Genital size on a downward arc as intelligence is more treasured

scottbud

Cherished Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Posts
632
Media
9
Likes
431
Points
283
Location
North Shore Auckland New Zealand
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
All innovations on the earth come from Asia and those of European ancestry. Brain power is the genetic trait most treasured by evolution. Dick size is simply an afterthought on the evolutionary timeline.


Just off the top of my head two pretty good technical innovations, aircraft and nuclear power both developed in none of the countries you have mentioned but instead tiny little old New Zealand, its just unfortunate that at the time the country didnt have the money to develope them too. World leaders in training robotics engineers too.

AND WE ARE HUNG LIKE MULES!

for example 9bentpenis is a kiwi.

Your motives with this thread are clear as is your intellect.

I assume you refeer to the African plains as home.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

Account Disabled
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Posts
13,632
Media
0
Likes
73
Points
193
In that scenario, which appears to be the case for genetic traits we've studied in depth, the alleles that allow lactose and grain digestion already existed in the population at a certain level and only increased in prevalence after the selection pressure of increased lactose and grain consumption came about.

A great example of this is ear wax. There is a specific single nucleotide polymorphism that causes people to have dry as opposed to wet earwax. It seems that it's likely it existed in Africa ancestrally, but didn't become prevalent in any populations until humans reached Northeast Asia, where it for some reason went under a selection pressure (perhaps with the help of a Founder Effect) and became the major form of earwax (due to this single mutation). The mutation seems unlikely to have been de novo in that group, though, because it can be found in ancestral Africans, as well as in those of European descent, though at a far lower frequency.

I find all this fascinating, Guy-jin.
I've read this before, but couldn't imagine how dry as opposed to wet earwax would have a survival advantage.
I'm just curious.
Do you have any theories?
 

Wyldgusechaz

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Posts
1,258
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Actually, no, that's not completely accurate. What you said implies that mutations that cause tolerance for lactose or grain were acquired by groups that became agrarian earlier.

It's unlikely that's the case. What's more likely is that since those populations had a higher portion of lactose and grain in their diets earlier, genes that promote lactose and grain digestion would have been under selection pressure for longer, and therefore become more prevalent.

In that scenario, which appears to be the case for genetic traits we've studied in depth, the alleles that allow lactose and grain digestion already existed in the population at a certain level and only increased in prevalence after the selection pressure of increased lactose and grain consumption came about.

A great example of this is ear wax. There is a specific single nucleotide polymorphism that causes people to have dry as opposed to wet earwax. It seems that it's likely it existed in Africa ancestrally, but didn't become prevalent in any populations until humans reached Northeast Asia, where it for some reason went under a selection pressure (perhaps with the help of a Founder Effect) and became the major form of earwax (due to this single mutation). The mutation seems unlikely to have been de novo in that group, though, because it can be found in ancestral Africans, as well as in those of European descent, though at a far lower frequency.

I should say, feel free to correct me if you know for a fact otherwise about those specific phenotypes (lactose tolerance and grain digestion), but I can't think of a condition/genetic mutation that's prevalent in the any major population group (ie, not Founder populations, but overarching groups like "Black," "White" and "Asian") that is a recent mutation. Many of these polymorphisms stretch back to our primate ancestors, even.

What would explain this then?

5-alpha-reductase deficiency is a very rare condition (only reported in isolated populations in the Dominican Republic, New Guinea and Turkey) of genetic XY males with a poorly functioning enzyme which converts testosterone into the far more potent DHT. Individuals are often born with external genitals that look female and are raised as females. However, the massive surge of testosterone at puberty then triggers the final masculinization of the external genitalia and the descent of the testes. Hence, the common name given to the condition in the Dominican Republic, heuvodoces, which is Spanish for "eggs at twelve." These individuals are typically infertile and may need surgery to relocate the urethra.

Founder population? A dormant expression from our ape relatives that popped up in New Guinea, DR and Turkey? Or simple genetic mutation?

Why pale skin in cold climates? Vitamin D synthesis?

How did sickle cell trait and thalessemia get selected for?
 

Wyldgusechaz

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Posts
1,258
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
From JA

Where racism is defined as having an unfounded judgement on the inferiority of any particular race over another.

As for your comment about software innovation being a "European" thing, I assume you mean a Caucasian thing. end quote

I am positive I did not use the word inferior. You are but I did not. I did not even imply it.

