your interpretation to that culture in a positive way even if it means walking down the streets of the gay section of town being just you. That's a worthwhile statement in itself.
As a young man I never felt at ease in the straight dating world for obvious reasons, a life I tried to lead in high school and college. After a difficult time accepting my own homosexuality I thought I would find some kind of comfort and acceptance in the gay world. It scared me when I found that I didn't fit in that world either. I felt alienated and alone and very depressed that there was no place I'd be accepted or fit. I just didn't find partying, drugs, fashion, cosmetics and turning 20 tricks a month very interesting. Of all the dance clubs I went to I never met anyone whom I was truly attracted to past a one night stand. Another thing that bothered me was that it was almost exclusionary of any straight people. I did, however, meet gay men outside the "culture" that I could relate to, developed some friendships and enjoyed. In short I found my niche. Despite the title of this thread I don't hate gay culture but rather am indifferent in participating in a lot of it. I don't feel threatened or insecure of being associated with gay men who are active in that culture. I enjoy things like the Pride Parade, Folsom Street Fair, dancing with men and gay rodeo. I don't visit any bars or the Castro very often because it's just not interesting for me.
I see my sexuality as a private matter not so much a political or cultural statement. I don't feel my sexuality pegs me to gay culture by default. I've had to create my own culture, find my own circle to make my home in the world. From many men I know my experience is not unique.
Then you have created your own manor in the gay fiefdom. Your contribution to gay culture is that niche you've carved for yourself. It may not be the most popular interpretation but it is yours. It's one of the many paintings in a large gallery show, different from most but still in the show because you're one of the artists in the group. As you've discovered, other men find what you're saying worthwhile because they find your interpretation meshes with theirs.
One very good friend of mine called me a few years ago at 2am one night in tears. He was a younger guy in his early 20s and he just kept saying, "You won't like me any more," "What's the worst thing in the world I could tell you?" I thought he had committed murder or molested a child or something but that wasn't it at all. He was prepared for me to hang-up on him. What he eventually said was, "I'm gay." I replied as casually as I could, "Is that all? Why do you think I would hate you for that? That took a lot of courage. I'm very proud of you. I hope you feel better." Then I told him, "Dude, I have sex with guys too." He was completely shocked but I felt good too. The subject had never come up between us before. He felt like crap though. He was a big hairy guy who couldn't get two looks in the gay clubs of Columbia, MO. He felt rejected entirely by that community because he wasn't anything like what he thought a gay man was supposed to be. I told him about the bears. He has never heard of bears or anything about the bear movement. He moved to Chicago, moved into Boys Town, and proceeded to become the biggest bear flag waver in the community. I think they had a hand in keeping him alive. He's lost a lot of weight now, has a great job, has a boyfriend, and feels like he's accepted as a gay man largely because he found out something I did; most young gay men have the self-esteem of a coffee mug with a perky maxim stenciled on the side. They feed themselves into a hedonistic world bent solely on satisfying their sensory urges to make up for what they lack in themselves due to the crap society fed them in the previous 18-20 years. For someone like my friend, the bear movement made a huge difference because it encompasses so many men NOT of the tweaked out twink variety.
An even older friend of mine, in his early 60s at the time, was also on the verge of ending it all because of the rejection he faced. He lives in Florida and had lived closeted until his mid 50s when he finally broke and told his wife who then promptly divorced him and took nearly everything he had. I introduced him to the bears and same deal. The bear movement isn't perfect and it has its ups and downs, intergroup discrimination and other things, but it is night and day from even ten years ago. Even if you aren't attracted to bears, the very fact they exist can be a wonderful discovery for we men who don't find the mainstream club-centered life remotely fulfilling.
The whole bear movement grew out of men with frustrations similar to yours but rather than just go back into their dens and suffer they went out and announced their presence. They, to paraphrase Howard Biel, "Were mad as hell and they weren't going to take it anymore!" That's what positive action for change can accomplish.
You're actually lucky in that you did find your own support network. I don't know if the bear community had any hand in that. Either way I'm happy you made it to where you are now. Do be aware, however, that many men live in places not remotely as tolerant as NYC or the SF Bay Area and, for them, the gay community, however dysfunctional, is a touchstone that at least can reassure, "There are others like me out there," whether they find their solace in the mainstream or the bear or leather or biker or whatever subcultures.
Yes it's exclusionary of most straight people because most gays don't have the best past experience with straight people but also because it is a culture built on a sexual orientation that straights do not share. That doesn't mean you have exclude straights. It's kind of hard not to. It's just an aspect of your cultural identity as a gay man that straights can only support, not join in with.
