George Zimmerman not seeking 'Stand Your Ground' defense

Fuzzy_

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Zimmerman won't seek 'Stand Your Ground' hearing in April - U.S. News


George Zimmerman won’t seek criminal immunity next month under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law in the shooting death of unarmed black teen Trayvon Martin and instead will likely let a jury decide his fate. . . . defense attorney Mark O’Mara waived his right to use court time set aside for an immunity hearing,NBC station WESH reported. In that hearing a judge could have quickly cleared Zimmerman of any criminal liability under Florida law that allows lethal force for personal protection.

Zimmerman, a former neighborhood watch volunteer of white and Hispanic descent, has maintained he shot Martin on Feb. 26, 2012 in self-defense after Martin attacked him. He has pleaded not guilty to the second-degree murder charge.
Zimmerman's defense attorney, Mark O'Mara, said that Zimmerman believes it would be a better outcome to be found not guilty of murdering Martin by a jury of peers rather then be acquitted by an immunity hearing.

O'Mara may still use SYG during the trial and Zimmerman couls seek immunity to civil claims later. Even so, this seems like an awfully confident move.

What does everyone think?

Please keep in mind that any and all images, or videos including images, of Martin are not allowed to be posted or linked to on this site.
 
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Eric_8

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interesting because it seemed set in stone from jump street that SYG was going to be his defense.
 

ColoradoGuy

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Perhaps reviewing the text of the Florida 'Stand Your Ground' statute would be informative.

I think Zimmerman waived the SYG hearing because there is some pressing questions in applicability. Consider that Trayvon Martin, as a guest of a homeowner, had a right to occupy space within the common grounds of the HOA. While the genesis of the encounter between Zimmerman and Martin has never been fully explained or corroborated, it doesn't seem Zimmerman can justify his actions.

Look at the text of the statute:
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
Look at those two sub-paragaphs [(a) and (b)]. How could Zimmerman assert either of those?
 

redneckgymrat

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Subsection B, "or had reason to believe..." He has a chance, on that one.

As a member of the neighborhood watch, it is likely that he was familiar with the people who lived in the area. Trayvon did not. Given that, and the behavior reported by Zimmerman on the 911 call, he may be able to back up a claim that he had reason to believe that Trayvon was an intruder.
 

Bardox

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Lock his ass up. I don't care what justification he wants to use, he made the decision to get out of the truck and and go after a kid walking down the street. There is no reasonable defense. Fuck him.
 

Rubix

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Lock his ass up. I don't care what justification he wants to use, he made the decision to get out of the truck and and go after a kid walking down the street. There is no reasonable defense. Fuck him.

I agree, but not in such a harsh manner. If the Police were on the way, I think he should have just stayed watchful and let them handle the situation. If something serious began to transpire during the time in-between, then I could see reason to intervene.

Either way, it will be interesting to see what becomes of this.
 

theskindiver

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Lock his ass up. I don't care what justification he wants to use, he made the decision to get out of the truck and and go after a kid walking down the street. There is no reasonable defense. Fuck him.

Very intelligent comment. Could you elaborate on how you'd like to fuck him? Perhaps you should beat the man's head into the concrete some more.
 

ColoradoGuy

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Maybe he opted out of the SYG hearing because those are a pre-trial evidentiary hearing in front of a judge only, instead of a jury. If that's the case, this reasoning makes sense as to why he wouldn't want to face a judge alone. He lied in his bail hearing and the judge in the case revoked his bail and put him in jail.

The Christian Science Monitor said:
. . . having the judge in essence calling Zimmerman a liar before he even has a chance to take the stand in his defense may dramatically change the tenor and perception of the case by boosting the prosecution’s contention that Zimmerman is not a trustworthy person. Because Zimmerman is the only living witness to the exact events of that night, a jury will have to weigh his credibility as he defends himself against a crime that carries a maximum sentence of life in prison.
[Source]

A jury may be more lenient in a full trial. Just a theory.
 
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I think at a minimum he is guilty of stupidity, bad judgement, public endangerment, excessive use of force and manslaughter.
 

ColoradoGuy

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I think at a minimum he is guilty of stupidity, bad judgement, public endangerment, excessive use of force and manslaughter.

I agreed with you 100%. While the first two you mentioned are evident, they are immaterial.

'Public endangerment' is an interesting idea, but it probably won't get much airplay because Florida has the SYG law on the books and allows for 'concealed carry'.