And I did not say innovation was a caucasian thing. More likely an Asian thing or a cold weather thing. I mean there are lots of Caucasians in Australia, which gets a big zero, same with Brazil, Italy, Spain, Argentina, South Africa, New Zealand.

Finland and Luxemborg?

Patent Granted Countries, Top Patent Granted Countries, Top 10 Patent Granted Countries
 

Guy-jin

Legendary Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Posts
3,836
Media
3
Likes
1,367
Points
333
Location
San Jose (California, United States)
Sexuality
Asexual
Gender
Male
What would explain this then?

5-alpha-reductase deficiency is a very rare condition (only reported in isolated populations in the Dominican Republic, New Guinea and Turkey) of genetic XY males with a poorly functioning enzyme which converts testosterone into the far more potent DHT. Individuals are often born with external genitals that look female and are raised as females. However, the massive surge of testosterone at puberty then triggers the final masculinization of the external genitalia and the descent of the testes. Hence, the common name given to the condition in the Dominican Republic, heuvodoces, which is Spanish for "eggs at twelve." These individuals are typically infertile and may need surgery to relocate the urethra.

Founder population? A dormant expression from our ape relatives that popped up in New Guinea, DR and Turkey? Or simple genetic mutation?

It's an autosomal recessive mutation that only shows a phenotype in males. The people that have displayed it are typically the product of consanguineous unions, which is typical of rare recessive disorders. So inbreeding would be your answer.

Why pale skin in cold climates? Vitamin D synthesis?

There are light skinned native peoples of Africa. Before the dark skinned people all but completely took over the continent, they were a significant population. Those light skinned people were more nomadic, which makes it seems likely to me that those light skinned people migrated north to create the first group of humans to come out of Africa, and which simultaneously accounts for why the dark skinned people were able to take over (because they may had more advanced social structures, but I'll say that's all speculation). Light skin may have had some sort of selection pressure in the environments they arrived in, as well (think snowy areas where predators would have made out darker skinned individuals easier, etc.). There also could have been a Founder effect far back.


How did sickle cell trait and thalessemia get selected for?

Both cause resistance to malaria, even in carriers (meaning people with on copy of the gene who aren't symptomatic), which is an obvious selection pressure.


I find all this fascinating, Guy-jin.
I've read this before, but couldn't imagine how dry as opposed to wet earwax would have a survival advantage.
I'm just curious.
Do you have any theories?

Well, there's a theory that the cGMP transporter encoded by the gene that's responsible for wet or dry earwax determination is also vital to sweat excretion, because people who lack it apparently have reduced sweat production. It's possible that the people who migrated to Siberia were selected for based on their sweating phenotype (because they would have been climbing and sweating in a very cold climate, which is disadvantageous) and the earwax is a side-effect.

I think it's kind of a shabby explanation, myself. I actually would theorize that there was some kind of disease picked up by the people who colonized northern China after they domesticated pigs or some other animal there. It seems likely to me that a transporter protein mutation might lend resistance to a disease that utilizes that transporter protein for invasion of cells. To me, that seems more likely, because of how there seems to have been such a drastic selection pressure in that area. In my view, it would have been all-or-nothing and since the dry earwax mutation is recessive, all people with wet earwax would have died, and ended up leaving only the recessive form of the gene in the population. Of course, once that disease had nobody left to infect, it also would have died out.

Just a theory, though. The truth is, nobody knows!
 

jonfreak

Just Browsing
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Posts
7
Media
0
Likes
0
Points
221
Age
34
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
I actually think younger people gett bigger to because in food they put a lott of stuff like I dont know something that might affect our body to grow because if you look at older people when they were young and people who are young now they are much larger and down there probably to.
 

ucsb123

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Posts
118
Media
0
Likes
5
Points
163
Age
38
Location
California
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
From JA

Where racism is defined as having an unfounded judgement on the inferiority of any particular race over another.

As for your comment about software innovation being a "European" thing, I assume you mean a Caucasian thing. end quote

I am positive I did not use the word inferior. You are but I did not. I did not even imply it.

And I did not say innovation was a caucasian thing. More likely an Asian thing or a cold weather thing. I mean there are lots of Caucasians in Australia, which gets a big zero, same with Brazil, Italy, Spain, Argentina, South Africa, New Zealand.