One very good friend of mine called me a few years ago at 2am one night in tears. He was a younger guy in his early 20s and he just kept saying, "You won't like me any more," "What's the worst thing in the world I could tell you?" I thought he had committed murder or molested a child or something but that wasn't it at all. He was prepared for me to hang-up on him. What he eventually said was, "I'm gay." I replied as casually as I could, "Is that all? Why do you think I would hate you for that? That took a lot of courage. I'm very proud of you. I hope you feel better." Then I told him, "Dude, I have sex with guys too." He was completely shocked but I felt good too. The subject had never come up between us before. He felt like crap though. He was a big hairy guy who couldn't get two looks in the gay clubs of Columbia, MO. He felt rejected entirely by that community because he wasn't anything like what he thought a gay man was supposed to be. I told him about the bears. He has never heard of bears or anything about the bear movement. He moved to Chicago, moved into Boys Town, and proceeded to become the biggest bear flag waver in the community. I think they had a hand in keeping him alive. He's lost a lot of weight now, has a great job, has a boyfriend, and feels like he's accepted as a gay man largely because he found out something I did; most young gay men have the self-esteem of a coffee mug with a perky maxim stenciled on the side. They feed themselves into a hedonistic world bent solely on satisfying their sensory urges to make up for what they lack in themselves due to the crap society fed them in the previous 18-20 years. For someone like my friend, the bear movement made a huge difference because it encompasses so many men NOT of the tweaked out twink variety.
An even older friend of mine, in his early 60s at the time, was also on the verge of ending it all because of the rejection he faced. He lives in Florida and had lived closeted until his mid 50s when he finally broke and told his wife who then promptly divorced him and took nearly everything he had. I introduced him to the bears and same deal. The bear movement isn't perfect and it has its ups and downs, intergroup discrimination and other things, but it is night and day from even ten years ago. Even if you aren't attracted to bears, the very fact they exist can be a wonderful discovery for we men who don't find the mainstream club-centered life remotely fulfilling.
The whole bear movement grew out of men with frustrations similar to yours but rather than just go back into their dens and suffer they went out and announced their presence. They, to paraphrase Howard Biel, "Were mad as hell and they weren't going to take it anymore!" That's what positive action for change can accomplish.
You're actually lucky in that you did find your own support network. I don't know if the bear community had any hand in that. Either way I'm happy you made it to where you are now. Do be aware, however, that many men live in places not remotely as tolerant as NYC or the SF Bay Area and, for them, the gay community, however dysfunctional, is a touchstone that at least can reassure, "There are others like me out there," whether they find their solace in the mainstream or the bear or leather or biker or whatever subcultures.
Yes it's exclusionary of most straight people because most gays don't have the best past experience with straight people but also because it is a culture built on a sexual orientation that straights do not share. That doesn't mean you have exclude straights. It's kind of hard not to. It's just an aspect of your cultural identity as a gay man that straights can only support, not join in with.
I do have friends similar to yours that would consider themselves "Bears" who have found a support and friend network within that gay subcommunity which has been a positive experience and life shaper. Being accepted into a community is a wonderful thing. Most from small towns I know have moved to larger cities to have that connection and meet other gay men.
The Bear community wasn't full blown when I was coming out so I wasn't really involved in that scene. I suppose that is the one subgroup that I fit in the best simply because I'm on the chunky side, white, and hairy. But in the end I find that community to be little different from most Gay sex subcommunities in that they are for the large part based solely on what you LOOK like and who you find sexually attractive as opposed to common interests. I am not attracted only to bear men and I would rather hang around people who are share my interests and activities. I'm not much for drinking beer and hanging around guys who just look like me. The Bear culture although they seem carefree and open to everyone the defacto culture is exculsionary of a lot of my friends who are Asian, Black, Latino and women simply because they don't look the part. That never worked for me. That's why I have my own circle and don't associate with the "gay" world very much.
I suppose the essence of "gay" culture always boils down to sex and the reality is I am more than my sexuality so it seems to follow that any "gay" culture would be limiting. But I can't deny that I do participate and enjoy parts of it because, yes, my sexuality is a big part of me, but certainly not all.
The Bear community wasn't full blown when I was coming out so I wasn't really involved in that scene. I suppose that is the one subgroup that I fit in the best simply because I'm on the chunky side, white, and hairy. But in the end I find that community to be little different from most Gay sex subcommunities in that they are for the large part based solely on what you LOOK like and who you find sexually attractive as opposed to common interests. I am not attracted only to bear men and I would rather hang around people who are share my interests and activities. I'm not much for drinking beer and hanging around guys who just look like me. The Bear culture although they seem carefree and open to everyone the defacto culture is exculsionary of a lot of my friends who are Asian, Black, Latino and women simply because they don't look the part. That never worked for me. That's why I have my own circle and don't associate with the "gay" world very much.