'Excessive use of force' isn't a prosecutable offense and you usually hear it in connection with police brutality claims. Nonetheless, the asymmetrical fight between Zimmerman and Martin is notable. Martin didn't have a weapon, but Zimmerman's defense will point out that Martin got close enough to Zimmerman (without getting shot) to either punch him or push him to the ground. It was allegedly when Zimmerman was on the ground that he shot Martin. I don't think anyone knows for sure, yet. The SYG hearing would have provided those details, but it didn't happen.

Manslaughter may be the determination the jury eventually negotiates down to. We haven't heard the facts yet, but that's where I'd place my money. If there isn't some additional clarification added to SYG laws in the US in the aftermath of this case, it will be a shame.
 

Fuzzy_

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Manslaughter would have been State Attorney Angela Corey's best bet but it seems that -- due to overwhelming public pressure, including from President Obama -- she went for second-degree murder.

Since Zimmerman faces second-degree murder charges, so the prosecution will have to prove that he perpetrated Martin's death from a "premeditated design". It seems impossible to prove based on what little we know about the facts of the case as of now -- at least using the high standard of subjective testing. The prosecution's witnesses are increasingly showing themselves to be unreliable. Since Zimmerman's story is also unreliable, the Prosecution will have to rely heavily on physical evidence and expert witnesses.

Forensic analysis revealed that Zimmerman’s DNA was not under Martin's fingernails, conflicting with Zimmerman's claim that there was a sustained struggle. Martin's DNA wasn't found on the murder weapon, conflicting with Zimmerman's claim that Martin was trying to get a hold of his gun (thus, fearing for his life). On the other hand, images released by the defense show Zimmerman with a bloody face that could be consistent with such a struggle. However, Zimmerman claimed that Martin was hitting his head on pavement. Martin's body was found on the middle of a lawn, however. Also, shell casings were also found near the middle of the lawn. Even though casings can be thrown several feet away from the gun on discharge, it's still far from any hard surface.

On a personal note, the screams recorded by 911 from a neighbor's phone call don't sound like the screams of a grown man; they sound like the screams of a terrified young male... but Fuzzy's no expert.
 

ColoradoGuy

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Manslaughter would have been State Attorney Angela Corey's best bet but it seems that -- due to overwhelming public pressure, including from President Obama -- she went for second-degree murder.

Since Zimmerman faces second-degree murder charges, so the prosecution will have to prove that he perpetrated Martin's death from a "premeditated design". It seems impossible to prove based on what little we know about the facts of the case as of now -- at least using the high standard of subjective testing. The prosecution's witnesses are increasingly showing themselves to be unreliable. Since Zimmerman's story is also unreliable, the Prosecution will have to rely heavily on physical evidence and expert witnesses.

Forensic analysis revealed that Zimmerman’s DNA was not under Martin's fingernails, conflicting with Zimmerman's claim that there was a sustained struggle. Martin's DNA wasn't found on the murder weapon, conflicting with Zimmerman's claim that Martin was trying to get a hold of his gun (thus, fearing for his life). On the other hand, images released by the defense show Zimmerman with a bloody face that could be consistent with such a struggle. However, Zimmerman claimed that Martin was hitting his head on pavement. Martin's body was found on the middle of a lawn, however. Also, shell casings were also found near the middle of the lawn. Even though casings can be thrown several feet away from the gun on discharge, it's still far from any hard surface.

On a personal note, the screams recorded by 911 from a neighbor's phone call don't sound like the screams of a grown man; they sound like the screams of a terrified young male... but Fuzzy's no expert.

Fuzzy knows his stuff, which I why I enjoy reading his posts. I offered that the manslaughter conviction might be what the jury negotiates down to because I doubted the State can win on the 2nd degree murder conviction but I also doubted the jury would be willing to return an acquittal. However, I don't think I ever saw the original charges and if there isn't a lesser included offense of manslaughter, the State of Florida might be snookered.
 

ThaMagickJumpoff

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He will not be convicted of second-degree murder, because it wasn't. At the most, they realistically should have went for Manslaughter. But i believe it was self-defense. At the most, Zimmerman is at fault for irresponsiblity and lack of judgement, but people are forgetting one important element...Trayvon went back to confront Zimmerman about why he was following him. It's very plausible Trayvon got irritated and probably angry about that. And according to self-defense laws, if you FEEL like your life is in danger, you have the Right to defend yourself.
 