Finland and Luxemborg?

Patent Granted Countries, Top Patent Granted Countries, Top 10 Patent Granted Countries

It is impossible to dispute the fact that Europeans and Asians have more patents, but to imply that this is genetic or based on climate is absurd. This has more to do with the sociological implications of the current North/South divide. Poor colonial administration and post colonial administration led to a global North (Europe and North America) and global South (Africa and Asia). IQ is a poor measure of intelligence. Many psychologists decry IQ as being based on wealth and race, not actual intelligence. Let's not base intelligence on race. Rather, look at the social situation on why the global South is worse off.
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
Well, there's a theory that the cGMP transporter encoded by the gene that's responsible for wet or dry earwax determination is also vital to sweat excretion, because people who lack it apparently have reduced sweat production. It's possible that the people who migrated to Siberia were selected for based on their sweating phenotype (because they would have been climbing and sweating in a very cold climate, which is disadvantageous) and the earwax is a side-effect.


I recall having a related discussion about this at a clinic a while back. I had an impacted wax problem due to an overly enthusiastic shower can you believe! I have the more normal (for Europe) wet cerumen (wax) type. We were chatting while the the nurse went for the water pulse thing and I asked if this was a common thing to which he replied, perhaps more with the dry earwax rather than the dry, explaining the difference.

I asked about how the variation came about (I do these things) and he said he didn't know why so much as how - it is due to a single switch in the ATP-binding cassette C11 gene (I had to look the name up again - all could recall was C11 and cassette). The gene switch was identified by Japanese scientists quite recently he said.

The single mutation is one where a G (guanine) molecule is replaced with an A (adenine) molecule in the DNA. Those inheriting a version of the 'A' gene from both parents have dry earwax. Those who carry two 'G' versions, or one 'G' and one 'A', are destined to live with wet earwax. So I suppose if an Inuit married a South African they'd be more likely to have wet wax children, who'd sweat a lot.

Over 95% of those with European and African ancestry have the wet wax and about the same (80-95%) of East Asians the dry (for South Asians, those from the Pacific, Native North Americans etc it's about 30-50%). If we did all come from Africa, it seems likely that the 'original' form was the wet.

It's thus likely that the dry form came later, and was carried across the bering straight from Siberia, perhaps 15,000 years ago. With it's ubiquity in Native Americans this seems plausible, especially when combined with other genetic evidence.

The Japanese scientists went on to suggest, (as did you) that the Gene's role in sweating was a factor that ensured it's prevalence among those in primarily cold climates where sweating isn't advantageous. Those in Africa and Europe where it is, tend to sweat more and have more pronounced body odour than those in East Asia. They disagree with you on that to some degree in the sense the sweating modification may have been cause enough. Perhaps as you suggest, a disease or other cause could have caused a fortuitous mutation, which being useful, was perpetuated. I
t's all but impossible to be certain

As was asked by Sr R,
it's not considered that ear wax or its type plays other than a very minor role in fitness, merely forming a barrier to dust and bugs, though it does have anti-bacterial properties. The variation of type coming only as a side effect of the mutation of the C11 Gene, itself brought about for other reasons.

Completely off topic but fascinating none the less.

 

snoozan

Experimental Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Posts
3,449
Media
0
Likes
22
Points
183
Sexuality
No Response
I've decided. I will not ever have sex with a man who has wet ear wax ever again. Thank you all for informing me of this topic. I now now that only those big dicked, poor, stupid Africans and their dirty white trash European cousins have this trait. I plan on putting this on all of my personal ads as well as carrying around with me a qtip and rubber gloves to examine any potential suitors' ears.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

Account Disabled
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Posts
13,632
Media
0
Likes
73
Points
193
I've decided. I will not ever have sex with a man who has wet ear wax ever again. Thank you all for informing me of this topic. I now now that only those big dicked, poor, stupid Africans and their dirty white trash European cousins have this trait. I plan on putting this on all of my personal ads as well as carrying around with me a qtip and rubber gloves to examine any potential suitors' ears.

So dry ear wax does have a direct survival advantage.
Stop the presses!!!
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
...I plan on ... carrying around with me a qtip and rubber gloves to examine any potential suitors' ears.