I suppose the essence of "gay" culture always boils down to sex and the reality is I am more than my sexuality so it seems to follow that any "gay" culture would be limiting. But I can't deny that I do participate and enjoy parts of it because, yes, my sexuality is a big part of me, but certainly not all.
right on, earl.
when it comes right down to it, fear is the culprit.
most gay guys are so fucking afraid of not measuring up
in one way or another. looks, body, dick size, social status, etc.
it's all pretty ridiculous and ironically, unattractive...yet i can understand how
so many get sucked into these intense subcultures/neighborhoods.
so many guys have never felt worthy...or truly masculine. i've found that most of the the bullshit stems from a fear of being too feminine.
that's why you see so much hyper-masculine behaviors and affectations.
anyway, the smartest, sexiest thing a man can do, in my opinion, is just
settle into who he is and go with it.
and, on a final, stereotypic note, i'd like to add that you're a sexy guy.
lol
take care,
joe
when it comes right down to it, fear is the culprit.
most gay guys are so fucking afraid of not measuring up
in one way or another. looks, body, dick size, social status, etc.
it's all pretty ridiculous and ironically, unattractive...yet i can understand how
so many get sucked into these intense subcultures/neighborhoods.
so many guys have never felt worthy...or truly masculine. i've found that most of the the bullshit stems from a fear of being too feminine.
that's why you see so much hyper-masculine behaviors and affectations.
anyway, the smartest, sexiest thing a man can do, in my opinion, is just
settle into who he is and go with it.
and, on a final, stereotypic note, i'd like to add that you're a sexy guy.
lol
take care,
joe
Hellboy0
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After reading this very long thread, I found it fascinating that most of us are reluctant to admit that our sexuality DOES define us in profound ways. We are creatures of flesh and intent (or spirit, if you will). Each defines the other and gives form to our actions. Stop thinking that it's a bad thing to be partly defined by your sexuality and find outlets that give you that opportunity. Thank god many of us live in countries where we can do this freely. And thank god that some of us past and present are outrageous enough to push against society's norms and create this free space to be safe in. The Gay Pride Parades, parties, etc, though sometimes viewed as one-sided in their presentation of what it means to be gay, have helped create legislation and awareness that was not there 50 years ago.
The older I get, I find that guys are guys not matter where they prefer to put their dicks. I've heard my straight friends being just as frustrated as earllogjam with what they perceive as a 'straight culture', with women that snub them for their shoes, and friends that give them shit because they don't want to watch fucking football all day.
This thread has lots of great, loaded questions within it but for me, it boils down to being comfortable with myself no matter what, and not being ashamed to be in part defined by my wonderful sexuality.
The older I get, I find that guys are guys not matter where they prefer to put their dicks. I've heard my straight friends being just as frustrated as earllogjam with what they perceive as a 'straight culture', with women that snub them for their shoes, and friends that give them shit because they don't want to watch fucking football all day.
This thread has lots of great, loaded questions within it but for me, it boils down to being comfortable with myself no matter what, and not being ashamed to be in part defined by my wonderful sexuality.
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I don't really care either way. I do the things I like doing and spend time with the people I like. Most of my pals are straight. That's simply because of who they are. They are the sort of people I like.
I don't need nor crave acceptance by anyone. I do however want people to know that because I'm gay I'm no different to them apart from what I enjoy in the bedroom. I've never wanted to confime myself to strictly gay circles. IMHO to do so lessens the chance of straight people understanding that you really are no different to them. I've no problem though with guys who do move in exclusivley gay circles. If that is what they are comfortable with them who am I to judge.
I don't need nor crave acceptance by anyone. I do however want people to know that because I'm gay I'm no different to them apart from what I enjoy in the bedroom. I've never wanted to confime myself to strictly gay circles. IMHO to do so lessens the chance of straight people understanding that you really are no different to them. I've no problem though with guys who do move in exclusivley gay circles. If that is what they are comfortable with them who am I to judge.
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Gay culture is a lot of what you see on this website: twinks, bears, glory holes, bathhouses, cruising parks, pride parades, etc. None of those things exist in the straight world. I've known gay men who are into the culture and not into the culture. The ones not into it are those who go about their everyday business, don't subscribe to the lifestyle, but just happen to be gay. I've found those men to be much happier.
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i can't say hate but i definitely can associate better with the straight men then the gay. maybe thats why im having such a hard time meeting people!?
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