General Peter Pace speaks...

[LeeEJ]

Here is my take. If I am so hated by a group of people, the LAST thing I want to do is give my life, literally, or in service, to that group. So, gay people, don;t go into the military. You are hated by that group, fuck them!

That's the other thing that I've been thinking. Say that I had a gay son who was thinking of enlisting. I'd have to sit him down and tell him, straight up, about the attitudes that I've seen, and that if he really does enlist, that he shouldn't be surprised if he feels 1000% uncomfortable within six months.

Gays should be welcomed into military service, but military personnel are often not welcoming to gays.

 

[B_Lightkeeper]

I was in the Air National Guard for several years. During my third Summer camp, we had to update our medical records so I decided to check the "magic block."
I got called in and questioned about the change and I admitted that I was gay. I had to go through several interviews and swore that I never had sex on the base (which I hadn't.) Fortunately, I received an honorable discharge.
I admit there were times I admired fellow airmen in the showers or lounging around in their boxer shorts but that did not affect my job performance or security clearance.
The thing that really pisses me off now is the fact that we (gays) pay the same tax brackets as straights yet we are classified as "second class" citizens or scum.

 

[DC_DEEP]

<...>
The thing that really pisses me off now is the fact that we (gays) pay the same tax brackets as straights yet we are classified as "second class" citizens or scum.

And are denied 14th Amendment rights?

 

[silentc]

Here is my take. If I am so hated by a group of people, the LAST thing I want to do is give my life, literally, or in service, to that group. So, gay people, don;t go into the military. You are hated by that group, fuck them! Why serve a government that so actively hates you and does everything in its power to discriminate against you? And make no mistake---they would just as soon kill you as acknowledge your existence. I personally am sick of giving my life to groups of people who turn around and kick you in the ass for the sake of their own ignorant predudices. You want to hate fags? Fine. You want to hate Jews? Fine. You want to hate black people? Asians? Women? THe Irish?the Friench? The Mormons? THe Catholics? The Protestents? Pick your group to make your feeble ass feel superior to--whatever. Fuck you. Predudice against an individual is valid--an asshole is an asshole. Predudice against a group that hasn't done shit to you, regardless of what any individual who happened to be a memeber of that group, is plain stupidity, and will destroy you and everybody around you. You want to bash me again? GO for it---but expect one of us to die in the process--I will do my best to make sure it is you. THe human race is so fucking stupid and self destructive we don;t DESERVE to continue as a species. So go ahead--destroy each other--maybe we will kill ourseves off as a species, and hopefully there will be enough of a planet left for a decent species to evolve. Maybe the dolphins--all they care about is eating, fucking, playing, and enjoying life. Sounds like the tight attitude to me.....

The military isn't just some group. It is the mechanism by which you, your family, your friends, and your country are protected and made secure. Nearly every thing they do is in the interest of having a more efficient fighting force better able to protect this country. If you think they're wrong about their policies (DADT), by all means try to change it. But please show a little respect.

I'd like to comment on your other points about humanity. I don't want to get too religious here, because I know Christianity isn't well thought of here. But this is what being "born into sin" means. Being born with a destructive and evil nature. So, you're right. We don't really deserve to continue as a species.

 

[Sklar]

I'd like to comment on your other points about humanity. I don't want to get too religious here, because I know Christianity isn't well thought of here. But this is what being "born into sin" means. Being born with a destructive and evil nature. So, you're right. We don't really deserve to continue as a species.

Without hijacking my own thread, I don't have an issue with Christianity. I have an issue with people who use their religion to push their own agenda down my non-Christian throat.

Speaking as a Jewish man, I am not born into sin as the Christian religon dictates to its followers. The very fact that I have had Christians tell me that I am "born into sin" without recognising that I am of a different religion, with different beliefs, is where true intolerance lays.

A bumper sticker sums it up best for me:

"Jesus save me from your followers."

 

[Matthew]

But please show a little respect.