Unnecessary, you'll be able to see the sweat, and smell the BO way before you get close enough to need the Q-Tip. Unless of course Q-Tips are your thang, which while interesting I'm sure, is probably a topic for another thread.:rolleyes:
 

earllogjam

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Posts
4,917
Media
0
Likes
179
Points
193
Sexuality
No Response
Actually, no, that's not completely accurate. What you said implies that mutations that cause tolerance for lactose or grain were acquired by groups that became agrarian earlier.

It's unlikely that's the case. What's more likely is that since those populations had a higher portion of lactose and grain in their diets earlier, genes that promote lactose and grain digestion would have been under selection pressure for longer, and therefore become more prevalent.

In that scenario, which appears to be the case for genetic traits we've studied in depth, the alleles that allow lactose and grain digestion already existed in the population at a certain level and only increased in prevalence after the selection pressure of increased lactose and grain consumption came about.

A great example of this is ear wax. There is a specific single nucleotide polymorphism that causes people to have dry as opposed to wet earwax. It seems that it's likely it existed in Africa ancestrally, but didn't become prevalent in any populations until humans reached Northeast Asia, where it for some reason went under a selection pressure (perhaps with the help of a Founder Effect) and became the major form of earwax (due to this single mutation). The mutation seems unlikely to have been de novo in that group, though, because it can be found in ancestral Africans, as well as in those of European descent, though at a far lower frequency.

I should say, feel free to correct me if you know for a fact otherwise about those specific phenotypes (lactose tolerance and grain digestion), but I can't think of a condition/genetic mutation that's prevalent in the any major population group (ie, not Founder populations, but overarching groups like "Black," "White" and "Asian") that is a recent mutation. Many of these polymorphisms stretch back to our primate ancestors, even.

I have known several women who had no probems drinking milk products until a certain part of their life, one after giving birth to her daughter and one after puberty so I am more inclined to believe that the gene to digest milk is present in most people but there are other factors that switch the gene on and off and lactose intolerance is not the absence of a gene or a genetic mutation but rather the non-expression of it to make the necessary enzymes. If breast milk has lactose then all of us have that gene to digest milk when born.

As for the grain gene, haven't men be able to digest carbs for the longest time? Hunter gatherer societies have been eating root vegetables since the dawn of man I would think. We just can't digest cellulose like some animals like cows and horses can. So I think primates always had that gene and it was not acquired by humans via genetic mutation.
 

earllogjam

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Posts
4,917
Media
0
Likes
179
Points
193
Sexuality
No Response
I've decided. I will not ever have sex with a man who has wet ear wax ever again. Thank you all for informing me of this topic. I now now that only those big dicked, poor, stupid Africans and their dirty white trash European cousins have this trait. I plan on putting this on all of my personal ads as well as carrying around with me a qtip and rubber gloves to examine any potential suitors' ears.

There was this guy in high school that had wet ear wax and it was disgusting. Orange in color and he would scoop it out of his ear like Playdo. So I don't blame you for not wanting to whisper sweet nothings into a ear and have it respond.
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
There was this guy in high school that had wet ear wax and it was disgusting. Orange in color and he would scoop it out of his ear like Playdo. So I don't blame you for not wanting to whisper sweet nothings into a ear and have it respond.

It's not wet like treacle...it's just not dry and hard. That guy's ears do sound a bit icky though! It sounds like he had an overproduction or some other condition rather than normal ear wax. :biggrin1:

I don't know where you're from but from your gallery you don't appear Asian or Native American or from the South Pacific it's likely you have wet ear wax yourself...UGH!!!:tongue:
 

Guy-jin

Legendary Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Posts
3,836
Media
3
Likes
1,367
Points
333
Location
San Jose (California, United States)
Sexuality
Asexual
Gender
Male


I recall having a related discussion about this at a clinic a while back. I had an impacted wax problem due to an overly enthusiastic shower can you believe! I have the more normal (for Europe) wet cerumen (wax) type. We were chatting while the the nurse went for the water pulse thing and I asked if this was a common thing to which he replied, perhaps more with the dry earwax rather than the dry, explaining the difference.

I asked about how the variation came about (I do these things) and he said he didn't know why so much as how - it is due to a single switch in the ATP-binding cassette C11 gene (I had to look the name up again - all could recall was C11 and cassette). The gene switch was identified by Japanese scientists quite recently he said.