Fuzzy_

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He will not be convicted of second-degree murder, because it wasn't. At the most, they realistically should have went for Manslaughter. But i believe it was self-defense. At the most, Zimmerman is at fault for irresponsiblity and lack of judgement, but people are forgetting one important element...Trayvon went back to confront Zimmerman about why he was following him. It's very plausible Trayvon got irritated and probably angry about that. And according to self-defense laws, if you FEEL like your life is in danger, you have the Right to defend yourself.

Are you saying that Martin had a right to defend himself from Zimmerman because Martin believed that his life was in danger?

Martin may have confronted Zimmerman... but only after he was stalked in the dark. It's good that Trayvon may have had the guts to confront somebody who was shadowing him because people have a right to not be followed in areas where they are lawfully, peacefully enjoying.

As for who the aggressor was, things don't look good for Zimmerman. Not only Was Zimmerman armed, but he was a former bouncer, was much larger and he has a history of assaults. He was fired for being a bouncer because he was too aggressive. He threw his wife across a room.

Assuming that Martin was sane, it seems highly unlikely that he would have attacked a much larger person, especially since his only agenda was to get home quickly during half time, while Zimmerman's agenda was more sinister.

Here is a bit of a Daily News article about Zimmerman's temper and megalomania:
“Usually he was just a cool guy. He liked to drink and hang with the women like the rest of us,” he said. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped.” . . . “He had a temper and he became a liability,” the man said. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”. . . The year 2005 was a bad one for Zimmerman: he was arrested for fighting with a cop trying to arrest his friend for underage drinking, and he and his ex-fiancée took out protective orders against each other.
The former co-worker, who is no longer in touch with Zimmerman, said he was shocked to hear what happened Feb. 26 in a gated community in Sanford, Fla. . . . “He definitely loved being in charge. He loved the power. Still, I could never see him killing someone. Never,” he said.

There is a loud-but-small group of people who are exploiting this issue to portray black people as inherently criminal. They post menacing photos of Martin, show him flipping the bird, making gangsta signs, point to the fact that he has taken drugs or cursed on Facebook. All of these things seem to make him more normal, though. It was Zimmerman, after all, who had the criminal record, not Martin. It was Zimmerman and his wife who lied about their income. It was Zimmerman who was prone to snapping. It was Zimmerman who was the adult, and had the position of authority. It was Zimmerman who brought the gun into the situation. It was Zimmerman who ignored police advice and followed Martin. Whether Zimmerman is acquitted or not, it seems that he's at least partly to blame for what happened.

It's shocking how inept Corey is being. If she wanted a conviction, she should have gone for manslaughter -- and she would probably have won. Instead, she makes it almost impossible to win with the 2nd-degree murder charge. Then she releases confidential discovery information, then withholds evidence from the defense team. She deserves that fine. Ideally, this fine that the prosecution has to pay shouldn't affect the trial, but I am sure that it will.

 

Fuzzy_

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According to most reports, Trayvon was 6'2 with the physique of a grown man. He was no small teenager.
At 140 pounds Martin wouldn't have had much of a grown man's physique. He probably had a physique of a fit, 17-year-old male. Zimmerman was around 240 to 250 pounds at the time. Since he was a former bouncer, it seems sensible that he could have thrown a 140-pound kid off of him... assuming he was on him in the first place.

After all, Zimmerman threw a fully-grown woman across a room.
 

ThaMagickJumpoff

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At 140 pounds Martin wouldn't have had much of a grown man's physique. He probably had a physique of a fit, 17-year-old male. Zimmerman was around 240 to 250 pounds at the time. Since he was a former bouncer, it seems sensible that he could have thrown a 140-pound kid off of him... assuming he was on him in the first place.

After all, Zimmerman threw a fully-grown woman across a room.

According to witnesses, Trayvon was the one on top pounding on Zimmerman, so either Zimmerman cannot fight, or Trayvon was just simply able to overpower him.
 

Fuzzy_

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According to witnesses, Trayvon was the one on top pounding on Zimmerman, so either Zimmerman cannot fight, or Trayvon was just simply able to overpower him.

Why couldn't Zimmerman fight? Do you think a jury will believe that a guy who threw a woman across a room couldn't get a 140-pound person off of him?