Fuck you, asshole. I'll show respect when I'm shown it, and not one motherfucking second before.

 

[DC_DEEP]

The military isn't just some group. It is the mechanism by which you, your family, your friends, and your country are protected and made secure. Nearly every thing they do is in the interest of having a more efficient fighting force better able to protect this country. If you think they're wrong about their policies (DADT), by all means try to change it. But please show a little respect.

I'm a veteran, I've been there, I think I am qualified to make value judgements about how things are done in the military. Some of it is good, some is not. Please tell me about your military experience.

I'd like to comment on your other points about humanity. I don't want to get too religious here, because I know Christianity isn't well thought of here. But this is what being "born into sin" means. Being born with a destructive and evil nature. So, you're right. We don't really deserve to continue as a species.

Not a correct statement. We have several devout faithful on this board who are well liked, well respected, and thoroughly enjoyed. Perhaps you should chat with a couple of them to find out why you perceive a hostile environment, and they don't. I'm thinking there is a reason...

 

[silentc]

Fuck you, asshole. I'll show respect when I'm shown it, and not one motherfucking second before.

It is really sad that you don't realize the instrumental role the military has played in your life and what they've done to proect YOU. I also don't believe you're capable of showing respect, because the content nor the tone of my post were disrespectful, yet look at the disrespect you've shown me.

 

[silentc]

I'm a veteran, I've been there, I think I am qualified to make value judgements about how things are done in the military. Some of it is good, some is not. Please tell me about your military experience.Not a correct statement.

They're not perfect. I'm just saying that they're very important and should be respected because they are serving to protect our right to bicker on a message board, among other more important things.

We have several devout faithful on this board who are well liked, well respected, and thoroughly enjoyed. Perhaps you should chat with a couple of them to find out why you perceive a hostile environment, and they don't. I'm thinking there is a reason...

Probably because they don't talk very often. But in all seriousness, what was the reason for hostility like Matthew's higher in this post? Was that justified?

 

[DC_DEEP]

They're not perfect. I'm just saying that they're very important and should be respected because they are serving to protect our right to bicker on a message board, among other more important things.

You are including me when you say "they", aren't you? I served to protect your right to bicker on this message board. And you didn't answer my question.

Probably because they don't talk very often. But in all seriousness, what was the reason for hostility like Matthew's higher in this post? Was that justified?

Yes, actually they do, they are very active members. Like I said in my previous post, get in touch with some of the well-respected religious LPSG members, and ask them why they don't get hostile replys. I perhaps would not have been quite that hostile, but I'm not Matthew. He's entitled to his opinions. Plus, some of us are a little sensitive, after being told so often by "the other side" that our views are less important than theirs, and that we are less-deserving of citizenship than they are. Yeah, we get touchy.

You may not realize it, but some of your posts come across as fairly hostile and much less tolerant than you accuse others of being.

I would direct you to Lex's thread "Misinterpretation: The Bible and Homosexuality" to see some posts by at least one of our devout christians. Pay attention to both the content and style of his posts.

 

[silentc]

You are including me when you say "they", aren't you? I served to protect your right to bicker on this message board. And you didn't answer my question.Yes, actually they do, they are very active members. Like I said in my previous post, get in touch with some of the well-respected religious LPSG members, and ask them why they don't get hostile replys. I perhaps would not have been quite that hostile, but I'm not Matthew. He's entitled to his opinions. Plus, some of us are a little sensitive, after being told so often by "the other side" that our views are less important than theirs, and that we are less-deserving of citizenship than they are. Yeah, we get touchy.

You may not realize it, but some of your posts come across as fairly hostile and much less tolerant than you accuse others of being.

I would direct you to Lex's thread "Misinterpretation: The Bible and Homosexuality" to see some posts by at least one of our devout christians. Pay attention to both the content and style of his posts.