The single mutation is one where a G (guanine) molecule is replaced with an A (adenine) molecule in the DNA. Those inheriting a version of the 'A' gene from both parents have dry earwax. Those who carry two 'G' versions, or one 'G' and one 'A', are destined to live with wet earwax. So I suppose if an Inuit married a South African they'd be more likely to have wet wax children, who'd sweat a lot.

Over 95% of those with European and African ancestry have the wet wax and about the same (80-95%) of East Asians the dry (for South Asians, those from the Pacific, Native North Americans etc it's about 30-50%). If we did all come from Africa, it seems likely that the 'original' form was the wet.

It's thus likely that the dry form came later, and was carried across the bering straight from Siberia, perhaps 15,000 years ago. With it's ubiquity in Native Americans this seems plausible, especially when combined with other genetic evidence.

The Japanese scientists went on to suggest, (as did you) that the Gene's role in sweating was a factor that ensured it's prevalence among those in primarily cold climates where sweating isn't advantageous. Those in Africa and Europe where it is, tend to sweat more and have more pronounced body odour than those in East Asia. They disagree with you on that to some degree in the sense the sweating modification may have been cause enough. Perhaps as you suggest, a disease or other cause could have caused a fortuitous mutation, which being useful, was perpetuated. I
t's all but impossible to be certain

As was asked by Sr R,
it's not considered that ear wax or its type plays other than a very minor role in fitness, merely forming a barrier to dust and bugs, though it does have anti-bacterial properties. The variation of type coming only as a side effect of the mutation of the C11 Gene, itself brought about for other reasons.

Completely off topic but fascinating none the less.


Sounds like you read the paper! Those are the conclusions the group that published it came up with. The theory about it lending resistance to some unknown disease was just something I came up with that seemed more likely to me. But like you said, it's impossible to know right now.

That paper, in spite of being on the otherwise inane topic of earwax, is a great primer for modern genetics! I admit to finding the whole genetics demonstrating human migratory patterns to be immensely interesting myself, though. :smile:


I have known several women who had no probems drinking milk products until a certain part of their life, one after giving birth to her daughter and one after puberty so I am more inclined to believe that the gene to digest milk is present in most people but there are other factors that switch the gene on and off and lactose intolerance is not the absence of a gene or a genetic mutation but rather the non-expression of it to make the necessary enzymes. If breast milk has lactose then all of us have that gene to digest milk when born.

As for the grain gene, haven't men be able to digest carbs for the longest time? Hunter gatherer societies have been eating root vegetables since the dawn of man I would think. We just can't digest cellulose like some animals like cows and horses can. So I think primates always had that gene and it was not acquired by humans via genetic mutation.

This page may help answer your questions regarding lactose intolerance and what you encountered with your friend, earl: Lactose Intolerance

There was this guy in high school that had wet ear wax and it was disgusting. Orange in color and he would scoop it out of his ear like Playdo. So I don't blame you for not wanting to whisper sweet nothings into a ear and have it respond.


Also, psst... unless you're Chinese, Korean or Japanese, it's highly likely you're sporting wet earwax yourself, sir! :eek:

PS, this was an awesome earwax thread-jacking. :biggrin1:
 

earllogjam

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Posts
4,917
Media
0
Likes
179
Points
193
Sexuality
No Response
It's not wet like treacle...it's just not dry and hard. That guy's ears do sound a bit icky though! It sounds like he had an overproduction or some other condition rather than normal ear wax. :biggrin1:

I don't know where you're from but from your gallery you don't appear Asian or Native American or from the South Pacific it's likely you have wet ear wax yourself...UGH!!!:tongue:

No, I'm a white guy but I may have some Native American blood in me but certainly not any Asian. I always thought I had dry earwax because it isn't oozy. Never realized there was a flaky variety. I suppose its not something people actively want compare with a show and tell. :rolleyes:

This page may help answer your questions regarding lactose intolerance and what you encountered with your friend, earl: Lactose Intolerance

Thanks for the link Guy-jin.

Also, psst... unless you're Chinese, Korean or Japanese, it's highly likely you're sporting wet earwax yourself, sir! :eek:

PS, this was an awesome earwax thread-jacking. :biggrin1:

Yes, thanks for pointing that out to me. :rolleyes: Pot calling the kettle black. My earwax isn't orange however, nor do I scoop it out of my ear.

I'm waiting for the nose booger discussion next.