There's a lot of insinuation that I have a problem with homosexuality. I certainly don't, or I wouldn't be here. That aside, I'm getting my head absolutely torn off in another thread strictly about religion where I'm just describing my beliefs in a neutral way. None of these devout members have posted. Maybe they're not online. I don't expect people to check the boards daily, or even at all. I'm just saying, there's probably not as many Christians as you claim. There don't seem to be.

And of course I include you among those who have served to protect our right to bicker on a message board.

 

[DC_DEEP]

There's a lot of insinuation that I have a problem with homosexuality. I certainly don't, or I wouldn't be here. That aside, I'm getting my head absolutely torn off in another thread strictly about religion where I'm just describing my beliefs in a neutral way. None of these devout members have posted. Maybe they're not online. I don't expect people to check the boards daily, or even at all. I'm just saying, there's probably not as many Christians as you claim. There don't seem to be.

And of course I include you among those who have served to protect our right to bicker on a message board.

Don't worry, I'm getting my head torn off in another couple of threads because of my beliefs, in one thread because of my lack of belief, and in another thread because I distrust all politicians. When I say "I think Nancy Pelosi dropped the ball," one member in particular seems to think it's a personal attack on him and all that he believes in, and he proceeds to call me a BushBasher, and an ignorant liberal mush-head.

As an aside - your neutral presentation is not as neutral as you think, and I can guess why... but that's a topic for another thread. Hang in there. We all get gang-bashed from time to time.

And yes, there are several devout Christians on board here. Seek them out and ask advice.

 

[Lex]

Fuck you, asshole. I'll show respect when I'm shown it, and not one motherfucking second before.

Exactly. Respect is earned, not blindly given. Unless you are a solider and there exists chain of command, I suppose?

I'm a veteran, I've been there, I think I am qualified to make value judgments about how things are done in the military. Some of it is good, some is not. Please tell me about your military experience....

They seem to not care about your firsthand knowledge. Imagine if we dismissed Just Asking, Freddie, and PrepStud when we have religious discussions.

I respect people more when they can and do admit that even though they are a part of something, it has flaws and can and should be improved.

Blindly towing the line is bad karma.

It is really sad that you don't realize the instrumental role the military has played in your life and what they've done to proect YOU.

So we should just ignore all the WRONG it does because of some of its RIGHTS? How the hell does that sliding scale of moral righteousness work?
I'd like to know because it sure would help me excuse some of my poor behavior.

I also don't believe you're capable of showing respect, because the content nor the tone of my post were disrespectful, yet look at the disrespect you've shown me.

You don't know anyone here well enough to have formed these beliefs and have then be accurate. You are asking gay men and women to overlook the discrimination within the military because we (a) need a military, and (b) the military keeps us safe.

THAT, is bullshit. Problems can not be addressed if they are IGNORED.

To ask us to ignore them is tantamount to spitting on us-hence the tension you are feeling. Consider that.

 

[Freddie53]

None of these devout members have posted. Maybe they're not online. I don't expect people to check the boards daily, or even at all. I'm just saying, there's probably not as many Christians as you claim. There don't seem to be.

And of course I include you among those who have served to protect our right to bicker on a message board.

Well I am online now. I am a Christian. The Bible is our source it is true. But for many Christians the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) rank above the rest of the Bible. Jesus is the founder of Christianity. Jesus never condemned anyone except self righteous people. And he never condemned homosexuality. Jesus preached such things that we are loved as we love. Love they neighbor as thyself. Be kind to one another. And the list goes on. God wants people to love him and love others.

There is no room as I see it in Jesus' teachings for discrimination of any kind. Period. People in the military should be judged by their ability to do the job that they are assigned. Gay people or straight people are disciplined for unwelcome "hitting" on other soldiers.

A casual look at Lex's pics lets you know that a gay man can be extremely muscular. I'm sure that in battle Lex would rank at the top in ability. No doubt about it.

Let me ask a question here. You are in a battle and you are wounded.
Would you want a straight man who has also been wounded and is weak and dying try to take you to safety or would you prefer a gay man who has not been wounded that can pick you up in his arms and save your life? At that point do you really believe that hot sex is going to be on the mind of anyone in that battle scene. Are you as a wounded soldier really going to be concerned that the strong gay man is going to hit on you with blood all over your face and bullets flying all around?

Of course you will say what about the shower in camp? Well, if straight soldiers are as great on the battle field as you have indicated, I suspect that if a gay soldier hit on them, they could take care of it quickly.

Truth is most guys look at other guys to size them up. That is true if they are straight or gay. Being a soldier is being professional. Both gay and straight men can and should be professional soldiers. That is all it takes. Being professional.

 

[Shelby]

Is it impossible to imagine a soldier making a decision to try and save the life of his lover when it might not be the best thing to do for the squad as a whole?

 

[DC_DEEP]

Freddie, I've known you and Monty and JustAsking on this forum for a few years now, and even when I have disagreed with any of the three of you, I have never felt anger or animosity toward or from any of you. None of us has ever asserted that the other was wrong, we just state (and stand prepared to explain) our views, and we learn from each other. I think it comes from all of us understanding that more can be accomplished by showing respect - both for the person and for the differing point of view.

Two members regularly accuse me of hating and dismissing anyone of faith, but I think you can attest that it isn't factual.

Now, back on topic. Let me put forth this thought: the prohibition against gays serving openly in the military is usually justified by claiming that it would serve to degrade morale within the unit. This is just a vicious circle - the prevalent attitude is perpetuated by the upheld prohibition, which is perpetuated by the prevalent attitude.

I'm sure the same broader issues were going on with K Company, 394th Regiment, 99th Infantry Division - although back then it was race, not sexual orientation. (Google it if you want the reference).

Until the prohibition is lifted, the resistance will remain.

 

[fortiesfun]

Most men could carry me on their backs; most women can't. Guess which option is more likely to result in survival.

I'm surprised that everyone keeps letting this one slip. Why is this the only condition that matters when thinking about women in combat? They have greater stamina, and after prolonged stress, quicker reflexes. Frankly, I just as soon have someone protect my ass in the first place than be able to carry me out once it is too late.

I don't want to get too religious here, because I know Christianity isn't well thought of here.

Not a correct statement. We have several devout faithful on this board who are well liked, well respected, and thoroughly enjoyed.

Just adding a little support to DC's point. I am a faithful Christian, and an obnoxiously frequent poster. My experience is that Christianity is not given a free pass here, nor should it since it has a lot to answer for, but I've found respectful arguments receive respectful responses even when in opposition to my viewpoint.

Is it impossible to imagine a soldier making a decision to try and save the life of his lover when it might not be the best thing to do for the squad as a whole?

You are aware that is the reverse of the reason in classical antiquity that the Thebans especially sought out committed pairs? They'd stay and fight when the unattached would sprint to save their own asses. Or to reverse your question, is it impossible to imagine a straight soldier making a decision to save himself when it might not be the best thing to do for the squad as a whole?

 

[D_Dick_Dock_Doe]

I think the parody newspaper The Onion says it all when it comes to the General's remarks. From the "What do you think?" section:

Karen Bowen,
Home Health Care Assistant
"Eh—he said the same thing about peace talks and leaving civilian populations in tact."

 

[madame_zora]

Is it impossible to imagine a soldier making a decision to try and save the life of his lover when it might not be the best thing to do for the squad as a whole?

Well, then his lover would not have to be in the same squad, eh? Even many police departments do not allow couples to work together, that is a very separate issue from just being gay. You can't assume that just because someone is gay that EVERYONE is a potential love or sex interest!

 

[LeeEJ]

I'm surprised that everyone keeps letting this one slip. Why is this the only condition that matters when thinking about women in combat? They have greater stamina, and after prolonged stress, quicker reflexes. Frankly, I just as soon have someone protect my ass in the first place than be able to carry me out once it is too late.

The 120-lb girl in my section can barely run with her gear, let alone try to drag my 200-lb ass more than ten feet.